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Re: [Pharo-dev] About Athens and Cairo

by kilon alios

No cairo is not GPU accelerated , rendering is done by your CPU , but of course the graphic card is the one that display things. here is a detailed explanation -> http://lists.cairographics.org/archives/cairo/2012-October/023609.html please note that even in the case of opengl backend I very much disagree that this is true hardware acceleration. What the opengl backend is doing is to render cairo surfaces as opengl textures. So even though the texture themselves are hardware accelerated and will even use the the memory of the GPU the process of rendering to the texture will happen solely on the CPU. So its more like a CPU library trying to be hardware accelerated. But even using the OS backends like Quartz is not quite the same. Because you still call C code and C code is executed by your CPU and that C code suppose to call GPU functions. Opengl speed is for the very reason of shaders meaning that it compiles programs that are run solely on the gpu hence true GPU acceleration. Saying that you should not be experiencing slow downs unless you were doing something really intense. I have seen benchmarks of Cairo and they are blazing fast. Usually slow down are primarily because of bad code. I have seen animation in athens take out 50% of my dual core and others only a 5%. Cant say I am sure what happens under the surface maybe Igor may offer a more detailed look into this. I do feel however that slow speed are 99% to be blamed on Pharo way of rendering things. Something similar happens for browsers, SVG is GPU accelerated, Javascript is super fast but it only takes the slowness of DOM (HTML) itself to bring the whole system on its knees. It only take one slow part to ruin the experience. I think a solution to this would be to bypass pharo rendering completely, create a new window and render directly to that window running Pharo headless. On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>wrote: > Hi! > > I have some random questions about the Cairo binding supported by Athens. > > - the rendering is done by the graphic card isnât it? > > - Once rendered, is the produced bitmap copied by the CPU in Pharo? With > Roassal3d, we are facing a problem of performance because there is an > unnecessary copy between the graphic card and the Form displayed by Pharo. > I guess we have the same problem with Cairo. > > - Is there an example of clipping in Cairo? > > - Any idea how efficient the clipping is? I mean, will I gain a lot by > not displaying elements located outside the visual part or should I leave > the clipping do the job? > > Cheers, > Alexandre > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > >

Dec. 14, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] About Athens and Cairo

by Hilaire Fernandes

Le 14/12/2013 09:58, Alexandre Bergel a Ã©crit : > - the rendering is done by the graphic card isnât it? I think it is sofware based, by the libcairo. Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

Dec. 14, 2013

Searching classes cmd-f cmd-c

by Alexandre Bergel

In the popup you obtain, you can enter a regular expression. So, if you enter ^Morph then you get the list of classes that begins with âMorphâ Iâve just discovered this :-) Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Dec. 14, 2013

About Athens and Cairo

by Alexandre Bergel

Hi! I have some random questions about the Cairo binding supported by Athens. - the rendering is done by the graphic card isnât it? - Once rendered, is the produced bitmap copied by the CPU in Pharo? With Roassal3d, we are facing a problem of performance because there is an unnecessary copy between the graphic card and the Form displayed by Pharo. I guess we have the same problem with Cairo. - Is there an example of clipping in Cairo? - Any idea how efficient the clipping is? I mean, will I gain a lot by not displaying elements located outside the visual part or should I leave the clipping do the job? Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Dec. 14, 2013

[Issue Tracker] 542 open issues

by Marcus Denker

There are 542 open issues on the tacker https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/filters/57/All-newest-first âClosed last Weekâ is at 72. Keep in mind that every single issue fixed is valuableâ¦ we fixed the 72 because someone fixed *one*. Marcus

