- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

[Pharo-project] Happy to see progress

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi guys have a look at the doc below I wrote it in november 2011, you will see that we are moving in the right direction :) For example 3.1 Towards a small kernel [we have it now we should think about all the core packages] 3.2 Towards a verified package catalog [On the way] 4.1 A Robust and Extensible System Events [Beta and should be in 3.0] 4.2 Rewrite of Filesystem/Streams [DONE for Files] 4.3 Announcements and Ephemerons [Annoucements is done :) - more cleans ready for 3.0 :) 4.4 UI Canvas for Zoomable Interfaces [Waiting for TextModel and 3.0] 4.5 Bootstrap of the Core [Done should be integrated in 3.0] 4.6 Fully parametrized compiler tool chain [Start with Opal in 3.0] 4.7 Packages as real objects [in 2.0 and will improve in 3.0] 4.8 Package Meta-Data [Done] 4.9 Less Model Clutter and Duplication [Started in 2.0 will be accentuated in 3.0] 4.10 Building and Reusing UI Logic [First cut in 2.0 UIPainter for 3.0] 4.11 New Network Layer [We will see] 4.12 Serializers [Done] 4.13 SystemChangeNotifier replacement [Done] 4.14 Cleaning Morphic [To be continued in 3.0] 5.2 VMs identification and regression testing [On the way] 5.3 One Unified FFI framework [ before June ]

Feb. 26, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] ZTimestamp[Precise]SNTPClient

by stephane ducasse

>>> >> If you want to use SqueakMap go ahead. I have been there and now I know >> what I want for Pharo. Hi frank > I never know what you mean when you say things like this. What is it > that you want for Pharo? I wrote a 40 page vision document just for that. It was not really fun but this is an important document so that people that are not close to us can understand why we are doing certain things or saying others. So please have a look and let us know if this is clear. http://www.pharo-project.org/community/consortium A nice note: I browsed it 3 min and this is cool to see that some parts have already been done. The cool aspects is that I'm quite confident that we will implement the vision and do a lot more. Now to reply to your question is a bad three line (the full answer is nicely explained in the vision doc): I want an automated validated tested distributions and core system. I want that users can click on a package and that it loads and all the tests are green and the smallLint rule ok. I think that this is a minimum. And I do not want to rely on servers that can disappear. Stef

Feb. 26, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] ZTimestamp[Precise]SNTPClient

by Frank Shearar

On 26 February 2013 20:48, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 2013/2/26 Frank Shearar <frank.shearar(a)gmail.com>: >> On 26 February 2013 20:07, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> wrote: >>> There is no magic if as a programmer we do not define the dependencies we cannot do anything. ;) >>> so we should define configurationOf and we will take real advantages of them. > >> Nowadays with CI and all sorts of stuff we're (Pharo _and_ Squeak, I >> mean) in a much better place. There's still the modularity aspect to >> worry about in the general case, but CI can still help out a bit >> there, flushing out incompatible monkey patches. > > But the thing still is how to manage the dependencies without screwing > the whole image. > And so far, as Stephane said, the ConfigurationOf* is the only "safe" > (and viable?) way to do it. > > Dependency management is not a simple problem, but succeeding at it > would be a key differentiator. I know. You're right. I'm not saying anything different. Well, except for the differentiator part. The problem's pretty much solved in quite a few other languages. (Clojars can do this: https://clojars.org/cloverage. Rubygems doesn't, but it could, thanks to bundler.) SqueakMap's sole purpose is this: how do you FIND the ConfigurationOf? How do you know who to contact? What's the thing for, in the first place? And I'd argue that ss3 is not that catalog. (And that's before we talk about availability of services.) frank

Feb. 26, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] ZTimestamp[Precise]SNTPClient

by Frank Shearar

On 26 February 2013 20:55, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> wrote: > >> >> Oh, did you mean to type "you had no idea IF the package would load"? > > and work. > >> OK, sure, but that's not really SM's fault, that's just the way things >> were. >> >> Nowadays with CI and all sorts of stuff we're (Pharo _and_ Squeak, I >> mean) in a much better place. There's still the modularity aspect to >> worry about in the general case, but CI can still help out a bit >> there, flushing out incompatible monkey patches. > > If you want to use SqueakMap go ahead. I have been there and now I know > what I want for Pharo. I never know what you mean when you say things like this. What is it that you want for Pharo? > Stef > >

Feb. 26, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] ZTimestamp[Precise]SNTPClient

by stephane ducasse

> > Oh, did you mean to type "you had no idea IF the package would load"? and work. > OK, sure, but that's not really SM's fault, that's just the way things > were. > > Nowadays with CI and all sorts of stuff we're (Pharo _and_ Squeak, I > mean) in a much better place. There's still the modularity aspect to > worry about in the general case, but CI can still help out a bit > there, flushing out incompatible monkey patches. If you want to use SqueakMap go ahead. I have been there and now I know what I want for Pharo. Stef

Feb. 26, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] ZTimestamp[Precise]SNTPClient

by Esteban A. Maringolo

2013/2/26 Frank Shearar <frank.shearar(a)gmail.com>: > On 26 February 2013 20:07, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> wrote: >> There is no magic if as a programmer we do not define the dependencies we cannot do anything. ;) >> so we should define configurationOf and we will take real advantages of them. > Nowadays with CI and all sorts of stuff we're (Pharo _and_ Squeak, I > mean) in a much better place. There's still the modularity aspect to > worry about in the general case, but CI can still help out a bit > there, flushing out incompatible monkey patches. But the thing still is how to manage the dependencies without screwing the whole image. And so far, as Stephane said, the ConfigurationOf* is the only "safe" (and viable?) way to do it. Dependency management is not a simple problem, but succeeding at it would be a key differentiator. Regards,

