- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello bleedingEdge question

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Dale Henrichs <dhenrich(a)vmware.com> wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > | From: "Mariano Martinez Peck" <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> > | To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > | Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 12:59:46 AM > | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello bleedingEdge question > | > | > | > | > | On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Dale Henrichs < dhenrich(a)vmware.com > | > wrote: > | > | > | Sven, > | > | The versions in ConfigurationOfZTimestamp aren't quite defined > | correctly ... bleedingEdge defaults to loading the latest baseline > | version. A baseline version is declared by setting the blessing to > | #baseline: > | > | spec blessing: #baseline. > | > | Your versions in ConfigurationOfZTimestamp are importing from the > | '1-baseline' but are not changing the blessing, so Metacello doesn't > | know that 1, 2, and 3 are literal versions and not baselines. So > | version 3 looks like the "latest baseline version".. > | > | > | > | Dale, but baselines are supposed to mandatory have the "spec > | blessing: #baseline.", right? so why would metacello think that > | versions 1, 2, and 3 are baselines instead of versions? > > Mariano, > > Short answer is that literal versions are defined by importing from the > baseline, so the literal version inherits the blessing from the baseline. > Therefore you have to specify a blessing of #development or #release in the > literal version to distinguish it from the baseline. > > Thanks Dale for the explanation. Now I understand. > Long answer is... > > For loading purposes, it actually doesn't matter what the blessing is ... > In Metacello, if a package spec has a `file` specified, then the `file` is > loaded. if the `file` is not specified then the latest version of the mcz > file is loaded ... > > By convention, when we define baseline versions we don't specify the > `file` for the packages. > > By convention when we define literal versions we do specify the `file` for > the packages. The expression: > > spec package: 'Example-Core' with: 'Example-Core-dkh.25' > > defines the `file` for the 'Example-Core' package spec to be > 'Example-Core-dkh.25'. > > The blessing is used as an hint by Metacello when using the helper > functions like #bleedingEdge or #latestVersion that implement functionality > based on the conventions. > > #bleedingEdge is defined as the latest version with a #baseline blessing. > > #latestVersion is defined as the latest version whose blessing is neither > #baseline nor #development. > > Versions with a #broken blessing are excluded from consideration... > > Dale > > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Sept. 29, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Seaside] Re: change n same words in browser with one action

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Sep 28, 2012, at 10:35 PM, Fernando Olivero wrote: > Hi, > > maybe in Pharo some of these keyboard shortcuts were removed (for > now), but providing the same operations via pop-up menus doesn't make > it a modal UI. One could argue that remembering and triggering > keyboard shortcuts simply avoids showing the menu at all, at the > expense of a big VI-like learning curve . > > The community behind Pharo does not want modes in the UI! Indeed I do not really understanding are saying that :) > Of course for power users, remembering tons of shortcuts might be > better (not for me though), but there are plans to add default and > customizable keybindings ( using the work of Guille Polito). people are talking often but do not know :) We can control nautilus with a lot of shortcut driven by speedy and really efficient programmers like camillo and guillermo so it would be good to check before talking. Stef > > Fernando > > > > On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 9:40 PM, Chris Muller <asqueaker(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> yes, exactly like this: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/900 >>> >>> Bert Freudenberg added the following: >>> >>> Tip: You do not have to perform a "find" for the "replace" to work. >>> Just select a word you want to have replaced, overtype it with your >>> new word, and hit (ctrl-j). Very handy for renaming variables. >>> >>> This would be perfect. >> >> You should not expect that -- Pharo used to have it but it was removed >> in favor of a more mainstream editor look-and-feel -- so that it be >> would more attractive to new users. Command+J / Control+J are just >> two of several powerful code-editing capabilities Pharo originally >> inherited from Squeak, along with my other favorites Command+E = >> Exchange the last two selections and Command+[, (, {, or | = Surround >> the highlighted text with that bracket-type pair. (not sure if those >> are still there in Pharo). >> >> Pharo favors _familiarity_ for new users somewhat at the cost of >> productivity for its experienced users. It somewhat resembles eclipse >> -- with pop-up dialogs and a seemingly "modal" philosophy. Squeak, by >> constrast, has kept pushing the "simple-but-powerful" philosphy of its >> IDE to near extremes. While it's less familiar for new uesrs, once >> learned, general navigation and editing require _far fewer_ gestures. >> >

Sept. 29, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Seaside] Re: change n same words in browser with one action

