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Re: [Pharo-dev] Losing instance variable addition

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:37 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Or, you infer the right order, for example from the AST of each initializer you should be able to get the dependency graph... > My own preference goes to laziness ;) me too. Same for ClassVariables they should be totally self initializable without dependencies. Stef > > > 2013/10/31 Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com> > Unless initialization is lazy (and you arrange for avoiding/detecting circular dependency) > > > 2013/10/31 Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com> > And you're going to bump into slot initialization order... > > > 2013/10/31 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > > On Oct 30, 2013, at 10:54 PM, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On 2013-10-30, at 22:36, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> I don't think there's something to fix. > >> You cannot 'extend' classes belonging to other package in any other way > >> than adding extension methods. > >> Allowing extension of ivars or any other vars by foreign package > >> is road to nowhere. > >> > >> I would not like if shape of my kernel classes depends on what packages i load > >> or in what order i loaded them. > >> To me it is clear that if one needs to add/remove/modify instance variables > >> of some class, those changes should belong to the package containing that class, > >> not some random package. > > > > Exactly, it would cause the same problem as we have with overrides in monticello > > Sorry but this is not the same as having overrides in Monticello. It is the same as having class extensions! > So class extensions are powerful and we should get the same for instance variables. > > Now the real question is not shape is how you garantee that it is well initialized!!! > Because you do not want to extend initialize because it does not work modularly. > Now with slot we can attach initializers to them and then we can get it modular. > > Stef > > > > >

Oct. 31, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Losing instance variable addition

by Nicolas Cellier

Or, you infer the right order, for example from the AST of each initializer you should be able to get the dependency graph... My own preference goes to laziness ;) 2013/10/31 Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com> > Unless initialization is lazy (and you arrange for avoiding/detecting > circular dependency) > > > 2013/10/31 Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com> > >> And you're going to bump into slot initialization order... >> >> >> 2013/10/31 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> >> >>> >>> On Oct 30, 2013, at 10:54 PM, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > >>> > On 2013-10-30, at 22:36, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> > >>> >> I don't think there's something to fix. >>> >> You cannot 'extend' classes belonging to other package in any other >>> way >>> >> than adding extension methods. >>> >> Allowing extension of ivars or any other vars by foreign package >>> >> is road to nowhere. >>> >> >>> >> I would not like if shape of my kernel classes depends on what >>> packages i load >>> >> or in what order i loaded them. >>> >> To me it is clear that if one needs to add/remove/modify instance >>> variables >>> >> of some class, those changes should belong to the package containing >>> that class, >>> >> not some random package. >>> > >>> > Exactly, it would cause the same problem as we have with overrides in >>> monticello >>> >>> Sorry but this is not the same as having overrides in Monticello. It is >>> the same as having class extensions! >>> So class extensions are powerful and we should get the same for instance >>> variables. >>> >>> Now the real question is not shape is how you garantee that it is well >>> initialized!!! >>> Because you do not want to extend initialize because it does not work >>> modularly. >>> Now with slot we can attach initializers to them and then we can get it >>> modular. >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> >>> >> >

Oct. 31, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Losing instance variable addition

by Nicolas Cellier

Unless initialization is lazy (and you arrange for avoiding/detecting circular dependency) 2013/10/31 Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com> > And you're going to bump into slot initialization order... > > > 2013/10/31 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > >> >> On Oct 30, 2013, at 10:54 PM, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> > >> > On 2013-10-30, at 22:36, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> >> I don't think there's something to fix. >> >> You cannot 'extend' classes belonging to other package in any other way >> >> than adding extension methods. >> >> Allowing extension of ivars or any other vars by foreign package >> >> is road to nowhere. >> >> >> >> I would not like if shape of my kernel classes depends on what >> packages i load >> >> or in what order i loaded them. >> >> To me it is clear that if one needs to add/remove/modify instance >> variables >> >> of some class, those changes should belong to the package containing >> that class, >> >> not some random package. >> > >> > Exactly, it would cause the same problem as we have with overrides in >> monticello >> >> Sorry but this is not the same as having overrides in Monticello. It is >> the same as having class extensions! >> So class extensions are powerful and we should get the same for instance >> variables. >> >> Now the real question is not shape is how you garantee that it is well >> initialized!!! >> Because you do not want to extend initialize because it does not work >> modularly. >> Now with slot we can attach initializers to them and then we can get it >> modular. >> >> Stef >> >> >> >