Dec. 14, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow

by GOUBIER Thierry

Stef, how do I load Moose in a 3.0 image? There is no Moose config in the 3.0 meta repository. Thierry ________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] Date d'envoi : vendredi 13 dÃ©cembre 2013 13:47 Ã : Pharo Development List Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow try with Moose. Stef On Dec 12, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com<mailto:yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>> wrote: Pharo10 on SmalltalkHub is humongous. You can definitely do a stress test with it :) Uko On 12 Dec 2013, at 15:43, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: I would need a large project, composed of one or more packages, with more than 150~200 classes, which triggers the slow read and writing times Sebastian experience. And, probably, to be complete, a long and complex commit history in git (> 100 commits). I'll keep in mind the idea of creating one randomly ;) Thierry ________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] de la part de Yuriy Tymchuk [yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com<mailto:yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>] Date d'envoi : jeudi 12 dÃ©cembre 2013 15:37 Ã : Pharo Development List Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow Are you interested in a package or a project? I can provide you information based on size, etcâ¦ Uko On 12 Dec 2013, at 15:30, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: I gave up running gitfiletree on 1.4 :( It's possible to use gitfiletree from a 2.0 or a 3.0 image to browse your git repository, but testing the writing will be an issue. My best chance would be to find a large enough package I can use on 2.0 or 3.0 to test and profile. Does anybody has a large enough package which could fit? Anything that doesn't require a NDA to read it, of course. Is Roassal large enough? Thierry ________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>] Date d'envoi : jeudi 12 dÃ©cembre 2013 12:12 Ã : Pharo Development List Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow gee the big code package is airflowing which I have, quite conservatively, running on #14438 images I load filetree like this: Gofer new url: 'http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/FileTree'; package: 'ConfigurationOfFileTree'; load. ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfFileTree) project version: #'stable') load. and it never complained let me know On Dec 12, 2013, at 3:53 AM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: If you would be ready to profile a package save on your repository, it would be great. In the mean time, I'll make available a special gitfiletree package to test. Which version of Pharo you are using? 2.0 or 3.0? Regards, Thierry ________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>] Date d'envoi : mercredi 11 dÃ©cembre 2013 17:09 Ã : Pharo Development List Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow ok, if saving is dumping all, then 3 is confirmed? After the first commit, I'd say so. about 2, I don't know. I'm available to make tests and measure results have a nice trip, keep us tuned about any progress On Dec 11, 2013, at 2:09 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: Yes, you're right in the general case. But a solution to that general problem will take time to be implemented (time I lack at the moment, sadly) and if the main gain is a few % because it's writing the version file and the metadata for methods which are the "slow" factors, then we'll have worked hard for nothing. If you want to help, I'd really like to see either 2- or 3- confirmed. I can produce a special gitfiletree to remove writing the metadata, that you can try on a large project temporary copy; if the slow writing (and reading) is confirmed, then this is 3- (But I'm leaving on a trip tomorrow early, so I have no idea of when I'll have the time to do that :( ). Thierry Le 11/12/2013 16:44, Sebastian Sastre a Ã©crit : Without entering in details, a cause for slow package write is dumping all every time. For that strategy, we already have the image save which is magically fast. So, if we make something to scan the code and write only when it's different from what's on disk, then we would be preventing tons of redundant writes sebastian <https://about.me/sebastianconcept> o/ On Dec 11, 2013, at 1:43 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: Le 11/12/2013 16:27, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : ah, and IMHO the problem is not about reading... is about writing (if it has to write the metadata each time...). But, personnaly, I don't know if this is the reason for the lack of performance... I have three hypothesis for Sebastian problem: 1 - Slow read time for version metadata - Confirmed because of the 16 seconds wait time for reading the package metadata in the repository browser. 2 - Slow metadata write 3 - Slow package write I have an implemented solution for 1-, a very easy to implement for 2-, and none yet for 3- So I'd really like to check if 3- is confirmed ;) Thierry Esteban On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com<mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com> <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com> <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote: Thierry, I know there is a working version... let me search... (5 mins later) here: https://github.com/rjsargent/CypressReferenceImplementation Dale says Richard made a metadata-less version. We should take a look at that. Esteban On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr><mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: Esteban, Sebastian, In the filetree code, you will find a format without metadata, but it's not in use anymore. If you use gitfiletree, it will write the metadata for compatibility reasons with filetree, but it will never read it back. I'm pushing code to make filetree robust to absence of metadata, but I haven't worked on it for a while. gitfiletree has solved the problem of a slow metadata read. It does not solve any performance problem associated with writing, yet. Thierry Le 11/12/2013 16:12, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : I know there is a version of filetree without metadata (more compelling for projects that will never use other formats). Dale told me that there was a preview somewhere, but I didn't tested yet (lack of time) and now I cannot find the mail... Dale, can you re-send the link? cheers, Esteban On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Sebastian Sastre <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com> <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com> <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com> <mailto:sebastian@__flowingconcept.com <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>>> wrote: I should breath before I type, but you probably already got that I meant /redundant writes/ (not reads)... Anyway.. I was talking with Esteban and he mentions some kind of compatibility metadata. If I'm going to give a leap of faith to filetree repos to save code why should I care about mcz compatibility? Paying a toll for no reason is evil. Maybe we could make that optional so those who don't extract value from that feature can opt-out? sebastian <https://about.me/__sebastianconcept <https://about.me/sebastianconcept>> o/ On Dec 11, 2013, at 12:44 PM, Sebastian Sastre <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com> <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com> <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com> <mailto:sebastian@__flowingconcept.com <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>>> wrote: Hi Thierry On Dec 11, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>__>> wrote: I have packages (in the order of hundreds of classes) and save delays and package click delays are starting to demand patience in a way that doesn't feel like the right path Which operations ? I didn't remember noticing much with 179 classes on a laptop without a SSD. choose one. Just for clicking the package that will should you UUID, version and author I need to wait ~16 seconds. Sounds like a lot of overhead for reading a small .json file. But the write is the most worrisome All that is with a SSD disk, otherwise save delays would be /way/ beyond unacceptable I'd like to know more, and understand the reason, for sure. As far as I know, filetree will rewrite the whole package to disk everytime... and maybe optimising that could be the solution. Well, that explains a lot. Writing all every time is the lazy thing that's okay for a prototype and temporary code in a proof of concept but that massive redundant reads certainly doesn't sounds like pro software. Specially for SSD's which has a limited quantity of writes Thierry sebastian <https://about.me/__sebastianconcept <https://about.me/sebastianconcept>> o/ -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 <tel:%2B33%20%280%29%201%2069%2008%2032%2092> <tel:%2B33%20%280%29%201%2069%__2008%2032%2092> / 83 95 -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 <tel:%2B33%20%280%29%201%2069%2008%2032%2092> / 83 95 -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

