- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Some clarifications (was DebugSession>>activePC:)

by Eliot Miranda

Hi Stef, thanks for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully. On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 12:20 AM ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> wrote: > Hi Eliot > > I would like to make some clarifications. > > Preamble: > -------------- > I was thinking that I should not reply but I think that I have the right > to clarify a bit because I do not like several points. > I reply as Stef "the guy that had the vision of Pharo and that spent 10 > years pushing and building Pharo.â > So I think that it makes me credible enough. > You do not have to defend your credentials. The community is aware of your contributions. > > My points: > ------------- > - With you this is always the same: Iâm too emotional and it ends > everything. Stephane is emotional > so we cannot communicate with him. You often place yourself as a > professional and that Iâm emotional. > Could you stop this little game because to me it starts to be a > bit boring? Or I will just put a filter and > trash systematically your emails. > I do not say "Stephane is emotional so we cannot communicate with him.". I do think you let your emotions show too much and that it makes communication with you difficult. But more importantly, a leader is more effective if they can reign in their emotions and not criticize people in public, and so on. I mention your emotionality not to denigrate you but to hope that communication in the community can improve. You have as much to gain as anyone, arguably more, from not taking things so personally and being less emotional. If we analyze the above statement we see that it is coercive: stop criticizing my emotionality or I will stop reading your emails. One could instead be open: "Why is it that you criticize me as being emotional?", "Can you give me evidence of me being emotional?" etc. Instead you open with a defensive position, and with a threat. If, later on, having started filtering out my emails, you found you had to respond again, because we have common interests and those interests cause us to need to interact, you will put yourself in a weak position having to back track on your filtering. - Last week you told us that time bombing our process was a bad > idea in an answer about settings > keeping references instead of releasing them. > No. I said that my opinion is that time boxing releases is a bad idea. This is not about settings, it is about the content of releases. For me, a release is done when it satisfactorily meets objective release criteria: tests pass, a subset of new features planned for the release are functional, etc. That releasing something that is incomplete or broken does not help. I base this on long experience with VisualWorks, Qwaq and Squeak. First this had nothing to do with the problem. > You see P7 was delayed because we considered that the system was > not ready but P7 should be released. > May I make the remark that the world is using time-based delivery? > May I make the remark that what others choose to do does not make it right? > - About CMake, you may be right that makefile is better than CMake > but a part of the world is using > CMake and the net result is that we lost our effort and > infrastructure just to follow you. Ronie uses CMake. > Igor which I consider as a talented developer used CMake because > he thought it was the best tool > he should use. > Yes, and I disagree about the way that they use it, and for good reason. I have defended my use of Makefiles for a long time, for objective reasons. I have also proposed good ways for using CMake (to derive a platform-specific header file defining available platform-specific features). But my objection to Igor's process was that he generated sources on each build. And my objections to Ronie's use of CMake for the minheadless build are that a) it is slow and b) explicit feature sets are much better than the implicit feature sets that arise when using CMake. > - About infrastructure and process. > I wanted to check the REplugin this week end because we should use > it since the world > is using Perl reg-expression and I could not find the code of the > plugin on github. > I saw that some plugin code is not even versioned and only > available on a strange ftp and it was surprising > to me. Iâm still surprised that after 3 years (when esteban > requested that all plugin code are grouped together > in a single place, this is still not the case). > Esteban is free to move the code into VMMaker.oscog. VMMaker.oscog below to the community. It is wrong to expect me, a member of that community, to do all the leg work. The VM is called opensmalltalk-vm for a reason. > - Did it not look strange to you that Esteban left the VM list in > the past? > Esteban looks like a reasonable and stable person to me. > Would you like to expand on this? I find your sentence vague. If you have specifics you would like to address I am open to hearing them. > - You are systematically telling to me that Iâm offended when > people criticized us. Iâm not offended by critics. > We are not offended by critics. > We have internal emails that are much more violent about our own > process. > Wow, that does not sound good. Surely a discussion over process does not have to be violent. > We are not blind and we reflect on our own process and we invite > people to REPORT problems. > Do you invite them to discuss problems also? Is the only avenue by which a problem can be raised through a bug tracker? What is the bug that covers this discussion? > Now we ask people to be credible when they do it because we are > busy > - report situation > - step by step reproducibility > - proportionality of the voice versus the problem > - and not been offensive > > We did not see any official reports about problems that we may > have introduced. > > - You are vocal about âinstability". And you report that one > method changed. Seriously? > Are you not exagerating a bit? > My comment comes from the frustration of having prepared a functional system in Pharo 6 only to find that it no longer works in Pharo 7. Am I wrong to feel frustrated? Would you not also feel frustrated? Would you not also want to discuss this? Would you not also, as the maintainer of a package upon which Pharo depends, want to have that package well-supported and n to be one that is frequently broken? Let us talk about instability: > - When we talk about instability we talk about the fact > that we cannot use for real ephemerons > because they corrupt the memory and that we get random > crash. > Um, I have reached out on numerous occasions for test cases. I haven't received a test case or complaint on ephemeris for many months, perhaps over a year (I will check). I am very motivated to fix these problems. Please bring them to my attention on vm-dev. They will receive prompt attention. I love working on this part of the system, ads does ClÃ©ment. I am eager to see ephemeris deployed in Squeak, Pharo and Cuis, especially to improve file handling, specifically arranging that files are flushed on close, and that we do not have two copies (one inevitably out of date) of each file, simply to arrange that file handles are closed on finalization. > - We had instability when we have memory leaks that > randomly slows down Pharo. > Indeed, and memory leaks are not necessarily caused by the GC, but by handles to external memory, something that affects Pharo deeply because its graphics model uses external libraries, and hence requires more careful interfacing with external