Oct. 31, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Losing instance variable addition

by Nicolas Cellier

And you're going to bump into slot initialization order... 2013/10/31 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > > On Oct 30, 2013, at 10:54 PM, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > On 2013-10-30, at 22:36, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> I don't think there's something to fix. > >> You cannot 'extend' classes belonging to other package in any other way > >> than adding extension methods. > >> Allowing extension of ivars or any other vars by foreign package > >> is road to nowhere. > >> > >> I would not like if shape of my kernel classes depends on what packages > i load > >> or in what order i loaded them. > >> To me it is clear that if one needs to add/remove/modify instance > variables > >> of some class, those changes should belong to the package containing > that class, > >> not some random package. > > > > Exactly, it would cause the same problem as we have with overrides in > monticello > > Sorry but this is not the same as having overrides in Monticello. It is > the same as having class extensions! > So class extensions are powerful and we should get the same for instance > variables. > > Now the real question is not shape is how you garantee that it is well > initialized!!! > Because you do not want to extend initialize because it does not work > modularly. > Now with slot we can attach initializers to them and then we can get it > modular. > > Stef > > >

Oct. 31, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Using Gutenberg

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

read the latex we documented everything. We added [[[ with caption and ref]]] and what is missing is a kind of tag to manage ref, comment in text and other little stuff. After that we have everything needed to write real book. We should improve the latex macros. Stef >> here is the pier syntax do you tell me that this is difficult to learn? >> >> ! header >> !! >> !!! >> >> list >> - >> # >> >> ref >> * * >> >> [[[ code >> ]]] >> >> ==code== > > And what was added for Gutemberg?

Oct. 31, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Using Gutenberg

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>> Can you think two minutes in our place? > > I totally understand you. I was just telling my humble opinion. But it was silly because nobody really cares. This is not that we do not care. We already evaluated the situation. if this is to have to manage my own version of markdown I prefer to use pier for many reasons. Stef

Oct. 31, 2013

Questions about Athens

by kilon alios

I created a new subject About the problem to recreate it all it takes is a demo := AthensDemoMorph new openInWorld . It opens the morph with the Athens grey box, I save the image , close pharo, open pharo which reloads the image automagically and BOOM Red Box of Doom :) My other tries also are based on AthensDemoMorph since I cant find documentation to do things differently. So lets get to the questions 1) You say you have morphs using Athens that don't have this problem, care to explain further ? 2) How do I recreate automatically those surfaces ? 3) Do I need to instruct the image on load to reinitialize those objects ? 4) If yes How I do that ? You say its a major problem but yet its not an Athens bug. I know this is has to do with how image saves live objects and that NB calls are not part of the image hence creating the problem. 5) Are there ways to avoid the problem ? 6) Also why there is a Red Box of Doom in the first place ? 7) Why the debugger is not triggered as it should be ? 8) Is that critical a failure of Morphic ? 9) Why Athens even though is based largely on Cairo , and taking into consideration the intention to extend to other graphical interfaces, not following the Cairo design more closely so we can use the Cairo tutorials ? 10) Is the Cairo design so prohibiting / limiting for Athens ? Does Cairo do things so differently than other vector based libraries ? 11) How important is Athens to Pharo community , meaning further bug fixes, improvements , tutorials etc ? I hear there is an intention to gradual move Morphic to it. Is this true ? I really like Athens, I am asking all these questions because I need to make a fast decision whether I will continue to use Pharo or not for my project. Learning OpenGL and using NBOpenGL produced zero results for me. I was not even able to create a single triangle. My gpu driver because of Macos gave me close to zero errors, and Red Box of Doom made it impossible to debug opengl problems. In short close to zero error reporting made it a no go for me. So I fall back at much simpler solutions because I want to create my own GUI API. I see several solutions for this 1) Pharo Athens 2) Amber SVG / WebGL based Vector libs like Pixi / Athens / HTML5 + CSS 3) Python + PyQT + QT I rather stay with Pharo. But I already wasted months of doing nothing and going nowhere with NBOpenGL , I am tried of moving in circles. I am not frustrated cause I knew when I tried that OpenGL was very hard ( I was warned by several opengl people ) so failure was always an option , but I can no longer justify wasting my time getting nowhere. I dont need much from a graphic lib all I need is a) Stability . If it crashes regularly its no good b) Speed, if moving graphic elements around slows down (anything above 20%) dual cores , its no good c) Basic Feature set like , lines, curves , circles and ellipses , display of raster graphics, simple animations , import export of graphic formats, png , jpg and svg is enough. Looks like Athens satisfies b and c , I am not so sure about a. I am trying to understand Athens code from reading it, once again I am a big failure at understanding code. So is there any hope for someone like me , that he is not a very good coder, he is new to Pharo and he has a simple mind to use Athens to make a basic GUI API ? On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 6:07 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On 31 October 2013 16:40, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> save the image while the morph is displayed, reload the image and in its >> place there is the big red box with the yellow X , reporting an error with >> Athens. I have reproduced the error on Windows too with the Athens >> examples. I assumed my explanation was clear , I hope its clear now. >> >> > no. not clear. which morph? what class, how you using it etc. > I have morphs which using Athens for drawing and i can save and load image > back and i don't have red squares of death. > > >> This means that its impossible to save an image with a morph using Athens >> displaying and have it reload back when the image is reloaded. >> >> The athens-surface, especially cairo surface is valid only within a > single session. > if you boot new image, you must recreate (or stop using) surface you used > in previous session. > Otherwise you will have red box of doom. > > And while i agree that this is pretty major problem (in terms of making > your morph to be session-aware > and in terms of managing external resources) i am far from calling it a > bug of Athens of any kind per se. > > > >> On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 5:05 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse < >> stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> >>> >>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:55 AM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> yes I am aware of the examples already, I am learning from them. Please >>> note I have found a bug with Athens, which looks to me pretty major. If I >>> save a morph using Athens >>> >>> >>> what do you mean save a morph >>> >>> and reload the image, >>> >>> >>> what do you mean? >>> >>> >>> I see the red box of doom. For example trying your example from >>> stackoverflow. Are you aware of this bug ? >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 2:43 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>wrote: >>> >>>> ah, yes , there's also examples in >>>> Athens-Examples package. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 31 October 2013 01:30, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 30 October 2013 23:02, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> well I just asked if there is any kind of Documentation about Athens >>>>>> . Or should I just read the code and ask questions ? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> the main source of documentation right now is class comments >>>>> and tutorial. >>>>> I've spent quite of a time commenting the central classes of athens, >>>>> hope that's helpful. >>>>> Of course this does not replacement for a well written docu, and that >>>>> needs to be done. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:51 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> i hope you satisfied with my answer. >>>>>>> you welcome to ask more, if you not :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 30 October 2013 22:32, dimitris chloupis <thekilon(a)yahoo.co.uk>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19694197/how-to-create-lines-with-athens >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>> Igor Stasenko. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> Igor Stasenko. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Best regards, >>>> Igor Stasenko. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. >

