- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>> It depends. Pharo 2.0 is UNSTABLE. It says it everywhere. If you want to do >> seriuous development you won't beusing Pharo 2.0, will you? ;) > > I talked about that few days ago with GermÃ¡n. The problem is not in > using of unstable version. The problem is that it is very easy to stop > to be in touch with Pharo now and within one year when the current > unstable version will become stable the developers will face to very > different system. That is one of the reason why GermÃ¡n choose Cuis for > his current projects. Developers want simple predictable system. Absolutely wonderful. So what people wants just the same. Ok but this is not Pharo. And and and again again again and again who is concerned by RPackage vs PackageInfo, systemNotifier vs. announcement, better monticello, better canvas, better Zincâ¦. I find that a totally false argument. > I do not think that the way out from this is to slow down. On the > contrary. We simply have to do this era of a lot of big changes as > short as possible ;-)

May 15, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>> I think we have to improve the foreknowledge about what will happen, > why it will happen, what it will mean, what are the related issues > etc. > I in most cases I have no clue about changes in package structure of > the image that are being performed and that require changes in Pharo > Kernel processing, initialization etc. As an example I can mention > recent CodeImporter integration. > > I like the improvements rate but as the side effect it makes Pharo > less attractive platform for serious development. Why? People should not develop in the bleeding edge of the system or at least they should know what they do. I use pharo bleeding edge daily and fix as soon as something goes wrong. Today we even improve Monticello browser feedback and version browsing. Stef

May 15, 2012

[Pharo-project] Smalltalkhub needs your quick in the ass :)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi guys Nicolas released internally a new version of smalltalkhub and everyday he finds a good reason not to announce it. So please do us a favorâ¦ create some projects and push your code there so that nicolas gets the feel of a alive and kicking smalltalkhub :) Stef

May 15, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Copying classes: breaking contract or not?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Thanks Busy stef (but escaping boring meetings for a while). > On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 5:31 AM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com> wrote: > It depends of the usage of copy... > If the purpose is to modify a class, then the copy will replace the > original in a short future, and you should better keep the > associations untouched and only change them in a final Namespace at: > className put: theClassCopy... > If the purpose is to create a new class, then yes, there's some > additional operation required. > But where will you bind the new association? Another namespace? > > I agree. If copy is supposed to create a fully-fledged copy then the Class>>copy method is broken in several ways: > - As Mariano noted, it doesn't copy CompiledMethods nor update their methodClass associations. > - It doesn't add the copy to the superclass's subclass > - the class has the same name as the original but isn't reachable from Smalltalk > > But if the use case is some temporary transformation, as Nicholas notes, then the method is ok. Except that "copy" is a really unhelpful name. This is a specialised copy for certain circumstances and the selevtor should reflect that. Anyone know what the use case this copy was written for is? > > It's clearly for the ClassBuilder. See SystemNavigation new browseAllCallsOn: #copy localTo: ClassBuilder. SO the comment could be more helpful, e.g. > > copy > "Answer a copy of the receiver without a list of subclasses. > This copy is used by the ClassBuilder when mutating classes on redefinition. > (SystemNavigation new browseAllCallsOn: #copy localTo: ClassBuilder)" > > find attached. > > > > > Nicolas > > 2012/5/13 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: > > yes, this looks like a bug. > > But i would recompile all methods of copied class, so all these > > nuances is handled. > > > > On 12 May 2012 14:04, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> > >> On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 12:41 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse > >> <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> On May 12, 2012, at 12:05 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > >>> > >>> > Hi guys. The last literal of a instance-side compiled method always > >>> > points to the SAME (#==) association of the class in Smalltalk global. > >>> > The literals of a compiled method that refer to class variables refer to > >>> > the same association (#==) of the classPool of its class: > >>> > > >>> > self assert: ((GRPlatform class >> #current) literalAt: 1) == > >>> > (GRPlatform classPool associationAt: #Current). -> true > >>> > > >>> > However, if I do a copy of the class: > >>> > > >>> > | copy | > >>> > copy := GRPlatform copy. > >>> > self assert: ((copy class >> #current) literalAt: 1) == (copy classPool > >>> > associationAt: #Current). > >>> > > >>> > this is not true anymore. Of course, you can see this because of the > >>> > Class >> #copy implementation: > >>> > > >>> > So my question is....is #copy breaking the contract (and therefore it > >>> > has to be fixed) or this is not mandatory for the system (as it is with the > >>> > last literal pointing to classes)? > >>> > >>> since namespace binding are shared between method literal and namespace, I > >>> think that this is a bug. > >>> > >> > >> I did this workaround > >> > >> Class >> rebindClassVariablesInMethods > >> > >> self class methodDict valuesDo: [ :aCompiledMethod | > >> 1 to: aCompiledMethod numLiterals-2 do: [ :index | > >> | literal | > >> literal := aCompiledMethod literalAt: index. > >> literal isVariableBinding ifTrue: [ > >> (self innerBindingOf: literal key) ifNotNil: [:aBinding | > >> aCompiledMethod literalAt: index put: aBinding > >> ] > >> ] > >> ] > >> ] > >> > >>> > >>> Stef > >>> > > >>> > Thanks, > >>> > > >>> > -- > >>> > Mariano > >>> > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Mariano > >> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Best regards, > > Igor Stasenko. > > > > > > > -- > best, > Eliot > > > > > -- > best, > Eliot > > > > > -- > best, > Eliot > > <Class-copy.st>

May 15, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Pharo-consortium] We need your Pharo successes

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Thanks Esteban for your cool slides: https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/30774/lawsuit3slides.pdf https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/30773/ibizlog3slides.pdf We want more! Stef

