- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Smalltalkhub needs your quick in the ass :)

by Janko MivÅ¡ek

Dne 16. 05. 2012 09:09, piÅ¡e Stefan Marr: > Looks very nice. But betting 100% on AJAX is probably not a good idea for Google rankings. > > Google current entry looks like: > """ > SmalltalkHub > www.smalltalkhub.com/ > Loading. Please wait. New Session Configure Halos Profile Memory XHTML 0/0 ms. > """ > > The cached screenshot also indicates that it wont be able to find any of the hosted projects. > Reminds me a bit of the good old times with Flash... Agree, this is a step back from previous version of StHub and I hope Nico will rethink it a bit. Why not a plain HTML pages with Amber/JavaScript generated content only for things that really need that? Also, I hope a code browser with REST URL for every package, class and method is also coming, so that we will be able email links to the code, or post it on IRC, blogs... Note that GitHub has currently an advantage over StHub because it is SEO friendly and Google searchable. If StHub won't be, we lost a big opportunity here. And because of recent Dale's progress I would then rather think about migrating everything to GitHub instead. Best regards Janko -- Janko MivÅ¡ek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Pharo-users] Smalltalkhub needs your quick in the ass :)

by Norbert Hartl

Am 15.05.2012 um 23:23 schrieb StÃ©phane Ducasse: > Hi guys > > Nicolas released internally a new version of smalltalkhub and everyday he finds a good reason not to announce it. > So please do us a favorâ¦ create some projects and push your code there so that nicolas gets the feel > of a alive and kicking smalltalkhub :) > I think the core functionality is usable. But the whole site is not welcoming. The start page should be a site overall dashboard that shows a summary of the current activity. More important even is a working search. At the moment you just get a javascript alert window. It is just impossible to find another project at the moment. So I don't even know if there are any :) Just try to go to the site without an account and try to find/do anything. Norbert

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by Fernando Olivero

I've recently read the book on UI usability [1], were the author states that after ten years of performing user evaluations and studies, he can assert that "people stick to the first thing that works". Maybe that's the reason behind this aversion to change. I totally agree with Marcus and others, Pharo1.3 is FROZEN. So why work on the BLEEDING EDGE, if you cant cope with a changing system. Fernando [1] Dont make me think, Steve Kruger. On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 9:49 AM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > On May 16, 2012, at 9:23 AM, Pavel Krivanek wrote: > >> On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 11:29 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse >> <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >>>>> It depends. Pharo 2.0 is UNSTABLE. It says it everywhere. If you want to do >>>>> seriuous development you won't beusing Pharo 2.0, will you? ;) >>>> >>>> I talked about that few days ago with GermÃ¡n. The problem is not in >>>> using of unstable version. The problem is that it is very easy to stop >>>> to be in touch with Pharo now and within one year when the current >>>> unstable version will become stable the developers will face to very >>>> different system. That is one of the reason why GermÃ¡n choose Cuis for >>>> his current projects. Developers want simple predictable system. >>> >>> Absolutely wonderful. So what people wants just the same. Ok but this is not Pharo. >>> And and and again again again and again who is concerned by RPackage vs PackageInfo, >>> systemNotifier vs. announcement, better monticello, better canvas, better Zincâ¦. >>> I find that a totally false argument. >> >> I will quote GermÃ¡n (I hope he will not mind): "lot and lot of >> things... Lot of new things each day. > > Part of that is that I started the project "tweet something about Pharo every day". > some 15 months? ago... my idea was that we need to make public what > happens because most people's perception was : Smalltak is dead. > > If people want I can stop. > >> Not time to stabilize nothing. > > Pharo 1.4 is frozen. We just fix bugs. The same with 1.3. Or even 1.2... > >> Is needed such acceleration? ... My point is, I'm trying to move a >> business with Smalltalk and the acceleration of Pharo is well know by >> me (from other companies) and sooner or later, impact in my job and >> I'm a very LITTLE software house can't migrate my products all the >> time." >> > You should *not* migrate. That's the idea. Just as one uses a (in the future > unchanging Cuis, I am sorry to hear that), you can use an unchaning Pharo 1.4, > or 1.3. > Only when your project needs it, (because you actively with manpower develop it > for a longer time), you can move to a new version. > >> We simply have to accept that some developers can have this feelings >> and try to find a way how to limit it. I think that some official >> Pharo blog (maybe written by Esteban) would be very helpful. Some kind >> of not very extensive technical information source that will help >> people to stay in touch with Pharo progress. That will explain what is >> being changed in Pharo and why. I think that developers than will see >> the changes like positive not as alien ones. >> > > What I think is problematic: Peopler are against Change. But when somone > nevertheless does it, build a great system, the same people that did not allow > us to move will gladly abandon the old system for the new system. > Cuis is a good example. According to the Philosophy of German, it should not exist. > > Maybe we should partition the *mailinglist* by stable and unstable? > This way people using the stable don't see the noise and can focus... > > Â Â Â Â Marcus > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de > >