libraries, something that would be improved by having reliable ephemeron support. I am quite confident that there are no memory leaks in the Spur GC; but I'm happy to be proved wrong and, along with ClÃ©ment, who is currently doing great work on the GC, work that we hope to show a string publication for very soon, I will be happy to attempt to fix any memory leaks that are the fault of the GC, and not thin the FFI. > - We had instability which delays our release with a bug > in FFI that made cairo crash on windows 64 bits. > Yes, there are bugs in the VM. And what's your point? > If you want to interact with us (and not only me, because Iâm the tip of > the iceberg > and many people are frustrated by your attitude), let us start with > positive communication and attitude: > > - You express your problems and we see how we (together) can fix > them. > That's what I'm trying to do. > > - You can contribute by writing tests and by entering bug entries > in the bug tracker. > I write tests in VMMaker and elsewhere. Being able to load VMMaker into Pharo and run the simulator, generate sources, do in-image compilation, and run its test suites is a significant number of tests. I work principally in Squeak. I interact with lots of people in the Pharo community. I am here, interacting now. > About Pharo: > ââââââââ > We understand that some people do not like it but we do not force anybody > use and make business with it. > Now I want to make something super clear: Pharo will not sacrifice agility > and improvements on the altar of > compatibility with Squeak. > I am not asking that the Pharo community do that. I am asking that the VMMaker package continue to work from releases to release. From Pharo 6 to Pharo 7 that did not happen. Pharo will change because Pharo is agile and because many things should be > improved. > and because it has a high-quality VM beneath it that has improved performance exponentially in the move from interpreter, stack interpreter, cog v1 and spur, and should continue to do so through Sista. We are all working hard to make things better. We pay real attention about backwards compatibility. Much more than people > think. > Because we have many external projects and libraries that we support. > Now if Pharo is used to build the VM then we will have to find a way to > pay attention. > And we will reinvest in building a process that checks this. > Good; thank you. > > Our problem is that integration time cannot take hours and right now > validating Pharo is > a bit too long. We will work on it. > > We strongly advocate to invest in tests. Tests are a good mechanisms to > support evolution. > If you have tests we can automatically rewrite deprecated methods and we > will use this more often. > > We finally start to have: > - a better compiler and not an ancient one which reported error as > Morph. > - a better architecture, more modular > - a real bootstrap (we should improve it and build tools to > support it - we are working on it) > - strong libraries (File, Stream, HTTP) more documented and tested > - better tools (Iceberg and Calypso are definitively steps in the > right direction) > And we will continue to improve. > We will iterate on all these to make Pharo even better. > We are writing more tests to support those changes. > Glad to hear it. And I'm very much aware of this work and support it wholeheartedly. And in the VM we are doing similar things. > I repeat it: I think that we are doing a pretty good job about the quality > that we deliver. > I agree. > Stef > Thank you. Eliot > > > > On 11 Jan 2019, at 18:54, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hi Stef, > > > >> On Jan 10, 2019, at 7:59 AM, ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> wrote: > >> > >> Eliot I would like also two points to this. > >> > >> - First we asked thomas to write tests about the debugger model and you > see if they would be tests about methods we could understand > >> that they are used and control what they do. So we should all thank > thomas for his energy in this not so easy task. > >> > >> - Second it would be nice if you could refrain to be systematically > negative about what we are doing. I think that our development process > >> is much better than many others :) It is not perfect because this does > not exist. > >> I think that we are doing a great job make Smalltalk cool. And yes it > may happen that one untested, undocumented method > >> get lost. I think that we are doing pretty good given the resources we > have. > > > > Even more serious an issue for the Pharo community than a development > process which fails to support the Nedâs of users is a defensive attitude > that does not want to discuss serious issues maturely. I bring up the > stability and backward-portability issue because it is *important*; it has > affected ClÃ©mentâs ability to deliver Sista and my and feenkâs efforts to > support VM development on Pharo. If your response to my trying to discuss > seriously and objectively a problem that needs discussion is always to say > âplease donât be negativeâ I have even less confidence that Pharo can be a > realistic platform for my work and the work of others. > > > > > >> Stef > >> > >>> On 10 Jan 2019, at 15:11, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Thomas, > >>> > >>>> On Jan 10, 2019, at 2:24 AM, Thomas Dupriez via Pharo-dev < > pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> <mime-attachment> > >>> > >>> in a stack of contexts the active pc is different for the top > context. For other than the top context, a contextâs pc will be pointing > after the send that created the context above it, so to find the pc of the > send one finds the previous pc. For the top context its pc is the active > pc. > >>> > >>> Typically the debugger is invoked in two different modes, interruption > or exception. When interrupted, a process is stopped at the next suspension > point (method entry or backward branch) and the top context in the process > is the context to be displayed in the debugger. When an exception occurs > the exception search machinery will find the signaling context, the context > that raised the exception, which will be below the search machinery and the > debugger invocation above that. The active pc of the signaling context will > be the of for the send of digbsl et al. > >>> > >>> So the distinction is important and the utility method is probably > useful. > >>> > >>> Do you want to remove the method simply because there are no senders > in the image? > >>> > >>> If so, this is indicative of a serious problem with the Pharo > development process. In the summer I ported VMMaker.oscog to Pharo 6. Now > as feenk try and build a VMMaker.oscog image on Pharo 7, the system is > broken, in part because of depreciations and in part because useful methods > (isOptimisedBlock (isOptimizedBlock?) in the Opal compiler) have been > removed. > >>> > >>> Just because a method is not in the image does not imply it is not in > use. It simply means that it is not in use in the base image. As the > system gets modularised this issue will only increase. There are lots of > collection methods that exist as a library that are not used in the base > image and removing them would clearly damage the library for users. This > is the case for lots of so-called system code. There are users out there, > like those of us in the vm team, who rely on such system code, and it is > extremely unsettling and frustrating to have that system code change all > the time. If Pharo is to be a useful platform to the vm team it has to be > more stable. > >> > >> > >> > > > > -- _,,,^..^,,,_ best, Eliot

