- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

[Pharo-project] User questions

by Sean P. DeNigris

I think the options we identified are: * StackOverflow * dedicated site - we seem not to fit stackexchange's guidelines - our own hosted site, possibly like http://ask.rascal-mpl.org/questions/ * Users mailing list The disadvantage of the users list vs. the other options is that the domain model is much weaker for questions/answers e.g. was it answered? does the community think it's a good answer? On the question of internal/external. I guess the big tradeoff is the visibility of something like SO (where the outside world will see the energy of Pharo's Smalltalk revival) vs. keeping control of the content. Of the two options available this second, which do we prefer to get started - SO, or the users list? Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/User-questions-tp4630513.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by Pavel Krivanek

On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 5:51 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > > StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote >> >> And can we have a private developer mailing-list :) >> > > What the heck are you guys talking about?! Everyone take a deep breath... > Here's the reality: > Â One person who is > Â Â a) not here to defend himself, and > Â Â b) (allegedly) not using Pharo > Â (allegedly) made an off-list comment that some developers (allegedly, > possibly including himself) may find it jarring that in a year, one could > find an unrecognizable latest version of Pharo. This, by the way, is true, > even if it may not change our vision or plans. It may be unrecognizable. > And, some developers *may* find that unsatisfactory. As we've already > established, people do not like change. > > Now, none of this seems like a reason for all this fuss. It's wasting our > time and energy, which is already at capacity making Pharo the system of our > dreams. Specifically, I think a private developers list would hurt Pharo > both psychologically and physically - we want as many eyes on the issues at > hand as possible. > > Finally, the SO/separate-stackexchange-site/dev/users issue is a separate > thing. If we're going to talk about mailing list discipline, let's stop > hijacking people's threads. Well said. I'm sorry for initiating this direction of discussion and my apologies to GermÃ¡n that he may be seen now in wrong light. I do not like the idea of the next separate mainling list. Remember huge amount of Squeak mailing lists in past. >From my point of view Pharo finally starts to do real changes. Till now it mainly focused on necessary cleanup of the system and a lot of small changes. And there is no wonder that now we want everything we prayed for as soon as possible. I understand that the tempo may be too fast for some people to follow and as a person that is taking care of Pharo Kernel I know the frustration it can sometimes bring. But it is an extreme case and normal developer should have much less amount of problems. -- Pavel > In closing: > * Let's all get back to work. People will react emotionally to the massive > progress (change) of Pharo. Duly noted, but it's in the damn manifesto ("Not > backward compatible" [1]). > * Maybe we can improve our communication process, both for the devs and > users. Let's discuss that. > > [1] http://code.google.com/p/pharo/ > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-is-exploding-tp4630233p4630489.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [update 2.0] #20076

by Sean P. DeNigris

EstebanLM wrote > > MC Speedup > Hooray! -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/update-2-0-20076-tp4630502p4630505.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

May 16, 2012

[Pharo-project] [update 2.0] #20076

by Esteban Lorenzano

20076 ----- Issue 5669: MC Speedup http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5669

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by Esteban Lorenzano

Hi, Yeah... but there is a point somewhere there: we need to improve our communication efforts... we need to start thinking as a "growing community" (because that's what I *feel* it is happening). So... which changes would be valuable? I think a developers blog is a good idea (I think we can try to keep it, and we can also ask some non-Lille stablished developers to also talk about what their are doing for Pharo... we are after all an Open Source project, when not everybody lives here, I can think in several names, but you all know them :) Also, I would like to move user questions to: users list or stackoverflow... Why? because that's the purpose of that list ;) So, this list will continue being like now, for the unstable development, but ppl can have a "safe" place where to ask about the stable version. Well... probably something like that would help to easy the development... I will try to start blogging about upcoming changes for Pharo 2.0 (and motives, what can you expect, etc.) right after PharoConf... lets hope that will help a little (not sure, if we take my english level into account, he). best, Esteban On May 16, 2012, at 5:51 PM, Sean P. DeNigris wrote: > > StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote >> >> And can we have a private developer mailing-list :) >> > > What the heck are you guys talking about?! Everyone take a deep breath... > Here's the reality: > One person who is > a) not here to defend himself, and > b) (allegedly) not using Pharo > (allegedly) made an off-list comment that some developers (allegedly, > possibly including himself) may find it jarring that in a year, one could > find an unrecognizable latest version of Pharo. This, by the way, is true, > even if it may not change our vision or plans. It may be unrecognizable. > And, some developers *may* find that unsatisfactory. As we've already > established, people do not like change. > > Now, none of this seems like a reason for all this fuss. It's wasting our > time and energy, which is already at capacity making Pharo the system of our > dreams. Specifically, I think a private developers list would hurt Pharo > both psychologically and physically - we want as many eyes on the issues at > hand as possible. > > Finally, the SO/separate-stackexchange-site/dev/users issue is a separate > thing. If we're going to talk about mailing list discipline, let's stop > hijacking people's threads. > > In closing: > * Let's all get back to work. People will react emotionally to the massive > progress (change) of Pharo. Duly noted, but it's in the damn manifesto ("Not > backward compatible" [1]). > * Maybe we can improve our communication process, both for the devs and > users. Let's discuss that. > > [1] http://code.google.com/p/pharo/ > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-is-exploding-tp4630233p4630489.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