Feb. 26, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] ZTimestamp[Precise]SNTPClient

by Frank Shearar

On 26 February 2013 20:07, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> wrote: > There is no magic if as a programmer we do not define the dependencies we cannot do anything. ;) > so we should define configurationOf and we will take real advantages of them. > > Now if you read the vision document you will see what we want: > > we want a distribution that will be filled up automatically by executing configurations that are published > in an inbox and validated (tests run, SmallLint rules run). > > Then we will be able to have a one click install of projects that are certified to load in a given image. > > Stef > PS: SqueakMap failed because you had no idea is the package would load in your image. > Believe me I know why I want the distribution infrastructure. Oh, did you mean to type "you had no idea IF the package would load"? OK, sure, but that's not really SM's fault, that's just the way things were. Nowadays with CI and all sorts of stuff we're (Pharo _and_ Squeak, I mean) in a much better place. There's still the modularity aspect to worry about in the general case, but CI can still help out a bit there, flushing out incompatible monkey patches. frank > On Feb 26, 2013, at 7:33 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> 2013/2/26 Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>: >>> On Feb 26, 2013, at 5:33 PM, "Esteban A. Maringolo" <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>> If you count the number of packages in SmalltalkHub and compare them >>>> to the ones in Npmjs.org, it is impressive how much we have. >>> But isn't "package" more like "repository" on smalltalkhub? >> >> It is a Project, but on the explore screen it says Packages, so... who knows? :) >> >> But it is true that GitHub is to SmalltakHub what npm/gem is to...? >> >>>> Of course NPM's user base is two orders of magnitude greater, but we >>>> need to start having more killer app "modules", and some sort of >>>> guideline for those starting with Pharo and/or Smalltalk. >>> And we need a system in the first place like thatâ¦ smalltalkhub is more for code >>> repositories, not in itself a repository of installable entities. >> >> Yes, having packages as "artifacts" is more straightforward than the >> configurations and all that jazz. >> >> The MetaRepo is going in that direction, but I still think that >> evaluating the install statements with Gofer or anything similar in a >> Workspace is somehow alien for a non smalltalker. >> >> There should be something that wraps Gofer and works like the apt, npm >> or gem commands. >> >>> So there is a lot of work aheadâ¦ but we will get there. >> >> No doubts of that. >> >> >> Regards! >> > >

Feb. 26, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] BalloonCanvas>>drawPolygon

by Hilaire Fernandes

Le 26/02/2013 21:03, stephane ducasse a Ã©crit : > good idea! You may also want something like forum.pharo.org or lists.pharo.org, so users can easily get to where they want. For Dr. Geo I have many like bug.drgeo.eu, bugs.drgeo.eu, forum.drgeo.eu, translate.drgeo.eu,... > create a bug entry so that we do not forget Already done :)

Feb. 26, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN] ZTimestamp[Precise]SNTPClient

by stephane ducasse

There is no magic if as a programmer we do not define the dependencies we cannot do anything. ;) so we should define configurationOf and we will take real advantages of them. Now if you read the vision document you will see what we want: we want a distribution that will be filled up automatically by executing configurations that are published in an inbox and validated (tests run, SmallLint rules run). Then we will be able to have a one click install of projects that are certified to load in a given image. Stef PS: SqueakMap failed because you had no idea is the package would load in your image. Believe me I know why I want the distribution infrastructure. On Feb 26, 2013, at 7:33 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 2013/2/26 Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>: >> On Feb 26, 2013, at 5:33 PM, "Esteban A. Maringolo" <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>> If you count the number of packages in SmalltalkHub and compare them >>> to the ones in Npmjs.org, it is impressive how much we have. >> But isn't "package" more like "repository" on smalltalkhub? > > It is a Project, but on the explore screen it says Packages, so... who knows? :) > > But it is true that GitHub is to SmalltakHub what npm/gem is to...? > >>> Of course NPM's user base is two orders of magnitude greater, but we >>> need to start having more killer app "modules", and some sort of >>> guideline for those starting with Pharo and/or Smalltalk. >> And we need a system in the first place like thatâ¦ smalltalkhub is more for code >> repositories, not in itself a repository of installable entities. > > Yes, having packages as "artifacts" is more straightforward than the > configurations and all that jazz. > > The MetaRepo is going in that direction, but I still think that > evaluating the install statements with Gofer or anything similar in a > Workspace is somehow alien for a non smalltalker. > > There should be something that wraps Gofer and works like the apt, npm > or gem commands. > >> So there is a lot of work aheadâ¦ but we will get there. > > No doubts of that. > > > Regards! >

Feb. 26, 2013

Re: [Pharo-project] BalloonCanvas>>drawPolygon

by stephane ducasse

good idea! create a bug entry so that we do not forget On Feb 26, 2013, at 8:59 PM, Hilaire Fernandes <hilaire.fernandes(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Le 26/02/2013 16:43, stephane ducasse a Ã©crit : >> can you open a bug entry on the pharo bug tracker? so that we can have a look. > > Done. > > Btw, a redirection http://bug[s].pharo.org will be very handy. > > Hilaire > >

Feb. 26, 2013