Jan. 16, 2019

Smalltalks 2018 videos are live

by Gabriel Cotelli

Hi, We finished uploading all the videos of the conference. You can get the links and related info here <https://smalltalks2018.fast.org.ar/talks>. Regards, Gabriel in name of FAST

Jan. 16, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] Looking for contributor names

by Bernardo Ezequiel Contreras

-vonbecmann: Bernardo E. Contreras On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 11:31 AM Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Is that time of the year (well, this time was more than one year) when I > ask for the names of people who contributed to Pharo but didnât put their > names. > I thought this was going to be fixed with the move to GitHub, but seems > that also there, there are people that does not use names :) > > So, Iâm missing this names: > > - vonbecmann > - Karnaj > - dupriezt > - pierretsap > - akevalion > - Marmat21 > > If you are one of those, or you know the name of one of those, please tell > me. > > Esteban > > Ps: Yes, that means we are very-very close of the release :) > -- Bernardo E.C. Sent from a cheap desktop computer in South America.

Jan. 16, 2019

[Pharo 7.0] Build #126: 22891-Callbacks-with-more-than-4-parameters-in-Win64-is-not-working

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #126 was: SUCCESS. The Pull Request #2220 was integrated: "22891-Callbacks-with-more-than-4-parameters-in-Win64-is-not-working" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/2220 Issue Url: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/22891 Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Jan. 16, 2019

[Pharo 7.0] Build #125: Replace arg1 by aPath

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #125 was: SUCCESS. The Pull Request #2253 was integrated: "Replace arg1 by aPath" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/2253 Issue Url: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/patch Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Jan. 16, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] Apparently Zodiac plugin can crash VM on Linux

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 16 Jan 2019, at 16:28, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On 15 Jan 2019, at 22:59, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > > Doing HTTPS client calls is part of the standard test suite, so it should work, else we would not have a green build. It works for me and for the CI. > What exactly is he doing ? Is it reproducible ? > > Yes, consistently. How ? > Can he try with a fresh downloaded image+vm ? > > I quote: > > @embee > i have tested https://files.pharo.org/get-files/70/pharo64-linux-stable.zip and https://files.pharo.org/get-files/70/pharo64-linux-latest.zip > i hope those are the right ones. both crash > > @maxleske > Thanks. I'll report that. > Was that also with a fresh image? > i.e. you can also reprocude it with a fresh image, right? > > @embee > yes > > On 15 Jan 2019, at 22:20, Max Leske maxleske(a)gmail.com wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm writing on behalf of Martin (eMBee) who's experiencing crashes when using SSL. You can find a VM crash stack trace here: http://ws.stfx.eu/AKVNLUPMPGLG. > > He says he hasn't updated openssl since December 15th but that the crashes started to happen only recently (within the last couple of days). I asked him to try HTTP only connections and those work. The VM crashes immediately when using SSL. To me it looks like the cuplrit is the Zodiac plugin, or at least the library it works with. > > His system: > linux, fedora 29, and from the system reporter i get: Pharo/vms/70-x64/lib/pharo/5.0-201806281256/pharo > CoInterpreter VMMaker.oscog-eem.2401 uuid: 29232e0e-c9e3-41d8-ae75-519db862e02c Jun 28 2018 > StackToRegisterMappingCogit VMMaker.oscog-eem.2401 uuid: 29232e0e-c9e3-41d8-ae75-519db862e02c Jun 28 2018 > VM: 201806281256 https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm.git Date: Thu Jun 28 14:56:30 2018 CommitHash: a8a1dc1 Plugins: 201806281256 https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm.git > > cheers, > Max >