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> You should not expect that -- Pharo used to have it but it was removed > in favor of a more mainstream editor look-and-feel -- so that it be > would more attractive to new users. Command+J / Control+J are just > two of several powerful code-editing capabilities Pharo originally > inherited from Squeak, along with my other favorites Command+E = > Exchange the last two selections and Command+[, (, {, or | = Surround > the highlighted text with that bracket-type pair. (not sure if those > are still there in Pharo). There are and we have more. > Pharo favors _familiarity_ for new users somewhat at the cost of > productivity for its experienced users. I cannot really let you saying that :) We want useful and powerful features, this is why over the years we supported refactorings and this is why we are working on keybinding so that we can get emacs like bindings. > It somewhat resembles eclipse > -- with pop-up dialogs and a seemingly "modal" philosophy. What are you saying?â¦ Camillo and Ben added full capability for managing the browser without touching a mouse. We have Click browse and other features. > Squeak, by > constrast, has kept pushing the "simple-but-powerful" philosphy of its > IDE to near extremes. While it's less familiar for new uesrs, once > learned, general navigation and editing require _far fewer_ gestures. Chris did you see us comparing squeak and pharo recently? Stef

Sept. 29, 2012

[Pharo-project] Fuel and Tanker in older Pharo images [WAS] Re: How to try Shapes and Gaucho?

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 11:31 PM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com>wrote: > Hello > > ss3 repo for Shapes and Gaucho closed for reading or maybe empty. > So is it possible to get it somewhere? maybe there is prepared image? > > Actually I gather migrate our applications to last Pharo and use latest > achievemens like fuel and tanker. > Hi. I don't want to go offtopic in the original thread so I opened this one. Of course it is usually a good idea to migrate to latest stable Pharo release so that you don't stay with a very old image. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that Fuel DOES WORK in previous images. In fact, it works from Pharo 1.1 to 2.0. And Tanker right now works in 2.0 only by just because by default we use the new ClassBuilder. But this can be easily changed for those who want to use it in older versions. Anyway, Tanker is still a little bit green ;) For more details read my answer to this comment: http://marianopeck.wordpress.com/2012/09/28/new-tanker-current-status/#comm… > And of course I want vector graphics for user interface by athens. > And I very very excited about shapes which gives clean and powerfull > morphic replacement (Am I right?) > > But to understand amount of work for such big changes I should see shapes > livelly. I need code. > > Best regards, > Denis > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Sept. 29, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Seaside] Re: change n same words in browser with one action

by Camillo Bruni

On 2012-09-29, at 10:04, Sabine KnÃ¶fel <sabine.knoefel(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I agree with Igor and want to add, that a newbie will not be disturbed by shortcuts and can use the dialogs. It is the normal way, if you learn a new system, you get to know one thing after the other and someday, you get to know the shortcuts and they help to work faster. > > As you can see in the screenshot (left side), the feature is documented. > At the right side you can see, that it is not implemented ;.) > > Perhaps it is possible to implement it in one of the next releases? > I don't think replacements on a textual basis make much sense: 1. methods are only a few lines of code, thus limiting the usefulness of such replacements 2. besides renaming temporaries, most renames should be applied to other methods as well. For instance inst-var renames, or method renames.. Though I would like to see on-the-fly variable renaming. For instance as soon as you start typing on the name of the variable definition it will automatically rewrite all the other accesses to that variable in the current method. But for that we need a decent AST-based text editor. So unless you are a pro-pharo-shortcut user, think about the time you loose otherwise by point-and-clicking with your mouse ;), a little search and replace dialog interaction won't add too much :) best cami

Sept. 29, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] How to try Shapes and Gaucho?

by Fernando Olivero

Hi Denis, I'm actively working on Shapes/Gaucho, but not having the time to finally polish it to release has held me back in doing so. The repos are closed for now, until i release them. Shapes is not "production" ready, unless you are willing to work on it. Meaning that Gaucho is the sole user for now. It's much more simpler than using Morphic though(at the expense of loosing some features, which were never used by the way). What it gives you is: 1) Vector graphics, its based on Athens. 2) Customizable shapes using a kind of CSS. 3) Shapes always deal with a local coordinate system, no matter were they're placed in the top/down hierarchy within the scene 4) simpler Event handling based on message passing (instead of MorphicEvents), a reified display and peripherals, 5) An non-overlapping scheme, with snowplowing. 6) No GLOBALS, such as World & ActiveHand. 6) etc... What's preventing me from releasing it now, is that the MultipleLinesTextEditor based on Cairo/Pango isnt 100% finished, so you can type and edit multiple lines of text, and methods. I'm working on it. Fernando On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 11:31 PM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hello > > ss3 repo for Shapes and Gaucho closed for reading or maybe empty. > So is it possible to get it somewhere? maybe there is prepared image? > > Actually I gather migrate our applications to last Pharo and use latest achievemens like fuel and tanker. > And of course I want vector graphics for user interface by athens. > And I very very excited about shapes which gives clean and powerfull morphic replacement (Am I right?) > > But to understand amount of work for such big changes I should see shapes livelly. I need code. > > Best regards, > Denis