Dec. 14, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Another thought about globals

by GOUBIER Thierry

Hi Igor, What about scanning for globals in the code? And just a proper way to declare globals somewhere in a package should be about enough (loading scripts can take care of the initialisation, no?). Or... All globals are classes, or accessed via classes (singleton pattern). Like that you get everything correct (loading order, package ownership, initialization) and you don't have to create new rules, just produce better code. Would you have a counter example to that ? (i.e. a currently existing Global in Pharo which cannot be reimplemented as a class with some state in it?) Thierry ________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de Igor Stasenko [siguctua(a)gmail.com] Date d'envoi : samedi 14 dÃ©cembre 2013 05:41 Ã : Discusses Development of Pharo Objet : [Pharo-dev] Another thought about globals As you may know, smalltalk global dictionary contain all symbols defined globally, so you can access them directly in any piece of code i.e. when you write: Object new it actually means 'send message #new to object, associated with #Object name in globals dictionary. Most of globals are classes, but some of them , like Transcript, World, Display etc are not. And i was always thinking there's something wrong with these globals (actually there's multiple 'wrongs'), but finally, i think i can answer myself, what is most basic wrong with them: they miss any form of declaration. Most of variables in smalltalk require declaration, such as temps, method arguments, instance variables , class variables, pool variables, but not globals. Even classes, from formal point of view do not require declaration, because actually the usual: Object subclass: #Collection instanceVariableNames: '' classVariableNames: 'MutexForPicking RandomForPicking' poolDictionaries: '' category: 'Collections-Abstract' is _definition_ but not declaration: Collection definition => 'Object subclass: #Collection instanceVariableNames: '''' classVariableNames: ''MutexForPicking RandomForPicking'' poolDictionaries: '''' category: ''Collections-Abstract''' in fact, it is just a message sent to 'Object' variable (at some moment in the past) , and there's nothing in language which enforces the rule that evaluating such expression must declare new global, named Collection, except from environment we're working in. The absence of declaration for globals leads to following problems: since declaration point is not defined, all tools (including compiler) assume that given name always been there, and always accessible. Which leads to bootstrap problems. There's no way to determine if given piece of code (which uses some global) will keep functioning properly, once you unload certain package. No way to determine dependencies (and as consequence the order of code loading during bootstrapping). Also, it is hard to determine, to which package certain global belongs. While it is easy to tell for classes since they having category, for globals like Transcript, Display etc, there's no way to tell anything. Piece of cake, you can say: since Display is instance of DisplayScreen class, then such variable must belong to same package as DisplayScreen, right? Wrong! Just for example, imagine i create variable named MyWindowMousePosition, which will contain an instance of Point. Does it means that such variable should belong to same package as Point class? I guess not. So, to sum up, i think we should really think how to introduce a way to declare globals in package-based ecosystem, where each global belongs to certain package, and then since packages form dependency hierarchy, you can easily detect whether you allowed to use certain global in given context or not, to prevent forming dependency loops. But even if we will weaken contract and allow having dependency loops, even in such case declarations can help us to clearly tell which pieces of code will stop functioning properly, if package which declares given variable are not present in system. The last aspect of bootstrapping problem is order of initialization, because declaring variable doesn't means you can use it right away, since it may be not properly initialized yet (otherwise we will be forced to always use lazy initialization pattern). >From this perspective, IMO package should not only have unordered list of classes/symbols it declares/defines, but also contain information in which order they must be initialized while loaded. >From other side, i don't really like introducing too much formalism and rules, and keep them as minimal as possible, following smalltalk spirit. What you think? -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Dec. 14, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow

by GOUBIER Thierry

I used to do FileTree save and then git commands in a Terminal, and missed a few times : - Multiple version saves overwriting each other... because I forgot the git commit - Unability to explore the git history So, when I discussed with Dale, the author of FileTree, I saw the possibility to just add the git commands I needed on top of FileTree... the result is gitfiletree. Performance improvements... I'm wondering. From the profiling data I have, if I make writing 4x faster, I will only make a save 1.04x faster (with gitfiletree and Roassal). If to write less I have to compute a lot, do file reads and compares, md5 hashes, a diff... I'll probably replace a lot of writes by a lot of CPU time in Pharo and maybe be slower overall (not to mention more error prone). Would you be ready to run some profiling code on your set ? I can make a simple test case. I also wonder if writing less could make the git commit faster, in which case it could be valuable. Also, if you want to try gitfiletree and your repository, what you can try is just browse your repository and browse versions of your packages (browse, not load: a browse will load your package code components but not compile the code). (I noticed that the use of git archive makes gitfiletree slower at package read time, but, since this is dwarfed by the Pharo compilation time when loading such large packages, I don't care :)). Thierry ________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com] Date d'envoi : samedi 14 dÃ©cembre 2013 01:54 Ã : Pharo Development List Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow get it. In my workflow I don't do git operations from the image. I do those from the terminal itself in the server and using SourceTree on development As far as I know, the place that has most space for improvement is when filetree does the writes On Dec 13, 2013, at 6:28 PM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: Hi Sebastian, sorry for the missing instructions... Had to board a train :) In fact, it's not an alternative to filetree, instead it is an extension of filetree (and integrated into filetree, but not completely yet: no real configuration support, no windows support). But yes, I should do a blog post somewhere about it :) Meanwhile, in the train, I tested on Roassal and I profiled the writes... Git is slow: on Roassal, Waiting for the git commit : 67% Writing the package to disk : 20% (writing the version file: 0.4%) -> No real cost associated with the metadata -> git is a lot more than I expected. When I remove git (i.e. pure filetree) Making a snapshot of Roassal: 28.9% basic Store version : 67% writeBasicDefinitions : 30% (of which half of it is reordering some stuff, not writing) writeMethodHolderDefinitions: 27,8% Of which writing to disk effectively is 19.7% Conclusion: gitfiletree will look slow because git is slow on such large commits :( And I don't see much gains to be made on the writing (i.e. a format change won't help much), but a lot to loose (code complexity, bugs). Unless a format change may make it faster for git somehow? I'll keep profiling, or give you the code to use to profile yourself ? Thierry ________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>] Date d'envoi : vendredi 13 dÃ©cembre 2013 16:56 Ã : Pharo Development List Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow so you are working on an alternative to filetree I'm pretty sure if you setup a page (or blog post) somewhere with clear and easy instructions to follow many people will try to use it and, if proven good and reliable, adopt it sebastian<https://about.me/sebastianconcept> o/ On Dec 13, 2013, at 12:04 PM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: gitfiletree can be had this way (filetree is already in 3.0, gitfiletree is in the filetree configuration for Pharo 3.0 but is a bit hard to load). pharo/pharo pharo/Pharo.image confighttp://smalltalkhub.com/Pharo/MetaRepoForPharo30/main/ ConfigurationOfOSProcess --install=stable pharo/pharo pharo/Pharo.image eval --save Gofer new url:\'http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/ThierryGoubier/Alt30/main\'\<http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/ThierryGoubier/Alt30/main/'/>; package: \'MonticelloFileTree-Git\'\; load Thierry ________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>] Date d'envoi : vendredi 13 dÃ©cembre 2013 14:57 Ã : Pharo Development List Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow I can try a forced load on a 3.0 ignoring requisites for testing purposes but I'm using this: https://github.com/dalehenrich/filetree I'm not sure what you're are using can you clarify? On Dec 13, 2013, at 11:43 AM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: Ok. I'll try Roassal on a slow netbook to see. I don't see a factor of 10 difference between yours and Roassal, so I'll have a look. Thierry ________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>] Date d'envoi : vendredi 13 dÃ©cembre 2013 14:32 Ã : Pharo Development List Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow A bit. This is from today's current version (and is not all, it's only the two biggest packages): (MCPackage named: 'flow') workingCopy packageInfo classes size. 363. (MCPackage named: 'flow') workingCopy packageInfo coreMethods size. 4585. (MCPackage named: 'airflowing') workingCopy packageInfo classes size. 377. (MCPackage named: 'airflowing') workingCopy