- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] start thinking on summer release of Pharo 1.4

by Esteban Lorenzano

yes, Configurations Browser needs a little love too :P On Jun 17, 2012, at 12:44 PM, phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: > Who is his/her right mind would be able to make sense of this without > a lot of preexposure? And who the hell are those people? > > And figuring out they need to right click, followed by a load > configuration *and* stable version? Followed by a loooong wait. And if > there is no internet, well, it would freeze for a significant while. > > That's the feedback I get from people I try to get into the flow. Lots > of blank stares... along the lines of "What the heck are you doing?" > > Phil > > > 2012/6/17 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: >> >> On Jun 17, 2012, at 5:10 AM, Ben Coman wrote: >> >>> Is Nautilus under any consideration to be the default browser for your summer release at all, or are you firmly committed to OB? >>> I need to know this to continue updating Pharo By Example for 1.4. >> >> this is an interesting and important issue (much more than codenames, he). >> I will extend my latest answer, using what I know (maybe Benjamin has another idea, and would be good to know it): >> >> Nautilus is in development, there are some important functionalities that are not there yet, and some others that does not work properly. Refactors and Traits is the most important things I can think of now, but there are probably more. >> Also, Nautilus relies in RPackage, which was not ready for 1.4 (but will be ready for 2.0). And some other packages (like OB itself) can be not-loadable after installing Nautilus. >> To make all of this work in 1.4 can be a huge job (at least for RPackage, it is, I don't know for Nautilus). I know that RPackage cannot be backported without a lot of effort, but I don't know if Nautilus for 1.4 can be adapted to not use RPackage easily (which AFAIK, should be necessary to make it work propertly). >> >> So, I will like your work (which is IMO terribly important) would take Nautilus. But I also think that loading it for default in 1.4 is probably too much. >> Frankly, I don't know what to do now :) >> >> Esteban > > > > -- > Philippe Back > Dramatic Performance Improvements > Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: > phil(a)highoctane.be | Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog: > http://philippeback.be > > High Octane SPRL > rue cour Boisacq 101 > 1301 Bierges > Belgium > <PharoScreenshot.1.png>

June 17, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] start thinking on summer release of Pharo 1.4

by phil＠highoctane.be

The girl was attractive and that's why I talked to her. Light was faster than sound in her case, so I left. But, I wouldn't have spoken to her in the first place should she have been an ugly betty. That's just the way things go and why marketing focuses so much on packaging, even if it is an ugly mess inside (Microwave food anyone?) 2012/6/17 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: > i for Pharo 1.4.1 > no messy naming please. > > Let's care more about what we put under the hood, than on glossy cover. > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. > -- Philippe Back Dramatic Performance Improvements Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: phil(a)highoctane.be | Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog: http://philippeback.be High Octane SPRL rue cour Boisacq 101 1301 Bierges Belgium

June 17, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] start thinking on summer release of Pharo 1.4

by Igor Stasenko

i for Pharo 1.4.1 no messy naming please. Let's care more about what we put under the hood, than on glossy cover. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

June 17, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] start thinking on summer release of Pharo 1.4

by phil＠highoctane.be

Who is his/her right mind would be able to make sense of this without a lot of preexposure? And who the hell are those people? And figuring out they need to right click, followed by a load configuration *and* stable version? Followed by a loooong wait. And if there is no internet, well, it would freeze for a significant while. That's the feedback I get from people I try to get into the flow. Lots of blank stares... along the lines of "What the heck are you doing?" Phil 2012/6/17 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: > > On Jun 17, 2012, at 5:10 AM, Ben Coman wrote: > >> Is Nautilus under any consideration to be the default browser for your summer release at all, or are you firmly committed to OB? >> I need to know this to continue updating Pharo By Example for 1.4. > > this is an interesting and important issue (much more than codenames, he). > I will extend my latest answer, using what I know (maybe Benjamin has another idea, and would be good to know it): > > Nautilus is in development, there are some important functionalities that are not there yet, and some others that does not work properly. Refactors and Traits is the most important things I can think of now, but there are probably more. > Also, Nautilus relies in RPackage, which was not ready for 1.4 (but will be ready for 2.0). And some other packages (like OB itself) can be not-loadable after installing Nautilus. > To make all of this work in 1.4 can be a huge job (at least for RPackage, it is, I don't know for Nautilus). I know that RPackage cannot be backported without a lot of effort, but I don't know if Nautilus for 1.4 can be adapted to not use RPackage easily (which AFAIK, should be necessary to make it work propertly). > > So, I will like your work (which is IMO terribly important) would take Nautilus. But I also think that loading it for default in 1.4 is probably too much. > Frankly, Â I don't know what to do now :) > > Esteban -- Philippe Back Dramatic Performance Improvements Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: phil(a)highoctane.be | Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog: http://philippeback.be High Octane SPRL rue cour Boisacq 101 1301 Bierges Belgium

