- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Outdated Bug [7245] Autocomplete highlighting out of sync w editor after partial match

by btc＠openinworld.com

Oct. 16, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] default monospaced code font

by btc＠openinworld.com

Nicolas Cellier wrote: > Pushing the newcomers argument: if newcomers are used to using if then else > and switch case, why did you deprecate usage caseOf:? > If newcomers argument counts, shouldn't we remove text editing, browser, > etc..., go back to file based development and create an eclipse (or emacs) > plugin? > > I saw very good arguments for proportional: more readable/natural/more text > on the line... > So I'm inlne with Pavel, > > Is there any argument for fixed space (but the hypothetical newcomer). > There are some times when we must educate rather than imitate. > > > Links [1] & [2] provide some good points both ways. I agree that we ultimately want to educate - but sometimes its good to avoid educating too-much at once. I think the point is that fonts are not a "distinctive" feature Smalltalk, although Eliot argued Smalltalk it has a tighter binding that other languages. Even so, lets not deter newcomers on the basis of fonts before we hook them with experience of Smalltalk's advantages. Before you consider glossing over this thinking "it shouldn't be a big deal to newcomers, they should get over it" consider the emotion evoked in this thread. One significant cognitive rule of persuasion is "that you cannot use logic to argue a decision made on the basis emotion". I think it is useful for newcomers to have time to absorb the alien nature of Smalltalk without the distraction of acclimatising to a different font regime. Some interesting points I picked up. * Most proportional fonts are designed for prose and only little punctuation (which in turn is usually one or rarely two characters). The C family of languages have lots of punctuation, which simply does not look good [with proportional] and is harder to read than necessary. [2] [and Smalltalk is more like prose.] * [With proportional...] feel better about using longer, more descriptive variable names (maybe because they scan better, maybe because the horizontal size of the text is compressed) [2] * All it takes is a few hours of trying to figure out why a search isn't finding something because you have 2 spaces instead of 1 in your literal, to realize you should use Monospace fonts. [2] * With monospace you can select rectangular sections [1] Not sure how well that relates to Smalltalk. Now having tried the directions provided by Pavel to sample the new font, upon review of a small amount of code, I quite like the font. In comparison the proportional font seems too compressed. However this could be resolved for the proportional font by making the 'spaces' wider. (One of the central features of graphic design is liberal use of whitespace.) In the end I am sitting on the fence. Perhaps there just needs to be a welcome screen that with a big switch easily thrown between the choices, along with a couple of others like Smart Quotes that are foreign and irritating to newcomers (and even though I sometime try again, I still struggle with and have to turn off) cheers -ben [1] http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/5473/does-anyone-prefer-prop… [2] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/218623/why-use-monospace-fonts-in-your-i…

Oct. 16, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Is there a Roadmap for Pharo 3.0 and Pharo 4.0

by btc＠openinworld.com

Oct. 16, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Is there a Roadmap for Pharo 3.0 and Pharo 4.0

by btc＠openinworld.com

Oct. 16, 2013

TxText status (was Re: bug: [4993] Typing cmd+L cancel all typing and we can't undo it [Terminated] )

by btc＠openinworld.com

Oct. 16, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] about your heated discussion on fonts from stef Ze wize and busy man

by Alexandre Bergel

Thanks! I will read it Alexandre On Oct 15, 2013, at 7:07 PM, Benjamin <benjamin.vanryseghem.pharo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Fernando wrote an article about it: http://fernandoolivero.wordpress.com/2013/09/08/begone-translucentcolor/ > > Ben > > On Oct 15, 2013, at 11:26 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > >> Just curious, >> What's wrong with translucent colors? >> >> Alexandre >> >>> Le 15-10-2013 Ã 16:46, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> a Ã©crit : >>> >>> Hi guys >>> >>> Two points: >>> - I'm sorry I got too busy to read the thread - when I have time for pharo I'm fighting with removing translucentColor and it explode my image. >>> I'm working on too many fronts and must close and finish some of my tasks (admininistration/team management included). >>> >>> - Pay attention not to put too much heat in your discussions. ;D >>> >>> Stef >> > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Oct. 15, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] default monospaced code font

by Paul DeBruicker

philippeback wrote > Theming Pharo dark is a major undertaking (as colors are all over in the > most erratic possible way - for fun, turn the background of controls to > nuclear green and see where that shows). And trying to lake one proved to > be non useful on 2.0 as 3.0 has everything changed already (as Ben showed > me at one point). I know this is not what you mean but in the Mac if you go to System Preferences >> Accessiblity >> Display there is a setting for 'Invert Colors' which is not awful. <http://forum.world.st/file/n4714688/Screen_Shot_2013-10-15_at_3.44.09_PM.png> -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/default-monospaced-code-font-tp4714433p4714688.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 15, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] default monospaced code font