packageInfo coreMethods size. 5818. On Dec 13, 2013, at 11:25 AM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: Roassal: 3493 Number of versions in the package history: 733. Size of the version file: 202796. Is that a lot lower than your count? Thierry ________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>] Date d'envoi : vendredi 13 dÃ©cembre 2013 13:34 Ã : Pharo Development List Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow how many coreMethods? On Dec 13, 2013, at 7:00 AM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: Bad news. Roassal package directory has 355 entries (343 classes + a few extensions) and I don't see much of a slow down (on 3.0). It's not instantaneous, but with a bit of feedback, it doesn't seems long. I'll do some profiling. Thierry ________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] de la part de GOUBIER Thierry Date d'envoi : jeudi 12 dÃ©cembre 2013 17:07 Ã : Pharo Development List Objet : [PROVENANCE INTERNET] Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow Thanks for the pointers. I'll look at Seaside/Moose/Mondrian and Roassal, because I need code I can load and save in an image without destroying the very image I use to test (which would happen if I load Pharo10 stuff in a 3.0 image ;) ). Thierry ________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] de la part de Yuriy Tymchuk [yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com<mailto:yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>] Date d'envoi : jeudi 12 dÃ©cembre 2013 16:24 Ã : Pharo Development List Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow So if you want something big and with a lot of commits you can use Pharo* in general. Pharo10 has the most versions and Pharo30Inbox is the largest one. If you want some other projects then you heve to take a look at Seaside30, Mondrian, Moose, Glamour or Roassal. Uko On 12 Dec 2013, at 16:20, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com<mailto:yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>> wrote: Pharo10 on SmalltalkHub is humongous. You can definitely do a stress test with it :) Uko On 12 Dec 2013, at 15:43, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: I would need a large project, composed of one or more packages, with more than 150~200 classes, which triggers the slow read and writing times Sebastian experience. And, probably, to be complete, a long and complex commit history in git (> 100 commits). I'll keep in mind the idea of creating one randomly ;) Thierry ________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] de la part de Yuriy Tymchuk [yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com<mailto:yuriy.tymchuk@me.com>] Date d'envoi : jeudi 12 dÃ©cembre 2013 15:37 Ã : Pharo Development List Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow Are you interested in a package or a project? I can provide you information based on size, etcâ¦ Uko On 12 Dec 2013, at 15:30, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: I gave up running gitfiletree on 1.4 :( It's possible to use gitfiletree from a 2.0 or a 3.0 image to browse your git repository, but testing the writing will be an issue. My best chance would be to find a large enough package I can use on 2.0 or 3.0 to test and profile. Does anybody has a large enough package which could fit? Anything that doesn't require a NDA to read it, of course. Is Roassal large enough? Thierry ________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>] Date d'envoi : jeudi 12 dÃ©cembre 2013 12:12 Ã : Pharo Development List Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow gee the big code package is airflowing which I have, quite conservatively, running on #14438 images I load filetree like this: Gofer new url: 'http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/FileTree'; package: 'ConfigurationOfFileTree'; load. ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfFileTree) project version: #'stable') load. and it never complained let me know On Dec 12, 2013, at 3:53 AM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: If you would be ready to profile a package save on your repository, it would be great. In the mean time, I'll make available a special gitfiletree package to test. Which version of Pharo you are using? 2.0 or 3.0? Regards, Thierry ________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>] Date d'envoi : mercredi 11 dÃ©cembre 2013 17:09 Ã : Pharo Development List Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow ok, if saving is dumping all, then 3 is confirmed? After the first commit, I'd say so. about 2, I don't know. I'm available to make tests and measure results have a nice trip, keep us tuned about any progress On Dec 11, 2013, at 2:09 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: Yes, you're right in the general case. But a solution to that general problem will take time to be implemented (time I lack at the moment, sadly) and if the main gain is a few % because it's writing the version file and the metadata for methods which are the "slow" factors, then we'll have worked hard for nothing. If you want to help, I'd really like to see either 2- or 3- confirmed. I can produce a special gitfiletree to remove writing the metadata, that you can try on a large project temporary copy; if the slow writing (and reading) is confirmed, then this is 3- (But I'm leaving on a trip tomorrow early, so I have