June 17, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] start thinking on summer release of Pharo 1.4

by phil＠highoctane.be

OB if we want traction with embarking new people into Pharo. Think about the feeling it would give when faced with incomplete/unstable in such a thing as the Browser for a new comer or someone who wants to convince "the powers" that Pharo is an interesting avenue to invest into. Nautilus is the shiny new thing. But OB has all the important things working and the refactorings do kind of work well. And what's wrong with OB after all? There are docs on how to leverage the thing to do our own extensions, which is good. (Glamour still too far fetched at my level). But OB is okay after going through the docs. Know what? At a minimum, it should be clear that one can load OB from the Configurations with just a DoIt from the initial workspace. The way it is now is too complicated to find out. Same thing with ProfStef, FFI etc And a warning telling about how long it would take and so on may be a great thing (Getting OB from the 1.4 metarepo is just taking a long while... and no one wanting to try things out in an overbusy schedule would be able to spend that time. Another point crossing my mind is that if you try this out during a commute in a train or place, you are stuck without network connection. A primed package-cache would be beneficial for that, at the expense of the release size). Spotlight would also benefit from an explanation (like hit Shift-Enter to invoke. In the beginning I was opening that in World and then had a look at the code to find out about the binding...) Know what, we may want to have a YouTube video going with the release and showing how to do that stuff and what to expect. I am volunteering to do it if you are interested. Phil 2012/6/17 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: > > On Jun 17, 2012, at 5:10 AM, Ben Coman wrote: > >> Is Nautilus under any consideration to be the default browser for your summer release at all, or are you firmly committed to OB? >> I need to know this to continue updating Pharo By Example for 1.4. > > this is an interesting and important issue (much more than codenames, he). > I will extend my latest answer, using what I know (maybe Benjamin has another idea, and would be good to know it): > > Nautilus is in development, there are some important functionalities that are not there yet, and some others that does not work properly. Refactors and Traits is the most important things I can think of now, but there are probably more. > Also, Nautilus relies in RPackage, which was not ready for 1.4 (but will be ready for 2.0). And some other packages (like OB itself) can be not-loadable after installing Nautilus. > To make all of this work in 1.4 can be a huge job (at least for RPackage, it is, I don't know for Nautilus). I know that RPackage cannot be backported without a lot of effort, but I don't know if Nautilus for 1.4 can be adapted to not use RPackage easily (which AFAIK, should be necessary to make it work propertly). > > So, I will like your work (which is IMO terribly important) would take Nautilus. But I also think that loading it for default in 1.4 is probably too much. > Frankly, Â I don't know what to do now :) > > Esteban -- Philippe Back Dramatic Performance Improvements Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: phil(a)highoctane.be | Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog: http://philippeback.be High Octane SPRL rue cour Boisacq 101 1301 Bierges Belgium

