- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Necessity of TDD with Smalltalk

by Dennis Schetinin

â¦ I've forgot to explicitly mention that TDD-ing in Pharo I spent most of time in debugger and inspectors: I see live objects there, I can investigate and find roots of troubles, I code thereâ¦ That's why TDD is most productive in Smalltalk environment for me, and another reason why I think a good debugger (in an alive environment) doesn't make TDD unnecessary (or inversely) but rather complement and empower each other. -- Best regards, Dennis Schetinin 2013/6/6 Dennis Schetinin <chaetal(a)gmail.com> > I didn't mean to start a big discussion so I'm not ready to state or > develop my vision right now fully and logicallyâ¦ But let's try to start > little-by-little. > > Considering Pharo as an exampleâ¦ there are few minor issues like lack of > some code-producing features in debuggerâ¦ the one I can remember right now > is lack of code formatting there, but there are few more. Fixing such > issues would be a first step towards TDD-oriented environment. > > Next steps would be about some more serious improvements: Test Runner > improvements, auto-test running (it's already is implemented I think?), > test annotations (expressing ideas behind every tests, relations between > them, etc.), better test navigation and, perhaps, a "TDD-oriented" browser. > Then, there should be introspection tools that for example silently save > all the history and allow to review, analyze the development process > regarding the idea-test-implementation tripletsâ¦ > > â¦Sure, I rather have a "feeling" of the TDD-oriented environment then a > good proposal right now. The feeling grows to something almost reasonable > when I code, but I didn't have such chance for few months already, so I'm > kinda caught off base :) > > -- > > Best regards, > > > Dennis Schetinin > > > 2013/6/6 Frank Shearar <frank.shearar(a)gmail.com> > >> On 6 June 2013 14:44, Dennis Schetinin <chaetal(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> > TDD is not about tests (as a bug-finding/debugger tool) at all. And the >> > anti-regression feature of TDD is just the secondary one. >> > >> > First of all, TDD is about structuring thinking/creation process. And >> "test" >> > here is a tool that allows and makes developer to formalize >> requirements and >> > to translate them to the language they will be implemented in. This >> starts >> > and really drives coding. Thus, a programmer that really masters TDD >> (really >> > means an ability to apply "pure" TDD for all programming activities: >> both >> > top-down and bottom-up design activities) is expected to produce much >> better >> > architecture/design/code. >> > >> > â¦ So, I don't think TDD is somehow obsolete by Smalltalk. Vice versa, >> TDD >> > should be really efficient here. And it's a great pity TDD is not >> actually >> > popular in Smalltalk society. One of the dire consequences is that >> modern >> > Smalltalk environments are not "TDD-oriented" and don't advantage from >> good >> > TDD methodology. >> >> Why do you think Smalltalk environments aren't "TDD oriented"? What >> would an IDE need to be TDD oriented? (I can think of something like >> Ruby's guard, which runs tests every time you save a file.) >> >> frank >> >> >

June 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Necessity of TDD with Smalltalk

by Dennis Schetinin

I didn't mean to start a big discussion so I'm not ready to state or develop my vision right now fully and logicallyâ¦ But let's try to start little-by-little. Considering Pharo as an exampleâ¦ there are few minor issues like lack of some code-producing features in debuggerâ¦ the one I can remember right now is lack of code formatting there, but there are few more. Fixing such issues would be a first step towards TDD-oriented environment. Next steps would be about some more serious improvements: Test Runner improvements, auto-test running (it's already is implemented I think?), test annotations (expressing ideas behind every tests, relations between them, etc.), better test navigation and, perhaps, a "TDD-oriented" browser. Then, there should be introspection tools that for example silently save all the history and allow to review, analyze the development process regarding the idea-test-implementation tripletsâ¦ â¦Sure, I rather have a "feeling" of the TDD-oriented environment then a good proposal right now. The feeling grows to something almost reasonable when I code, but I didn't have such chance for few months already, so I'm kinda caught off base :) -- Best regards, Dennis Schetinin 2013/6/6 Frank Shearar <frank.shearar(a)gmail.com> > On 6 June 2013 14:44, Dennis Schetinin <chaetal(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > TDD is not about tests (as a bug-finding/debugger tool) at all. And the > > anti-regression feature of TDD is just the secondary one. > > > > First of all, TDD is about structuring thinking/creation process. And > "test" > > here is a tool that allows and makes developer to formalize requirements > and > > to translate them to the language they will be implemented in. This > starts > > and really drives coding. Thus, a programmer that really masters TDD > (really > > means an ability to apply "pure" TDD for all programming activities: both > > top-down and bottom-up design activities) is expected to produce much > better > > architecture/design/code. > > > > â¦ So, I don't think TDD is somehow obsolete by Smalltalk. Vice versa, TDD > > should be really efficient here. And it's a great pity TDD is not > actually > > popular in Smalltalk society. One of the dire consequences is that modern > > Smalltalk environments are not "TDD-oriented" and don't advantage from > good > > TDD methodology. > > Why do you think Smalltalk environments aren't "TDD oriented"? What > would an IDE need to be TDD oriented? (I can think of something like > Ruby's guard, which runs tests every time you save a file.) > > frank > >

June 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Screencast]: Pharo Smalltalk's New TxText: The Power of Clean Code

by Sean P. DeNigris

Mariano Martinez Peck wrote > only a few notice the work underneath :) I've been so grateful for and empowered by the new infrastructure I was moved to share a bit, even if it only interests a few of us :) ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Screencast-Pharo-Smalltalk-s-New-TxText-The-Power-of-… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