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by Guillermo Polito

On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 9:49 AM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>wrote: > > On May 16, 2012, at 9:23 AM, Pavel Krivanek wrote: > > > On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 11:29 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse > > <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >>>> It depends. Pharo 2.0 is UNSTABLE. It says it everywhere. If you want > to do > >>>> seriuous development you won't beusing Pharo 2.0, will you? ;) > >>> > >>> I talked about that few days ago with GermÃ¡n. The problem is not in > >>> using of unstable version. The problem is that it is very easy to stop > >>> to be in touch with Pharo now and within one year when the current > >>> unstable version will become stable the developers will face to very > >>> different system. That is one of the reason why GermÃ¡n choose Cuis for > >>> his current projects. Developers want simple predictable system. > >> > >> Absolutely wonderful. So what people wants just the same. Ok but this > is not Pharo. > >> And and and again again again and again who is concerned by RPackage vs > PackageInfo, > >> systemNotifier vs. announcement, better monticello, better canvas, > better Zincâ¦. > >> I find that a totally false argument. > > > > I will quote GermÃ¡n (I hope he will not mind): "lot and lot of > > things... Lot of new things each day. > > Part of that is that I started the project "tweet something about Pharo > every day". > some 15 months? ago... my idea was that we need to make public what > happens because most people's perception was : Smalltak is dead. > > If people want I can stop. > > > Not time to stabilize nothing. > > Pharo 1.4 is frozen. We just fix bugs. The same with 1.3. Or even 1.2... > > > Is needed such acceleration? ... My point is, I'm trying to move a > > business with Smalltalk and the acceleration of Pharo is well know by > > me (from other companies) and sooner or later, impact in my job and > > I'm a very LITTLE software house can't migrate my products all the > > time." > > > You should *not* migrate. That's the idea. Just as one uses a (in the > future > unchanging Cuis, I am sorry to hear that), you can use an unchaning Pharo > 1.4, > or 1.3. > Only when your project needs it, (because you actively with manpower > develop it > for a longer time), you can move to a new version. > > > We simply have to accept that some developers can have this feelings > > and try to find a way how to limit it. I think that some official > > Pharo blog (maybe written by Esteban) would be very helpful. Some kind > > of not very extensive technical information source that will help > > people to stay in touch with Pharo progress. That will explain what is > > being changed in Pharo and why. I think that developers than will see > > the changes like positive not as alien ones. > > > > What I think is problematic: Peopler are against Change. But when somone > nevertheless does it, build a great system, the same people that did not > allow > us to move will gladly abandon the old system for the new system. > Cuis is a good example. According to the Philosophy of German, it should > not exist. > > Maybe we should partition the *mailinglist* by stable and unstable? > This way people using the stable don't see the noise and can focus... > Well, in part I thought that was the difference between -users and -project :). The problem is that we focus all the traffic in this mailing list which should be the bleedingEdge list. Me included sometimes use this mailing list to ask stuff that should go to StackOverflow or the -users list. So probably we should be more... ordered? and try to think where to post the info :). Guille > > Marcus > > -- > Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de > > >

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Pharo-users] Smalltalkhub needs your quick in the ass :)

by Norbert Hartl

Is there an issue tracker for smalltalkhub? help and news link at the top are dead! Norbert Am 15.05.2012 um 23:23 schrieb StÃ©phane Ducasse: > Hi guys > > Nicolas released internally a new version of smalltalkhub and everyday he finds a good reason not to announce it. > So please do us a favorâ¦ create some projects and push your code there so that nicolas gets the feel > of a alive and kicking smalltalkhub :) > > Stef

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Pharo-users] Smalltalkhub needs your quick in the ass :)

by Norbert Hartl

Am 15.05.2012 um 23:23 schrieb StÃ©phane Ducasse: > Hi guys > > Nicolas released internally a new version of smalltalkhub and everyday he finds a good reason not to announce it. > So please do us a favorâ¦ create some projects and push your code there so that nicolas gets the feel > of a alive and kicking smalltalkhub :) > How should it be alive is there wasn't a single announcement that it is supposed to be used? Norbert