June 17, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] start thinking on summer release of Pharo 1.4

by Esteban Lorenzano

On Jun 17, 2012, at 5:10 AM, Ben Coman wrote: > Is Nautilus under any consideration to be the default browser for your summer release at all, or are you firmly committed to OB? > I need to know this to continue updating Pharo By Example for 1.4. this is an interesting and important issue (much more than codenames, he). I will extend my latest answer, using what I know (maybe Benjamin has another idea, and would be good to know it): Nautilus is in development, there are some important functionalities that are not there yet, and some others that does not work properly. Refactors and Traits is the most important things I can think of now, but there are probably more. Also, Nautilus relies in RPackage, which was not ready for 1.4 (but will be ready for 2.0). And some other packages (like OB itself) can be not-loadable after installing Nautilus. To make all of this work in 1.4 can be a huge job (at least for RPackage, it is, I don't know for Nautilus). I know that RPackage cannot be backported without a lot of effort, but I don't know if Nautilus for 1.4 can be adapted to not use RPackage easily (which AFAIK, should be necessary to make it work propertly). So, I will like your work (which is IMO terribly important) would take Nautilus. But I also think that loading it for default in 1.4 is probably too much. Frankly, I don't know what to do now :) Esteban

June 17, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] start thinking on summer release of Pharo 1.4

by phil＠highoctane.be

As a tribute to south america, why not pick up places, people, or events? There is for sure a wealth of names and a rich history. Would be great as lots of growth expected in that area of the world! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Argentina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chile Pharo Patagonia anyone? Phil 2012/6/17 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: > I prefer codenames and not number because numbering is boring. Just that. 1.4.1 is a stupid number that makes people believe that there will be a 1.4.2, etc... (because our mind is designed that way, inevitably). And if I want to realease an emergency fix, as this version is 1.4.1 next version will be 1.4.1.1 etc. > So, no, I prefer codenames over numbering. Also, I'm from southamerica, I know perfectly well than summer here is winter there. I also know something more: nobody cares there :) but if there are complains, I'm willing to change the code name for... I dunno, places where there are Faros. > > 1.4 Alexandria > 1.4 FinistÃ¨re > 1.4 Usuhaia :) > > as I said... I just don't care which code name, but I don't want numbers. > > (btw... I'm kinda happy that this is the biggest divergence in my proposal :P) > > On Jun 17, 2012, at 5:10 AM, Ben Coman wrote: > >> Sean P. DeNigris wrote: >>> EstebanLM wrote >>> >>>> I started thinking on next release of Pharo 1.4 (which will be code named >>>> "summer", not an ugly number). >>>> >>>> Re browsers... I would definitely include either OB or Nautilus. The default >>>> is just too limiting. Nautilus does seem to be in a pretty usable state now, >>>> and it'd be helpful for new users not to have to learn two browsers in two >>>> releases... >>>> >>>> >>>> >> -1 on code name "summer" since it is winter here in Australia. Â Also, were you considering the full name being: >> a) only "Summer" >> b) "Pharo Summer" >> c) "Pharo 1.4 Summer" >> >> For (a) and (b) - what happens next summer for a maintenance release of 2.0 ? Â Another code name could work. >> For (c), since an ugly number '1.4' is already included, I'd just stay with that as '1.4.1' > (c) was my idea, but if place-codenames are taken, we can use a different names each times. > >> >> Also for consideration with using a code name rather than a version number, the two I know off... >> Ubuntu - increments each release with a letter of the alphabet, so it is still easy to see the progression. >> Eclipse - used the code name for the simultaneous release of multiple projects all having separate version numbers. Â The underlying platform still uses point numbers. >> >> >> Esteban, >> >> Is Nautilus under any consideration to be the default browser for your summer release at all, or are you firmly committed to OB? >> I need to know this to continue updating Pharo By Example for 1.4. > > no, because you can load Nautilus on top of OB, but not the opposite. > >> >> cheers -ben >> >> >> > > -- Philippe Back Dramatic Performance Improvements Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail: phil(a)highoctane.be | Web: http://philippeback.eu | Blog: http://philippeback.be High Octane SPRL rue cour Boisacq 101 1301 Bierges Belgium