no idea of when I'll have the time to do that :( ). Thierry Le 11/12/2013 16:44, Sebastian Sastre a Ã©crit : Without entering in details, a cause for slow package write is dumping all every time. For that strategy, we already have the image save which is magically fast. So, if we make something to scan the code and write only when it's different from what's on disk, then we would be preventing tons of redundant writes sebastian <https://about.me/sebastianconcept> o/ On Dec 11, 2013, at 1:43 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: Le 11/12/2013 16:27, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : ah, and IMHO the problem is not about reading... is about writing (if it has to write the metadata each time...). But, personnaly, I don't know if this is the reason for the lack of performance... I have three hypothesis for Sebastian problem: 1 - Slow read time for version metadata - Confirmed because of the 16 seconds wait time for reading the package metadata in the repository browser. 2 - Slow metadata write 3 - Slow package write I have an implemented solution for 1-, a very easy to implement for 2-, and none yet for 3- So I'd really like to check if 3- is confirmed ;) Thierry Esteban On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com<mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com> <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com> <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote: Thierry, I know there is a working version... let me search... (5 mins later) here: https://github.com/rjsargent/CypressReferenceImplementation Dale says Richard made a metadata-less version. We should take a look at that. Esteban On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr><mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: Esteban, Sebastian, In the filetree code, you will find a format without metadata, but it's not in use anymore. If you use gitfiletree, it will write the metadata for compatibility reasons with filetree, but it will never read it back. I'm pushing code to make filetree robust to absence of metadata, but I haven't worked on it for a while. gitfiletree has solved the problem of a slow metadata read. It does not solve any performance problem associated with writing, yet. Thierry Le 11/12/2013 16:12, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : I know there is a version of filetree without metadata (more compelling for projects that will never use other formats). Dale told me that there was a preview somewhere, but I didn't tested yet (lack of time) and now I cannot find the mail... Dale, can you re-send the link? cheers, Esteban On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Sebastian Sastre <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com> <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com> <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com> <mailto:sebastian@__flowingconcept.com <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>>> wrote: I should breath before I type, but you probably already got that I meant /redundant writes/ (not reads)... Anyway.. I was talking with Esteban and he mentions some kind of compatibility metadata. If I'm going to give a leap of faith to filetree repos to save code why should I care about mcz compatibility? Paying a toll for no reason is evil. Maybe we could make that optional so those who don't extract value from that feature can opt-out? sebastian <https://about.me/__sebastianconcept <https://about.me/sebastianconcept>> o/ On Dec 11, 2013, at 12:44 PM, Sebastian Sastre <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com<mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com> <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com> <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com> <mailto:sebastian@__flowingconcept.com <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>>> wrote: Hi Thierry On Dec 11, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>__>> wrote: I have packages (in the order of hundreds of classes) and save delays and package click delays are starting to demand patience in a way that doesn't feel like the right path Which operations ? I didn't remember noticing much with 179 classes on a laptop without a SSD. choose one. Just for clicking the package that will should you UUID, version and author I need to wait ~16 seconds. Sounds like a lot of overhead for reading a small .json file. But the write is the most worrisome All that is with a SSD disk, otherwise save delays would be /way/ beyond unacceptable I'd like to know more, and understand the reason, for sure. As far as I know, filetree will rewrite the whole package to disk everytime... and maybe optimising that could be the solution. Well, that explains a lot. Writing all every time is the lazy thing that's okay for a prototype and temporary code in a proof of concept but that massive redundant reads certainly doesn't sounds like pro software. Specially for SSD's which has a limited quantity of writes Thierry sebastian <https://about.me/__sebastianconcept <https://about.me/sebastianconcept>> o/ -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 <tel:%2B33%20%280%29%201%2069%2008%2032%2092> <tel:%2B33%20%280%29%201%2069%__2008%2032%2092> / 83 95 -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 <tel:%2B33%20%280%29%201%2069%2008%2032%2092> / 83 95 -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