June 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Screencast]: Pharo Smalltalk's New TxText: The Power of Clean Code

by Sean P. DeNigris

Henrik Sperre Johansen wrote > Even Smalltalkers are impressed once in a while that the distance from > idea to implementation can be less than an hour :) Yes, when it takes longer for someone to write a feature request than it does for you to implement it, I notice :) ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Screencast-Pharo-Smalltalk-s-New-TxText-The-Power-of-… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

June 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Necessity of TDD with Smalltalk

by askoh

Dennis: You seem to see more in TDD than most people. Can you write a small tutorial that illustrates what you think Smalltalkers need to see in TDD? I do think Smalltalk is missing something in it evolution. Thanks, Aik-Siong Koh -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-dev-Necessity-of-TDD-with-Smalltalk-tp4691867p4… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

June 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Screencast]: Pharo Smalltalk's New TxText: The Power of Clean Code

by Henrik Johansen

On Jun 6, 2013, at 3:45 PM, plantec wrote: > > On 6 juin 2013, at 15:30, "Sean P. DeNigris" <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > >> plantec wrote >>> something like that ? :) >> >> Now you're just showing off ;) > sorry, I don't understand, what do you mean ? > Cheers > Alain Even Smalltalkers are impressed once in a while that the distance from idea to implementation can be less than an hour :) Cheers, Henry

June 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Necessity of TDD with Smalltalk

by Frank Shearar

On 6 June 2013 14:44, Dennis Schetinin <chaetal(a)gmail.com> wrote: > TDD is not about tests (as a bug-finding/debugger tool) at all. And the > anti-regression feature of TDD is just the secondary one. > > First of all, TDD is about structuring thinking/creation process. And "test" > here is a tool that allows and makes developer to formalize requirements and > to translate them to the language they will be implemented in. This starts > and really drives coding. Thus, a programmer that really masters TDD (really > means an ability to apply "pure" TDD for all programming activities: both > top-down and bottom-up design activities) is expected to produce much better > architecture/design/code. > > â¦ So, I don't think TDD is somehow obsolete by Smalltalk. Vice versa, TDD > should be really efficient here. And it's a great pity TDD is not actually > popular in Smalltalk society. One of the dire consequences is that modern > Smalltalk environments are not "TDD-oriented" and don't advantage from good > TDD methodology. Why do you think Smalltalk environments aren't "TDD oriented"? What would an IDE need to be TDD oriented? (I can think of something like Ruby's guard, which runs tests every time you save a file.) frank

June 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Screencast]: Pharo Smalltalk's New TxText: The Power of Clean Code

by plantec

On 6 juin 2013, at 15:30, "Sean P. DeNigris" <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > plantec wrote >> something like that ? :) > > Now you're just showing off ;) sorry, I don't understand, what do you mean ? Cheers Alain > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Screencast-Pharo-Smalltalk-s-New-TxText-The-Power-of-… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

June 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Necessity of TDD with Smalltalk

by Dennis Schetinin

TDD is not about tests (as a bug-finding/debugger tool) at all. And the anti-regression feature of TDD is just the secondary one. First of all, TDD is about structuring thinking/creation process. And "test" here is a tool that allows and makes developer to formalize requirements and to translate them to the language they will be implemented in. This starts and really drives coding. Thus, a programmer that really masters TDD (really means an ability to apply "pure" TDD for all programming activities: both top-down and bottom-up design activities) is expected to produce much better architecture/design/code. â¦ So, I don't think TDD is somehow obsolete by Smalltalk. Vice versa, TDD should be really efficient here. And it's a great pity TDD is not actually popular in Smalltalk society. One of the dire consequences is that modern Smalltalk environments are not "TDD-oriented" and don't advantage from good TDD methodology. â¦ Yea, that's just one of my pet peeves :) -- Best regards, Dennis Schetinin 2013/6/6 kilon <thekilon(a)yahoo.co.uk> > I dont think a debugger can ever replace TDD for two reason > > a) Tests are faster way to find bugs that don't want to be found ;) > > b) Tests are more than debugging tools > > (A) If you have already created a large suite of tests then all it takes is > to fire those tests and just wait for the result to come out. Much fastert > than going one by one bug. Also I dont know if the same applies for > smalltalk but when i was coding for python not all code was executed and so > I did not see all the bugs my code contains. So I had to test the app > myself > in many diffirent ways and I quickly found out that writing tests was way > faster in the long run. > > (B) tests also make sure that your code behaves the way you want to behave > and produces the result you want to produce. It may not be a bug per se, > just a weird behavior. They also set a design pattern for your code to > follow in the future. > > Generally speaking I use TDD for long code or code that is going to be > maintained in the long run and get larger and larger. I think in that > scenario TDD really excells. TDD is very popular in python, its part of the > main library cpython(unittesting.py) comes with and there is also a third > party library called "Nose" that even offer more features. > > I think TDD helps you keep your sanity in the long run especially with big > projects and complex code. > > Debuggers are more like microscopes while i see TDD more like Satelites on > orbit. ;) > > > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Pharo-dev-Necessity-of-TDD-with-Smalltalk-tp4691867p4… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > >

June 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Screencast]: Pharo Smalltalk's New TxText: The Power of Clean Code

by Denis Kudriashov

2013/6/6 plantec <alain.plantec(a)yahoo.com> > something like that ? :) Great!

June 6, 2013