Sept. 29, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Seaside] Re: change n same words in browser with one action

by Sabine KnÃ¶fel

I agree with Igor and want to add, that a newbie will not be disturbed by shortcuts and can use the dialogs. It is the normal way, if you learn a new system, you get to know one thing after the other and someday, you get to know the shortcuts and they help to work faster. As you can see in the screenshot (left side), the feature is documented. At the right side you can see, that it is not implemented ;.) Perhaps it is possible to implement it in one of the next releases? On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 7:28 AM, Chris Muller <ma.chris.m(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> You should not expect that -- Pharo used to have it but it was removed > >> in favor of a more mainstream editor look-and-feel -- so that it be > >> would more attractive to new users. Command+J / Control+J are just > >> two of several powerful code-editing capabilities Pharo originally > >> inherited from Squeak, along with my other favorites Command+E = > >> Exchange the last two selections and Command+[, (, {, or | = Surround > >> the highlighted text with that bracket-type pair. (not sure if those > >> are still there in Pharo). > > > > Now what would be really cool is to have a documentation about all > > those, and make them easily > > discoverable. I worked with Squeak long enough, and didn't saw > > anything close to that. > > I said that it is 'command-g' instead 'command-j' exactly because of > > that, because you never know... > > And for me it was always felt like: > > - let user discover shortcuts by pressing random key combinations and > > see what happens. > > And then tell me, what are the chances that people will understand > > what exactly cmd-j does without > > reading documentation? In 99% of cases it will be 'oh.. what was just > happen' .. > > This is about "more attractive". > > And if you hiding knowledge behind sealed doors, don't be surprised > > that someone will come and build a new library with open doors, > > replacing yours. > > You didn't look hard enough -- it's under the "help" menu. Squeak 3.0 > is the earliest I have on my HD but.. yes, it was there then and its > still there now. Ok, I know you just forgot we miss you too Igor. ;) > > I admire Pharo blazing new trails but notice a pattern in some of the > "gold" feedback from Pharo customers which worth taking to heart. > Like: > > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2012-May/064702.html > > > This is, what i think, happens with shortcuts changes in Pharo, except > > form those which was remapped. > > > >> Pharo favors _familiarity_ for new users somewhat at the cost of > >> productivity for its experienced users. It somewhat resembles eclipse > >> -- with pop-up dialogs and a seemingly "modal" philosophy. Squeak, by > >> constrast, has kept pushing the "simple-but-powerful" philosphy of its > >> IDE to near extremes. While it's less familiar for new uesrs, once > >> learned, general navigation and editing require _far fewer_ gestures. > >> > > Another thing, is that i first time hear that pharo is in favor of > > newcomers at expense of experienced users. > > I am not involved in changes to key bindings / shortcuts, but i doubt > > that people, who doing that, making changes having such strange aim. > > I think they are focused on making it good for newcomers and > > experienced users both. Otherwise i don't see much sense in doing this > > at all, and would be first who will be against it. > > Ok, glad to hear that. I would rather have the best system possible > than one with the most mainstream acceptance. >