May 16, 2012

[Pharo-project] Collection>>difference: behaviour in 1.4 (was [Moose-dev] Re: Jenkins build is still unstable: moose-latest-dev #972 )

by Ben Coman

'From Pharo1.4 of 18 April 2012 [Latest update: #14438] on 16 May 2012 at 11:15:20 pm'! !MOAbstractRegularTreeLayout methodsFor: 'hook' stamp: 'BenComan 5/16/2012 23:14'! doExecute: node | rootNodes btcdebug| alreadyLayoutedNodes := OrderedCollection new. rootNodes := self rootNodesFor: node nodes. nodesByLayer := OrderedCollection new. self flag: #btcdebug. "Regarding moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch emails 'Jenkins build is still unstable: moose-latest-dev #972' To isolate the issue, open a Transcript then generate the following in Mondrian Easel twenty times view shape label. view nodes: #(1 2 3 4 ). view edgesFromAssociations: { 1 -> 2. 1 ->3 . 3 -> 4}. view treeLayout. " btcdebug := rootNodes first. Transcript cr; crShow: '------------------------------'. Transcript crShow: 'B1>', (self childrenFor: btcdebug) asString. Transcript crShow: 'B2>', (self computeChildrenFor: btcdebug) asString. self layout: rootNodes atPoint: self leftGap @ self topGap atLayer: 1. self isLayered ifTrue: [ self rearrangeByLayers: node ]! ! !MOAbstractVerticalTreeLayout methodsFor: 'hook-private' stamp: 'BenComan 5/16/2012 23:02'! layout: aNodeCollection atPoint: aPoint atLayer: aNumber | treeSize childrenPosition x y middleOfTree | aNodeCollection isEmpty ifTrue: [ ^ 0 ]. x := aPoint x. y := aPoint y. alreadyLayoutedNodes addAll: aNodeCollection. self atLayer: aNumber add: aNodeCollection. aNodeCollection do: [ :each | self flag: #btcdebug. Transcript crShow: 'A2>', each asString. childrenPosition := y + each height + self verticalGap. treeSize := each width max: (self layout: (self computeChildrenFor: each) atPoint: x @ childrenPosition atLayer: aNumber + 1). middleOfTree := x + (treeSize / 2.0) - (each width / 2.0). each translateTo: middleOfTree @ y. x := x + treeSize + self horizontalGap ]. ^ x - aPoint x - self horizontalGap! !

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by Igor Stasenko

This topic went to strange direction. By saying that Pharo exploding i was not suggested to do anything (like creating new mailing lists/stack overflow etc). What i do today is focusing on tasks which i should and filter all other stuff. It is of course a bit frustrating that i cannot track all cool changes and innovations, but i can ask anytime and get response, if i need something. So, no big deal. As for staying on bleeding edge or using/not using Pharo: nobody forcing people to do it. If you like it, you use it, if you don't - you don't. Personally, i prefer seeing "i don't use pharo because it moves too fast" over "i don't use pharo because it don't have things i need" -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by Sean P. DeNigris

StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote > > And can we have a private developer mailing-list :) > What the heck are you guys talking about?! Everyone take a deep breath... Here's the reality: One person who is a) not here to defend himself, and b) (allegedly) not using Pharo (allegedly) made an off-list comment that some developers (allegedly, possibly including himself) may find it jarring that in a year, one could find an unrecognizable latest version of Pharo. This, by the way, is true, even if it may not change our vision or plans. It may be unrecognizable. And, some developers *may* find that unsatisfactory. As we've already established, people do not like change. Now, none of this seems like a reason for all this fuss. It's wasting our time and energy, which is already at capacity making Pharo the system of our dreams. Specifically, I think a private developers list would hurt Pharo both psychologically and physically - we want as many eyes on the issues at hand as possible. Finally, the SO/separate-stackexchange-site/dev/users issue is a separate thing. If we're going to talk about mailing list discipline, let's stop hijacking people's threads. In closing: * Let's all get back to work. People will react emotionally to the massive progress (change) of Pharo. Duly noted, but it's in the damn manifesto ("Not backward compatible" [1]). * Maybe we can improve our communication process, both for the devs and users. Let's discuss that. [1] http://code.google.com/p/pharo/ -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-is-exploding-tp4630233p4630489.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by Bernardo Ezequiel Contreras

i agree with francois, you already have two mailing lists. one for developers and one for users On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Francois Stephany < tulipe.moutarde(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Yes let us create a core-dev private mailing-list. >> > > > Please don't. > > Just force people to use pharo-users when the question does not fit the > criteria for pharo-project. > >

May 16, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo is exploding

by Francois Stephany

> 99% of the changes affects infrastructure and/or replace old tools. Why your work should be affected by that? > I migrated Seaside from 1.3 to 1.4 in 15'... and the "problem" was not Seaside-Pharo incompatibilities, but to adapt configuration to not load OB (just not choose those packages in the metacello config) > Other frameworks like Magritte and Pier ran out of the box. (well... Magritte-Mophic needed a small adjust... and that was like 5') > For more examples, my personal projects (I submitted 3 slides yesterday for two of them), are usually complex projects (both for web and desktop) and I migrated all of them in less than a morning work (I needed to update/modify my metacello configurations for that). +1 Migrating to 1.4 was not really painful for me neither. The only "problem" was that i had a "startup.st" file lying next to my image that was invoked when launching the VM. In 1.4 it is loaded automatically by Pharo so it was executed twice and messed up my configuration :p I've seen more painful migration (Ruby 1.8->1.9 anyone?).

May 16, 2012