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by Marcus Denker

On May 16, 2012, at 9:23 AM, Pavel Krivanek wrote: > On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 11:29 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse > <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >>>> It depends. Pharo 2.0 is UNSTABLE. It says it everywhere. If you want to do >>>> seriuous development you won't beusing Pharo 2.0, will you? ;) >>> >>> I talked about that few days ago with GermÃ¡n. The problem is not in >>> using of unstable version. The problem is that it is very easy to stop >>> to be in touch with Pharo now and within one year when the current >>> unstable version will become stable the developers will face to very >>> different system. That is one of the reason why GermÃ¡n choose Cuis for >>> his current projects. Developers want simple predictable system. >> >> Absolutely wonderful. So what people wants just the same. Ok but this is not Pharo. >> And and and again again again and again who is concerned by RPackage vs PackageInfo, >> systemNotifier vs. announcement, better monticello, better canvas, better Zincâ¦. >> I find that a totally false argument. > > I will quote GermÃ¡n (I hope he will not mind): "lot and lot of > things... Lot of new things each day. Part of that is that I started the project "tweet something about Pharo every day". some 15 months? ago... my idea was that we need to make public what happens because most people's perception was : Smalltak is dead. If people want I can stop. > Not time to stabilize nothing. Pharo 1.4 is frozen. We just fix bugs. The same with 1.3. Or even 1.2... > Is needed such acceleration? ... My point is, I'm trying to move a > business with Smalltalk and the acceleration of Pharo is well know by > me (from other companies) and sooner or later, impact in my job and > I'm a very LITTLE software house can't migrate my products all the > time." > You should *not* migrate. That's the idea. Just as one uses a (in the future unchanging Cuis, I am sorry to hear that), you can use an unchaning Pharo 1.4, or 1.3. Only when your project needs it, (because you actively with manpower develop it for a longer time), you can move to a new version. > We simply have to accept that some developers can have this feelings > and try to find a way how to limit it. I think that some official > Pharo blog (maybe written by Esteban) would be very helpful. Some kind > of not very extensive technical information source that will help > people to stay in touch with Pharo progress. That will explain what is > being changed in Pharo and why. I think that developers than will see > the changes like positive not as alien ones. > What I think is problematic: Peopler are against Change. But when somone nevertheless does it, build a great system, the same people that did not allow us to move will gladly abandon the old system for the new system. Cuis is a good example. According to the Philosophy of German, it should not exist. Maybe we should partition the *mailinglist* by stable and unstable? This way people using the stable don't see the noise and can focus... Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

May 16, 2012

[Pharo-project] Ward Cunningham interview

by Carlo

Hi I thought this was quite funny in an interview with Ward Cunningham on patterns: (full interview on Dr Dobbs http://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/240000393) "The job was really to take C++, which was a fairly static language, and show people how to write dynamic programs in a static language. That's what most of the patterns in that book were about. And in the process, patterns extended the life of C++ by a decade, which is not what I thought would happen. What I thought would happen is people, when they learned these patterns, would look at them and say, "Wow, these patterns are hard in C++ and they're easy in Smalltalk. So if I want to think in terms of these patterns, I might as well use a language where they're easily expressed." And extend the life of Smalltalk by a decade. But the opposite happened."

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by Pavel Krivanek

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 11:29 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >>> It depends. Pharo 2.0 is UNSTABLE. It says it everywhere. If you want to do >>> seriuous development you won't beusing Pharo 2.0, will you? ;) >> >> I talked about that few days ago with GermÃ¡n. The problem is not in >> using of unstable version. The problem is that it is very easy to stop >> to be in touch with Pharo now and within one year when the current >> unstable version will become stable the developers will face to very >> different system. That is one of the reason why GermÃ¡n choose Cuis for >> his current projects. Developers want simple predictable system. > > Absolutely wonderful. So what people wants just the same. Ok but this is not Pharo. > And and and again again again and again who is concerned by RPackage vs PackageInfo, > systemNotifier vs. announcement, better monticello, better canvas, better Zincâ¦. > I find that a totally false argument. I will quote GermÃ¡n (I hope he will not mind): "lot and lot of things... Lot of new things each day. Not time to stabilize nothing. Is needed such acceleration? ... My point is, I'm trying to move a business with Smalltalk and the acceleration of Pharo is well know by me (from other companies) and sooner or later, impact in my job and I'm a very LITTLE software house can't migrate my products all the time." We simply have to accept that some developers can have this feelings and try to find a way how to limit it. I think that some official Pharo blog (maybe written by Esteban) would be very helpful. Some kind of not very extensive technical information source that will help people to stay in touch with Pharo progress. That will explain what is being changed in Pharo and why. I think that developers than will see the changes like positive not as alien ones. -- Pavel >> I do not think that the way out from this is to slow down. On the >> contrary. We simply have to do this era of a lot of big changes as >> short as possible ;-) > >

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Smalltalkhub needs your quick in the ass :)

by Stefan Marr

Hi: On 15 May 2012, at 23:23, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > Hi guys > > Nicolas released internally a new version of smalltalkhub and everyday he finds a good reason not to announce it. > So please do us a favorâ¦ create some projects and push your code there so that nicolas gets the feel > of a alive and kicking smalltalkhub :) Looks very nice. But betting 100% on AJAX is probably not a good idea for Google rankings. Google current entry looks like: """ SmalltalkHub www.smalltalkhub.com/ Loading. Please wait. New Session Configure Halos Profile Memory XHTML 0/0 ms. """ The cached screenshot also indicates that it wont be able to find any of the hosted projects. Reminds me a bit of the good old times with Flash... Best regards Stefan -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

May 16, 2012