- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Use pharo users mailing list

by phil＠highoctane.be

Google and a copy of the list in there is fine enough for me. SO is okay but frankly, I do not go there to look for stuff/answer questions, but because my google search sends me there. Where we could have exposure would be on things like infoQ. Regards, --- Philippe Back Dramatic Performance Improvements Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail:phil@highoctane.be | Web: http://philippeback.eu Blog: http://philippeback.be | Twitter: @philippeback Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/philippeback/videos High Octane SPRL rue cour Boisacq 101 | 1301 Bierges | Belgium Pharo Consortium Member - http://consortium.pharo.org/ Featured on the Software Process and Measurement Cast - http://spamcast.libsyn.com Sparx Systems Enterprise Architect and Ability Engineering EADocX Value Added Reseller On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com>wrote: > The difference not only lies in the format, but also in the user base. > > I'm 30+ years old, and I grew up using bulletin boards, newsgroups and > mailing list, but there is a big generation of "programmers" (emphasis > in the quotes) that will never subscribe to a mailing list, some don't > even know what a mailing list is. They grew up using sites like Yahoo > Answers, and expect the same for their programming questions. > > I guess it is the same that happened in the transition from newsgroups > to mailing lists, and as in the bbc to newsgroups, and newsgroups to > mailing lists, every new generation seems to me like an order of > magnitude bigger. > > I think BOTH options are okay, it is, a user list and StackOverflow > like websites. The SEO of the later is really good. > The flattening of the question/answer curve may have to do with the > fact that most questions have been answered and they start to repeat. > > I use StackOverflow and SuperUser on a daily basis. And I do find most > of the answers I need. > > To me the radical choice would be to merge both users and development > mailing lists. > The separation is okay from an organization point of view, but the > volume today is no that big as to justify fragmentation, seems like an > "early optimization". > > Regards, > > > Esteban A. Maringolo > > > 2013/9/23 H. Hirzel <hannes.hirzel(a)gmail.com>: > > On 9/23/13, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > >> Kilon wrote > >>>Here is a radical suggestion you probably don't want to hear. > >>>Close down Pharo users mailing list, redirect everyone to stackoverflow. > >> > >> Definitely not. Stackoverflow is nearly dead, and seriously unsuitable > for > >> small languages. > > > > There are obstacles but one cannot say that it is "seriously > > unsuitable". Stackoverflow question demand a certain format, typically > > something like > > > > - statement of what you want to accomplish > > - attempt a solution with code which has problems > > - question > > > >>Good questions will get closed by clueless people. > > Mostly if the form does not fit. > > And if there are Pharo people (maybe earned in another area) with > > enough reputation points this may be prevented > > > >> Good answers will get downvoted because they go against majority > >> views. > > > > Why? > > > >>The ranking system is heavily skewed towards popular languages. > > > > It is based on the number of hits which is naturally less in less > > popular languages. > > However subcommunities may function well in stackoverflow. > > > > the tagging and referencing system is excellent. > > > >> Stackoverflow doesn't allow discussions (and interesting questions), > > > > No, but that is not the aim of the site. It is a question and answer > > site for _coding_ and maybe _design_ problems to a certain extent. > > > > However it allows for wiki pages. Any answer may be turned into a wiki > page. > > > >> which is a major reason to have these lists. > > > > List are good in addition. > > > > --Hannes > > > >> To see for yourself, take a look at the questions related to OODBs. > >> > >> Stephan > >> > >> > > > >

Sept. 23, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Use pharo users mailing list

by Esteban A. Maringolo

The difference not only lies in the format, but also in the user base. I'm 30+ years old, and I grew up using bulletin boards, newsgroups and mailing list, but there is a big generation of "programmers" (emphasis in the quotes) that will never subscribe to a mailing list, some don't even know what a mailing list is. They grew up using sites like Yahoo Answers, and expect the same for their programming questions. I guess it is the same that happened in the transition from newsgroups to mailing lists, and as in the bbc to newsgroups, and newsgroups to mailing lists, every new generation seems to me like an order of magnitude bigger. I think BOTH options are okay, it is, a user list and StackOverflow like websites. The SEO of the later is really good. The flattening of the question/answer curve may have to do with the fact that most questions have been answered and they start to repeat. I use StackOverflow and SuperUser on a daily basis. And I do find most of the answers I need. To me the radical choice would be to merge both users and development mailing lists. The separation is okay from an organization point of view, but the volume today is no that big as to justify fragmentation, seems like an "early optimization". Regards, Esteban A. Maringolo 2013/9/23 H. Hirzel <hannes.hirzel(a)gmail.com>: > On 9/23/13, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: >> Kilon wrote >>>Here is a radical suggestion you probably don't want to hear. >>>Close down Pharo users mailing list, redirect everyone to stackoverflow. >> >> Definitely not. Stackoverflow is nearly dead, and seriously unsuitable for >> small languages. > > There are obstacles but one cannot say that it is "seriously > unsuitable". Stackoverflow question demand a certain format, typically > something like > > - statement of what you want to accomplish > - attempt a solution with code which has problems > - question > >>Good questions will get closed by clueless people. > Mostly if the form does not fit. > And if there are Pharo people (maybe earned in another area) with > enough reputation points this may be prevented > >> Good answers will get downvoted because they go against majority >> views. > > Why? > >>The ranking system is heavily skewed towards popular languages. > > It is based on the number of hits which is naturally less in less > popular languages. > However subcommunities may function well in stackoverflow. > > the tagging and referencing system is excellent. > >> Stackoverflow doesn't allow discussions (and interesting questions), > > No, but that is not the aim of the site. It is a question and answer > site for _coding_ and maybe _design_ problems to a certain extent. > > However it allows for wiki pages. Any answer may be turned into a wiki page. > >> which is a major reason to have these lists. > > List are good in addition. > > --Hannes > >> To see for yourself, take a look at the questions related to OODBs. >> >> Stephan >> >> >