by Martin Dias

I have been using the Source Code Pro fonts for some weeks and now I have to say that I like them a lot. At the first moment my reaction was bad but very soon I started to like them. Please give them a try. MartÃn On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 10:01 PM, Guillermo Polito < guillermopolito(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I like those fonts, and are actually my default setup (+ the new plain > them also) :) > > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 9:29 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu>wrote: > >> OK, so with Pavel's code I got my 3.0 image capable of showing the new >> fonts. Since I do respect those arguing in favour, I will give it a try - >> but I am still not sure why it had to change in the first place. >> >> I think the progression from Small to Medium is skipping at least one >> step (10 -> 13), here is my setup for now: >> >> >> >> On 15 Oct 2013, at 18:28, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> >> >> On 15 Oct 2013, at 17:29, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I am in favor of using monospaced fonts for the code and sans serif fonts >> for the rest of the things. I pushed the Source Sans + Source Code fonts >> for the Moose image since half a year, and actually people like the look of >> them. I am a bit surprised to see such virulent reactions :). >> >> @Sven: the mail discussions that led to the fonts choice had you in CC >> the whole time :). >> >> >> OK, maybe a didn't pay enough attention: I knew it was about look and >> feel and (a) new font(s), I failed to register that it actually was about >> using a monospaced font. >> >> I can't belief that you are surprised about the reactions ;-) >> >> For what it is worth, I still haven't heard any solid argument for the >> change. Even if it is just aesthetics and it doesn't make a difference, >> there is still the question why we have to change. >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> >> wrote: >> >> On 15 Oct 2013, at 17:05, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> On Oct 15, 2013, at 4:52 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> >> >> On 15 Oct 2013, at 16:35, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> except that it is not accurate :) >> >> - with a monospace you can have bolds and italic without problems (it is >> a decent one)... and you also can play with sizes (for example, for >> comments) >> - when you copy&paste you will lose part of your formatting no matter if >> you have a fixed font or a proportional one (is not true that you lose all >> of them... in fact I usually do not lose any) >> >> >> Sorry, but there are no sensible arguments in favour of a monospaced >> font. It is just not needed (in Smalltalk). Another way to look at it is: >> 99.99 % of the world use proportional fonts. >> >> BTW, I think whoever made this 'decision' knew it would be _very_ hard to >> get this passed ;-) >> >> Maybe we should switch to C/Java/Javascript syntax so that we do not >> scare newcomers ? Sorry, I could not resist. >> >> not taken. >> and non sense. >> idea is to welcome newcomers, not to became another language. >> Now... if font is *part* of the language, we could be talking about the >> same. But since it is not, then we are comparing apples with tomatoes. >> >> I can say that no, 99% of the world do not use proportional fonts... >> every other programing environment uses monospaced fonts. >> yeah, I know "we are different"... but we still code. Ah, no, sorry... we >> "manipulate objects", but that looks really close to coding for me. >> >> and yes... I was expecting a lot of whining (even if it was not me >> *alone* who took the decision), but I was expecting from people at least >> wait to see the fonts before start the bashing ;) >> >> >> Well, it is not 'bashing', I just totally do not agree. >> And I would like to know who else is in favour, how the decision was made. >> But I'll wait a bit for other comments. >> >> On Oct 15, 2013, at 3:53 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> >> Excellent arguments ! >> I am with you 100% >> >> On 15 Oct 2013, at 15:21, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Since the days when editors was able to allow me using any fonts, i was >> always switching to variable-spaced font >> for code pane. And i am not speaking about smalltalk or pharo here, it >> was C and Pascal those days :) >> >> guess, what i would prefer in pharo? :) >> >> The bad things about getting used to monospaced fonts is that you format >> code and it looks perfect, >> but then you print it or copy/paste it somewhere else where it uses other >> font, and all your beautiful formatting are gone. >> Needless to say, that printing press was invented way before first >> computer or digital printer, and all we know about fonts came >> to us from the printing world.. and i think i would be right saying that >> before first digital printers there was not such thing as monospaced >> fonts, because it is not economically efficient: you don't want to waste >> space on front page of your newspaper by aligning glyphs to some virtual >> grid. >> More than that, it works well only if you using same font size and no >> bold/underline variants whatever.. as soon as you use variants or different >> font size, >> all the benefits of 'formatting' using monospaced font is gone. >> That means, if we employ monospaced font for code, we will be forced to >> not use bold/italic variants, or different font size (for instance, >> i would be like to play with code highlight scheme, where comments using >> different font size, or where method name uses bigger font size etc). >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Every thing has its own flow" >> >> >> >> >

Oct. 15, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] about your heated discussion on fonts from stef Ze wize and busy man

by Benjamin

Fernando wrote an article about it: http://fernandoolivero.wordpress.com/2013/09/08/begone-translucentcolor/ Ben On Oct 15, 2013, at 11:26 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > Just curious, > What's wrong with translucent colors? > > Alexandre > >> Le 15-10-2013 Ã 16:46, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> a Ã©crit : >> >> Hi guys >> >> Two points: >> - I'm sorry I got too busy to read the thread - when I have time for pharo I'm fighting with removing translucentColor and it explode my image. >> I'm working on too many fronts and must close and finish some of my tasks (admininistration/team management included). >> >> - Pay attention not to put too much heat in your discussions. ;D >> >> Stef >

Oct. 15, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] about your heated discussion on fonts from stef Ze wize and busy man

by Alexandre Bergel

Just curious, What's wrong with translucent colors? Alexandre > Le 15-10-2013 Ã 16:46, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> a Ã©crit : > > Hi guys > > Two points: > - I'm sorry I got too busy to read the thread - when I have time for pharo I'm fighting with removing translucentColor and it explode my image. > I'm working on too many fronts and must close and finish some of my tasks (admininistration/team management included). > > - Pay attention not to put too much heat in your discussions. ;D > > Stef

Oct. 15, 2013