June 17, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] start thinking on summer release of Pharo 1.4

by Esteban Lorenzano

I prefer codenames and not number because numbering is boring. Just that. 1.4.1 is a stupid number that makes people believe that there will be a 1.4.2, etc... (because our mind is designed that way, inevitably). And if I want to realease an emergency fix, as this version is 1.4.1 next version will be 1.4.1.1 etc. So, no, I prefer codenames over numbering. Also, I'm from southamerica, I know perfectly well than summer here is winter there. I also know something more: nobody cares there :) but if there are complains, I'm willing to change the code name for... I dunno, places where there are Faros. 1.4 Alexandria 1.4 FinistÃ¨re 1.4 Usuhaia :) as I said... I just don't care which code name, but I don't want numbers. (btw... I'm kinda happy that this is the biggest divergence in my proposal :P) On Jun 17, 2012, at 5:10 AM, Ben Coman wrote: > Sean P. DeNigris wrote: >> EstebanLM wrote >> >>> I started thinking on next release of Pharo 1.4 (which will be code named >>> "summer", not an ugly number). >>> >>> Re browsers... I would definitely include either OB or Nautilus. The default >>> is just too limiting. Nautilus does seem to be in a pretty usable state now, >>> and it'd be helpful for new users not to have to learn two browsers in two >>> releases... >>> >>> >>> > -1 on code name "summer" since it is winter here in Australia. Also, were you considering the full name being: > a) only "Summer" > b) "Pharo Summer" > c) "Pharo 1.4 Summer" > > For (a) and (b) - what happens next summer for a maintenance release of 2.0 ? Another code name could work. > For (c), since an ugly number '1.4' is already included, I'd just stay with that as '1.4.1' (c) was my idea, but if place-codenames are taken, we can use a different names each times. > > Also for consideration with using a code name rather than a version number, the two I know off... > Ubuntu - increments each release with a letter of the alphabet, so it is still easy to see the progression. > Eclipse - used the code name for the simultaneous release of multiple projects all having separate version numbers. The underlying platform still uses point numbers. > > > Esteban, > > Is Nautilus under any consideration to be the default browser for your summer release at all, or are you firmly committed to OB? > I need to know this to continue updating Pharo By Example for 1.4. no, because you can load Nautilus on top of OB, but not the opposite. > > cheers -ben > > >

June 17, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] what is the status of the monkey?

by Esteban Lorenzano

is locked in Benjamin's drawer, but with Camillo we are planning to free him this week :) On Jun 16, 2012, at 11:57 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > ulyses. Where is it? why is it not working? how can I make the monkey pick a particular issue? > > thanks > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com >

June 17, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Why don't we always register weakly in SystemAnnouncer?

by Igor Stasenko

On 17 June 2012 09:38, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Igor > > could you tell us what we should do with the issues on handle (feedback of lukas) > > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5145 > > Stef oh, i thought this was already integrated. i think we shall integrate it, and then we will see. the main change is allow object-based announcements, as long an object understands #handlesAnnouncement: message. > > On Jun 16, 2012, at 11:09 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > >> On 16 June 2012 22:51, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> Hi, with the help of Guille I noticed that normal instances usually register >>> weakly: >>> >>> TestRunner >> initialize >>> ..... >>> SystemAnnouncer current >>> Â Â Â Â weak >>> Â Â Â Â on: ClassAdded, CategoryAdded, ClassRemoved, CategoryRemoved, >>> ClassRenamed, CategoryRenamed, ClassRecategorized send: #update to: self. >>> ..... >>> >>> and classes don't: >>> >>> TestCase class >> registerForNotifications >>> Â Â ... >>> Â Â SystemAnnouncer current on: MethodAdded, MethodModified, MethodRemoved >>> send: #methodChanged: to: self. >>> >>> so..Guille told me this is because usually the cycle-life of instances is >>> short in comparisson with classes. But classes can be removed as well. What >>> happen then? the announcer will hold always a reference to an obsolete >>> class? >>> my question is, should we always use weakly? if not, why ? >>> >> >> Yes, i think most of subscriptions should be weak, because it is kind >> of implied by loose-coupling. >> And classes is not an exception - because then you don't need to >> explicitly unsubscribe, >> and don't have to worry that it kept in memory just because you forgot to do it. >> >>> thanks for the explanation, >>> >>> -- >>> Mariano >>> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. >> > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

June 17, 2012