Sept. 23, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-users] [ANN] Launching Pharo on Ubuntu

by Camillo Bruni

good work! On 2013-09-23, at 09:13, Damien Cassou <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com> wrote: > For Ubuntu users who are using my PPA > (https://launchpad.net/~pharo/+archive/stable/) you can now launch > Pharo from either the Ubuntu Dashboard or the terminal (just type > 'pharo'). > > In both cases, you will see the Pharo Launcher from which you can > create new images from templates on the web and launch existing > images. http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Pharo/PharoLauncher > > No need for manual download of zip files, unpacking, and directory > management. The launcher does everything for you. > > Have fun > > -- > Damien Cassou > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without > losing enthusiasm." > Winston Churchill > <pharo-launcher-screenshot.png>

Sept. 23, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Integration Process

by Camillo Bruni

On 2013-09-23, at 05:13, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On Sep 23, 2013, at 6:21 AM, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> I spent today 10mins explaining step by step on how to regular Pharo programmers how to create a bugfix for Pharo! >> >> THIS IS BAD! >> >> There are many more motivated Pharo programmers outside RMoD, and I am sure that quite some >> of them would actually provide bug fixes. The current bug-report process has a way too steep >> learning curve. >> >> >> There are a few things we have to change here: >> >> 1. make bugs.pharo.org finally work with dots in the email message >> 2. make bugs.pharo.org automatically send a password reset request (in the worst case we do a redirect/curl on the normal fogbugz site) >> 3. make the anonymous inbox work on the smalltalkhub > > I would not say anonymous... public, yes :) yes this is what I meant, committing without having to be added manually to the contributors list.

Sept. 23, 2013

[ANN] Launching Pharo on Ubuntu

by Damien Cassou

For Ubuntu users who are using my PPA (https://launchpad.net/~pharo/+archive/stable/) you can now launch Pharo from either the Ubuntu Dashboard or the terminal (just type 'pharo'). In both cases, you will see the Pharo Launcher from which you can create new images from templates on the web and launch existing images. http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Pharo/PharoLauncher No need for manual download of zip files, unpacking, and directory management. The launcher does everything for you. Have fun -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without losing enthusiasm." Winston Churchill

Sept. 23, 2013

11635: Race condition in SequenceableCollection>>shuffle

by Max Leske

Sven suggested posting this on the list for discussion, so here you go: > Maybe this should be discussed on the list, your are going to break API. > > Note that there is also #sort and #sorted with similar copy behavior. > > Also, I am not sure that basic operations should use mutexes to protect themselves by default: there is a cost when you are a single threaded user. Even in Java there are synchronized and non-synchronized versions of collections. IMHO, the protection should happen in your app, and basic collections do not have to be thread safe. > > Sven > >> #shuffle does not use Collection>>mutexForPicking as other users of #randomForPicking demonstrate. This can lead to race conditions (found in our application). >> >> In addition, there are now #shuffle, #shuffled, #shuffleBy: and #shuffledBy: where #shuffled and #shuffledBy: shuffle a copy and answers that. This is very confusing. >> >> I propose a fix where #shuffled and #shuffledBy: are renamed to #copyShuffle and #copyShuffledBy: and moved to the "copying" protocol. #shuffle and #copyShuffle will use the mutex to prevent race conditions.