Sept. 29, 2012

[Pharo-project] [Seaside] Re: change n same words in browser with one action

by Chris Muller

>> You should not expect that -- Pharo used to have it but it was removed >> in favor of a more mainstream editor look-and-feel -- so that it be >> would more attractive to new users. Command+J / Control+J are just >> two of several powerful code-editing capabilities Pharo originally >> inherited from Squeak, along with my other favorites Command+E = >> Exchange the last two selections and Command+[, (, {, or | = Surround >> the highlighted text with that bracket-type pair. (not sure if those >> are still there in Pharo). > > Now what would be really cool is to have a documentation about all > those, and make them easily > discoverable. I worked with Squeak long enough, and didn't saw > anything close to that. > I said that it is 'command-g' instead 'command-j' exactly because of > that, because you never know... > And for me it was always felt like: > - let user discover shortcuts by pressing random key combinations and > see what happens. > And then tell me, what are the chances that people will understand > what exactly cmd-j does without > reading documentation? In 99% of cases it will be 'oh.. what was just happen' .. > This is about "more attractive". > And if you hiding knowledge behind sealed doors, don't be surprised > that someone will come and build a new library with open doors, > replacing yours. You didn't look hard enough -- it's under the "help" menu. Squeak 3.0 is the earliest I have on my HD but.. yes, it was there then and its still there now. Ok, I know you just forgot we miss you too Igor. ;) I admire Pharo blazing new trails but notice a pattern in some of the "gold" feedback from Pharo customers which worth taking to heart. Like: http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2012-May/064702.html > This is, what i think, happens with shortcuts changes in Pharo, except > form those which was remapped. > >> Pharo favors _familiarity_ for new users somewhat at the cost of >> productivity for its experienced users. It somewhat resembles eclipse >> -- with pop-up dialogs and a seemingly "modal" philosophy. Squeak, by >> constrast, has kept pushing the "simple-but-powerful" philosphy of its >> IDE to near extremes. While it's less familiar for new uesrs, once >> learned, general navigation and editing require _far fewer_ gestures. >> > Another thing, is that i first time hear that pharo is in favor of > newcomers at expense of experienced users. > I am not involved in changes to key bindings / shortcuts, but i doubt > that people, who doing that, making changes having such strange aim. > I think they are focused on making it good for newcomers and > experienced users both. Otherwise i don't see much sense in doing this > at all, and would be first who will be against it. Ok, glad to hear that. I would rather have the best system possible than one with the most mainstream acceptance.

Sept. 29, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Seaside] Re: change n same words in browser with one action

by Chris Muller

> The community behind Pharo does not want modes in the UI! That's great to hear! My mistake. > Of course for power users, remembering tons of shortcuts might be > better (not for me though), but there are plans to add default and > customizable keybindings ( using the work of Guille Polito). The keybindings are already customizable since the code can be changed.

Sept. 29, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [Seaside] Re: change n same words in browser with one action

by Igor Stasenko

On 28 September 2012 21:40, Chris Muller <asqueaker(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> yes, exactly like this: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/900 >> >> Bert Freudenberg added the following: >> >> Tip: You do not have to perform a "find" for the "replace" to work. >> Just select a word you want to have replaced, overtype it with your >> new word, and hit (ctrl-j). Very handy for renaming variables. >> >> This would be perfect. > > You should not expect that -- Pharo used to have it but it was removed > in favor of a more mainstream editor look-and-feel -- so that it be > would more attractive to new users. Command+J / Control+J are just > two of several powerful code-editing capabilities Pharo originally > inherited from Squeak, along with my other favorites Command+E = > Exchange the last two selections and Command+[, (, {, or | = Surround > the highlighted text with that bracket-type pair. (not sure if those > are still there in Pharo). > Now what would be really cool is to have a documentation about all those, and make them easily discoverable. I worked with Squeak long enough, and didn't saw anything close to that. I said that it is 'command-g' instead 'command-j' exactly because of that, because you never know... And for me it was always felt like: - let user discover shortcuts by pressing random key combinations and see what happens. And then tell me, what are the chances that people will understand what exactly cmd-j does without reading documentation? In 99% of cases it will be 'oh.. what was just happen' .. This is about "more attractive". And if you hiding knowledge behind sealed doors, don't be surprised that someone will come and build a new library with open doors, replacing yours. This is, what i think, happens with shortcuts changes in Pharo, except form those which was remapped. > Pharo favors _familiarity_ for new users somewhat at the cost of > productivity for its experienced users. It somewhat resembles eclipse > -- with pop-up dialogs and a seemingly "modal" philosophy. Squeak, by > constrast, has kept pushing the "simple-but-powerful" philosphy of its > IDE to near extremes. While it's less familiar for new uesrs, once > learned, general navigation and editing require _far fewer_ gestures. > Another thing, is that i first time hear that pharo is in favor of newcomers at expense of experienced users. I am not involved in changes to key bindings / shortcuts, but i doubt that people, who doing that, making changes having such strange aim. I think they are focused on making it good for newcomers and experienced users both. Otherwise i don't see much sense in doing this at all, and would be first who will be against it. _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Sept. 29, 2012