May 15, 2012

[Pharo-project] Pharo 1.3 - Build # 35 - Failure!

by jenkins-pharo.ci.inria.fr＠jenkins-server.lille.inria.fr

May 15, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo on Stackexchange

by Igor Stasenko

On 15 May 2012 13:49, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 15 May 2012 12:23, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> >> On May 15, 2012, at 1:18 PM, Frank Shearar wrote: >> >>> On 15 May 2012 12:10, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: >>>> On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> With the dev mailing list slowly getting out of control ;) we should think of >>>>> means of communication with the masses! >>>>> >>>>> I created stackexchange proposal which needs YOUR support: >>>>> >>>>> http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/40717/pharo?referrer=gXC4FWspxSud… >>>>> >>>>> we need now: >>>>> - 60 Followers >>>>> - 40 questions with some answers! >>>>> >>>> It seems that this will not work: someone is tagging all questions as >>>> "can be asked on Stackoverflow" >>>> and requests to close the area. >>>> >>>> So I think we will have to install our own thing instead. >>> >>> If what you want is something other than a QA site, absolutely. >>> >>> If you want a QA place, I don't see why people can't just use SO: >>> there are already 113 questions tagged "pharo" there, and all people >>> need do is... just ask your question there. It's one more thing you >>> don't need to write/install/maintain, and one LESS thing for you to >>> track: lists, RSS feeds, newsgroups, QA sites, ... >> >> >> I did not have an account on StackOverflow until 1 hour ago. >> It's one more thing in itself, and I don't see how a big mess of questions >> helps of all topics in the world will help us. >> >> We need somethign focussed. > > http://stackoverflow.com/feeds/tag/pharo would probably be exactly > what you'd want, possibly with > http://stackoverflow.com/feeds/tag/smalltalk just to catch non-Pharo > questions that could be answered from a Pharo perspective. > > But yes, I guess there is a cost in that you need an SO account to ask > questions. Having paid that cost long ago, I didn't think about that. SO account? what is it? I authorized with OpenID. So registering is few clicks. I think we don't need separate site. SO is just fine. I added 'smalltalk' tag into my favorites, and i get notified by mail every time there's a new question > > frank >> >> Â Â Â Â Marcus >> >> >> -- >> Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de >> >> > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

May 15, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo on Stackexchange

by Nicolas Cellier

I perceive SO answers as rather high-quality. Maybe it's just due to the rating, but I recommend this site professionally. Of course, you may think that Smalltalk already implies high-quality, and that the community is too small for having reliable rating... Nonetheless I'd say +1 for SO Nicolas 2012/5/15 Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>: > > On May 15, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Frank Shearar wrote: >>> >>> I did not have an account on StackOverflow until 1 hour ago. >>> It's one more thing in itself, and I don't see how a big mess of questions >>> helps of all topics in the world will help us. >>> >>> We need somethign focussed. >> >> http://stackoverflow.com/feeds/tag/pharo would probably be exactly >> what you'd want, possibly with >> http://stackoverflow.com/feeds/tag/smalltalk just to catch non-Pharo >> questions that could be answered from a Pharo perspective. >> >> But yes, I guess there is a cost in that you need an SO account to ask >> questions. Having paid that cost long ago, I didn't think about that. >> > To me it feels like if every open source project would just use one > Bug tracker because there are tags... while I already thing that > I want sub-projects on the current one. > > I personally don't think that tagging subsumes grouping. > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Marcus > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de > >

May 15, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo on Stackexchange

by Nicolas Cellier

2012/5/15 Frank Shearar <frank.shearar(a)gmail.com>: > On 15 May 2012 12:23, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> >> On May 15, 2012, at 1:18 PM, Frank Shearar wrote: >> >>> On 15 May 2012 12:10, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: >>>> On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> With the dev mailing list slowly getting out of control ;) we should think of >>>>> means of communication with the masses! >>>>> >>>>> I created stackexchange proposal which needs YOUR support: >>>>> >>>>> http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/40717/pharo?referrer=gXC4FWspxSud… >>>>> >>>>> we need now: >>>>> - 60 Followers >>>>> - 40 questions with some answers! >>>>> >>>> It seems that this will not work: someone is tagging all questions as >>>> "can be asked on Stackoverflow" >>>> and requests to close the area. >>>> >>>> So I think we will have to install our own thing instead. >>> >>> If what you want is something other than a QA site, absolutely. >>> >>> If you want a QA place, I don't see why people can't just use SO: >>> there are already 113 questions tagged "pharo" there, and all people >>> need do is... just ask your question there. It's one more thing you >>> don't need to write/install/maintain, and one LESS thing for you to >>> track: lists, RSS feeds, newsgroups, QA sites, ... >> >> >> I did not have an account on StackOverflow until 1 hour ago. >> It's one more thing in itself, and I don't see how a big mess of questions >> helps of all topics in the world will help us. >> >> We need somethign focussed. > > http://stackoverflow.com/feeds/tag/pharo would probably be exactly > what you'd want, possibly with > http://stackoverflow.com/feeds/tag/smalltalk just to catch non-Pharo > questions that could be answered from a Pharo perspective. > > But yes, I guess there is a cost in that you need an SO account to ask > questions. Having paid that cost long ago, I didn't think about that. > > frank You get a google account, facebook, or something, then the cost is approximately 4 clicks in your favourite web browser Nicolas >> >> Â Â Â Â Marcus >> >> >> -- >> Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de >> >> >

May 15, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo on Stackexchange

by Francois Stephany

+1 > Why not simply use stackoverflow and tag your questions with "pharo"? > > frank >

May 15, 2012