Sept. 23, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Use pharo users mailing list

by H. Hirzel

On 9/23/13, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > Kilon wrote >>Here is a radical suggestion you probably don't want to hear. >>Close down Pharo users mailing list, redirect everyone to stackoverflow. > > Definitely not. Stackoverflow is nearly dead, and seriously unsuitable for > small languages. There are obstacles but one cannot say that it is "seriously unsuitable". Stackoverflow question demand a certain format, typically something like - statement of what you want to accomplish - attempt a solution with code which has problems - question >Good questions will get closed by clueless people. Mostly if the form does not fit. And if there are Pharo people (maybe earned in another area) with enough reputation points this may be prevented > Good answers will get downvoted because they go against majority > views. Why? >The ranking system is heavily skewed towards popular languages. It is based on the number of hits which is naturally less in less popular languages. However subcommunities may function well in stackoverflow. the tagging and referencing system is excellent. > Stackoverflow doesn't allow discussions (and interesting questions), No, but that is not the aim of the site. It is a question and answer site for _coding_ and maybe _design_ problems to a certain extent. However it allows for wiki pages. Any answer may be turned into a wiki page. > which is a major reason to have these lists. List are good in addition. --Hannes > To see for yourself, take a look at the questions related to OODBs. > > Stephan > >

Sept. 23, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Extending HelpTopic

by Esteban Lorenzano

please, do not take it as a disincentive to collaborate, this should be quite the opposite :) I was trying to ask for some patience because when you join into a collaborative community, obviously the times spent on "the process" will be different than if you work alone. The gain is obvious, but we often lose from mind the price to pay (you do not control all the stages of the process). So, if you submit something, it will be some time to get the feedback (time to people to notice your change, to see it, etc.). Also, I was not talking about Marcus, Stef or me... since we are not the reviewers (that's also a responsibility of everybody in the community): we are just the integrators. So please, continue committing changes to the process... the review will come :) btw... one thing that I usually do when working: I commit slices even if they are not ready. Then I continue submitting slices until work is done... then I move the fix to "review needed". That way you can work in big changes and also be preparing a SLICE for the right moment. cheers, Esteban On Sep 23, 2013, at 11:19 AM, kilon <thekilon(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > EstebanLM wrote >> also, putting your code in "review needed" would help to reviewers to >> notice that you submitted something :) >> >> On Sep 23, 2013, at 11:07 AM, Esteban Lorenzano < > >> estebanlm@ > >> > wrote: >> >>> you submitted yesterday... a sunday... and we have a not so big >>> community, and all of us has a lot of tasks and things to do. >>> you should be a bit more patient :) >>> >>> Esteban >>> >>> On Sep 23, 2013, at 10:56 AM, kilon < > >> thekilon@.co > >> > wrote: >>> >>>> I take it from the silence , there is no interest in my code :D >>>> >>>> That's fine I will create my own HelpTopic class and keep it independent >>>> from pharo internal libs so I dont have to bother people with slices >>>> they >>>> don't deem important :) Makes my life easier too ;) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> View this message in context: >>>> http://forum.world.st/Extending-HelpTopic-tp4709645p4709730.html >>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >>>> Nabble.com. >>>> >>> > > No problemo this is why I submitted this slice to see how the overall > process work and gain some experience so when the time comes to fix a pharo > bug I can do it properly. > > yeah this is why I decided to keep code bases separate. I don't see a need > for me to wait so long for a review to my code cause I will want to move on > eventually. And plus I create more work for you and as you said there too > few of you and you already very busy. And I totally understand that and I am > here to make your life easier and not harder ;) > > So its no problem I will continue the effort alone, and ping this list back > when I have something substantial to show. > > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Extending-HelpTopic-tp4709645p4709735.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

Sept. 23, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] How to find a not defined class in my image?

by ClÃ©ment Bera

Hello, Smalltalk at: #MyClassName => raise KeyNotFound Error if MyClassName does not exist => answers MyClassName if the class exists 2013/9/23 Sabine KnÃ¶fel <sabine.knoefel(a)gmail.com> > Hi, > > I am looking for a way to find out, if I have Classes referenced in my > image > which are not defined. > > I do this because I want to check, if my configurationOf is loading all the > stuff I want to load. > > In the code critics browser from world menu, there is "Class not > referenced" > but I can not find something like "Class referenced but not defined". > > How do you check this? > > Regards > Sabine > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/How-to-find-a-not-defined-class-in-my-image-tp4709737… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > >

Sept. 23, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Use pharo users mailing list

by kilon

And you think this affects pharo and smalltalk questions ? because as far I have seen, there is nothing to complain about. Even one of my questions about nbopengl whether i should use it could easily be closed and it did not. Maybe its bad with other languages , but so far it looks fine to me, am I missing something here ? Could you link pharo and smalltalk examples that indicate the problem ? Stephan Eggermont wrote > Kilon wrote: >>Excuse me I have just an allergy in the word "dead" so I could not resist. I remember for 3 days in a row there was some people popping in #smalltalk irc channel asking , why smalltalk is dead, how dead it is, why the corpse still smells and what >the autopsy revealed :D. I find people ... hilarious. > > That's my disappointment speaking. It was a great idea. > I'm an early stackoverflow user with 10K+ reputation. > The first year it was pretty good, but I've seen it rapidly detoriate > to the level where looking at random new questions > doesn't make sense anymore. The result of that is that there > is no longer the cross-pollination that made stackoverflow > an interesting site. > > Stephan -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Use-pharo-users-mailing-list-tp4709698p4709745.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Sept. 23, 2013