Jan. 16, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] Apparently Zodiac plugin can crash VM on Linux

by Max Leske

On 15 Jan 2019, at 22:59, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > Doing HTTPS client calls is part of the standard test suite, so it > should work, else we would not have a green build. > > What exactly is he doing ? Is it reproducible ? Yes, consistently. > > Can he try with a fresh downloaded image+vm ? I quote: @embee i have tested https://files.pharo.org/get-files/70/pharo64-linux-stable.zip and https://files.pharo.org/get-files/70/pharo64-linux-latest.zip i hope those are the right ones. both crash @maxleske Thanks. I'll report that. Was that also with a fresh image? i.e. you can also reprocude it with a fresh image, right? @embee yes > >> On 15 Jan 2019, at 22:20, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I'm writing on behalf of Martin (eMBee) who's experiencing crashes >> when using SSL. You can find a VM crash stack trace here: >> http://ws.stfx.eu/AKVNLUPMPGLG. >> >> He says he hasn't updated openssl since December 15th but that the >> crashes started to happen only recently (within the last couple of >> days). I asked him to try HTTP only connections and those work. The >> VM crashes immediately when using SSL. To me it looks like the >> cuplrit is the Zodiac plugin, or at least the library it works with. >> >> His system: >> linux, fedora 29, and from the system reporter i get: >> Pharo/vms/70-x64/lib/pharo/5.0-201806281256/pharo >> CoInterpreter VMMaker.oscog-eem.2401 uuid: >> 29232e0e-c9e3-41d8-ae75-519db862e02c Jun 28 2018 >> StackToRegisterMappingCogit VMMaker.oscog-eem.2401 uuid: >> 29232e0e-c9e3-41d8-ae75-519db862e02c Jun 28 2018 >> VM: 201806281256 >> https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm.git Date: Thu Jun >> 28 14:56:30 2018 CommitHash: a8a1dc1 Plugins: 201806281256 >> https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm.git >> >> cheers, >> Max

Jan. 16, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] Looking for contributor names

by ducasse

> On 16 Jan 2019, at 15:30, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > Is that time of the year (well, this time was more than one year) when I ask for the names of people who contributed to Pharo but didnât put their names. > I thought this was going to be fixed with the move to GitHub, but seems that also there, there are people that does not use names :) > > So, Iâm missing this names: > > - vonbecmann Von Becmann > - Karnaj Yoann Geran > - dupriezt Thomas Dupriez > - pierretsap Pierre Tsapliayeu > - akevalion Asbathou Biyalou-Sama <asbathou.biyalou-sama(a)inria.fr> > - Marmat21 > > If you are one of those, or you know the name of one of those, please tell me. > > Esteban > > Ps: Yes, that means we are very-very close of the release :)

Jan. 16, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] Looking for contributor names

by Esteban Lorenzano

Got them, thanks ! > On 16 Jan 2019, at 15:30, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > Is that time of the year (well, this time was more than one year) when I ask for the names of people who contributed to Pharo but didnât put their names. > I thought this was going to be fixed with the move to GitHub, but seems that also there, there are people that does not use names :) > > So, Iâm missing this names: > > - vonbecmann > - Karnaj > - dupriezt > - pierretsap > - akevalion > - Marmat21 > > If you are one of those, or you know the name of one of those, please tell me. > > Esteban > > Ps: Yes, that means we are very-very close of the release :)

Jan. 16, 2019

Looking for contributor names

by Esteban Lorenzano

Hi, Is that time of the year (well, this time was more than one year) when I ask for the names of people who contributed to Pharo but didnât put their names. I thought this was going to be fixed with the move to GitHub, but seems that also there, there are people that does not use names :) So, Iâm missing this names: - vonbecmann - Karnaj - dupriezt - pierretsap - akevalion - Marmat21 If you are one of those, or you know the name of one of those, please tell me. Esteban Ps: Yes, that means we are very-very close of the release :)

Jan. 16, 2019