Oct. 31, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Losing instance variable addition

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Oct 30, 2013, at 10:54 PM, Camillo Bruni <camillobruni(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On 2013-10-30, at 22:36, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> I don't think there's something to fix. >> You cannot 'extend' classes belonging to other package in any other way >> than adding extension methods. >> Allowing extension of ivars or any other vars by foreign package >> is road to nowhere. >> >> I would not like if shape of my kernel classes depends on what packages i load >> or in what order i loaded them. >> To me it is clear that if one needs to add/remove/modify instance variables >> of some class, those changes should belong to the package containing that class, >> not some random package. > > Exactly, it would cause the same problem as we have with overrides in monticello Sorry but this is not the same as having overrides in Monticello. It is the same as having class extensions! So class extensions are powerful and we should get the same for instance variables. Now the real question is not shape is how you garantee that it is well initialized!!! Because you do not want to extend initialize because it does not work modularly. Now with slot we can attach initializers to them and then we can get it modular. Stef

Oct. 31, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Losing instance variable addition

by Marcus Denker

On 31 Oct 2013, at 18:12, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > On Oct 30, 2013, at 10:36 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> I don't think there's something to fix. >> You cannot 'extend' classes belonging to other package in any other way >> than adding extension methods. > > Exact this was my conclusion too. >> Allowing extension of ivars or any other vars by foreign package >> is road to nowhere. >> >> I would not like if shape of my kernel classes depends on what packages i load >> or in what order i loaded them. >> To me it is clear that if one needs to add/remove/modify instance variables >> of some class, those changes should belong to the package containing that class, >> not some random package. > > If that would be that simple :) > The case of Gisela is that her tool should extend AST node. The AST has a property dictionaryâ¦ not the nicest thing, but it could be used. Marcus

Oct. 31, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Changes in change browser or lists, a bug?

by Martin Dias

Hi Gisela! yes, I can reproduce the bug. On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Gisela Decuzzi <giseladecuzzi(a)gmail.com>wrote: > I wanted to navigate between changes in change browser and it seems that > is only possible using the checkbox, here is the case: > > https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/12046/Select-change-in-changeBrowser-clic… > > But not sure if this is a bug >

Oct. 31, 2013