Dec. 14, 2013

Another thought about globals

by Igor Stasenko

As you may know, smalltalk global dictionary contain all symbols defined globally, so you can access them directly in any piece of code i.e. when you write: Object new it actually means 'send message #new to object, associated with #Object name in globals dictionary. Most of globals are classes, but some of them , like Transcript, World, Display etc are not. And i was always thinking there's something wrong with these globals (actually there's multiple 'wrongs'), but finally, i think i can answer myself, what is most basic wrong with them: they miss any form of declaration. Most of variables in smalltalk require declaration, such as temps, method arguments, instance variables , class variables, pool variables, but not globals. Even classes, from formal point of view do not require declaration, because actually the usual: Object subclass: #Collection instanceVariableNames: '' classVariableNames: 'MutexForPicking RandomForPicking' poolDictionaries: '' category: 'Collections-Abstract' is _definition_ but not declaration: Collection definition => 'Object subclass: #Collection instanceVariableNames: '''' classVariableNames: ''MutexForPicking RandomForPicking'' poolDictionaries: '''' category: ''Collections-Abstract''' in fact, it is just a message sent to 'Object' variable (at some moment in the past) , and there's nothing in language which enforces the rule that evaluating such expression must declare new global, named Collection, except from environment we're working in. The absence of declaration for globals leads to following problems: since declaration point is not defined, all tools (including compiler) assume that given name always been there, and always accessible. Which leads to bootstrap problems. There's no way to determine if given piece of code (which uses some global) will keep functioning properly, once you unload certain package. No way to determine dependencies (and as consequence the order of code loading during bootstrapping). Also, it is hard to determine, to which package certain global belongs. While it is easy to tell for classes since they having category, for globals like Transcript, Display etc, there's no way to tell anything. Piece of cake, you can say: since Display is instance of DisplayScreen class, then such variable must belong to same package as DisplayScreen, right? Wrong! Just for example, imagine i create variable named MyWindowMousePosition, which will contain an instance of Point. Does it means that such variable should belong to same package as Point class? I guess not. So, to sum up, i think we should really think how to introduce a way to declare globals in package-based ecosystem, where each global belongs to certain package, and then since packages form dependency hierarchy, you can easily detect whether you allowed to use certain global in given context or not, to prevent forming dependency loops. But even if we will weaken contract and allow having dependency loops, even in such case declarations can help us to clearly tell which pieces of code will stop functioning properly, if package which declares given variable are not present in system. The last aspect of bootstrapping problem is order of initialization, because declaring variable doesn't means you can use it right away, since it may be not properly initialized yet (otherwise we will be forced to always use lazy initialization pattern). >From this perspective, IMO package should not only have unordered list of classes/symbols it declares/defines, but also contain information in which order they must be initialized while loaded. >From other side, i don't really like introducing too much formalism and rules, and keep them as minimal as possible, following smalltalk spirit. What you think? -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Dec. 14, 2013

Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow

by Sebastian Sastre

get it. In my workflow I don't do git operations from the image. I do those from the terminal itself in the server and using SourceTree on development As far as I know, the place that has most space for improvement is when filetree does the writes On Dec 13, 2013, at 6:28 PM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: > Hi Sebastian, > > sorry for the missing instructions... Had to board a train :) > > In fact, it's not an alternative to filetree, instead it is an extension of filetree (and integrated into filetree, but not completely yet: no real configuration support, no windows support). > > But yes, I should do a blog post somewhere about it :) > > Meanwhile, in the train, I tested on Roassal and I profiled the writes... > > Git is slow: on Roassal, > Waiting for the git commit : 67% > Writing the package to disk : 20% (writing the version file: 0.4%) > -> No real cost associated with the metadata > -> git is a lot more than I expected. > When I remove git (i.e. pure filetree) > Making a snapshot of Roassal: 28.9% > basic Store version : 67% > writeBasicDefinitions : 30% (of which half of it is reordering some stuff, not writing) > writeMethodHolderDefinitions: 27,8% > Of which writing to disk effectively is 19.7% > > Conclusion: gitfiletree will look slow because git is slow on such large commits :( And I don't see much gains to be made on the writing (i.e. a format change won't help much), but a lot to loose (code complexity, bugs). Unless a format change may make it faster for git somehow? > > I'll keep profiling, or give you the code to use to profile yourself ? > > Thierry > De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com] > Date d'envoi : vendredi 13 dÃ©cembre 2013 16:56 > Ã : Pharo Development List > Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow > > so you are working on an alternative to filetree > > I'm pretty sure if you setup a page (or blog post) somewhere with clear and easy instructions to follow many people will try to use it > > and, if proven good and reliable, adopt it > > > sebastian > > o/ > > > > > > On Dec 13, 2013, at 12:04 PM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: > >> gitfiletree can be had this way (filetree is already in 3.0, gitfiletree is in the filetree configuration for Pharo 3.0 but is a bit hard to load). >> >> pharo/pharo pharo/Pharo.image confighttp://smalltalkhub.com/Pharo/MetaRepoForPharo30/main/ ConfigurationOfOSProcess --install=stable >> pharo/pharo pharo/Pharo.image eval --save Gofer new url:\'http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/ThierryGoubier/Alt30/main\'\; package: \'MonticelloFileTree-Git\'\; load >> >> Thierry >> >> De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com] >> Date d'envoi : vendredi 13 dÃ©cembre 2013 14:57 >> Ã : Pharo Development List >> Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow >> >> I can try a forced load on a 3.0 ignoring requisites for testing purposes >> >> but I'm using this: >> https://github.com/dalehenrich/filetree >> >> I'm not sure what you're are using >> >> can you clarify? >> >> >> >> On Dec 13, 2013, at 11:43 AM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: >> >>> Ok. I'll try Roassal on a slow netbook to see. I don't see a factor of 10 difference between yours and Roassal, so I'll have a look. >>> >>> Thierry >>> De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com] >>> Date d'envoi : vendredi 13 dÃ©cembre 2013 14:32 >>> Ã : Pharo Development List >>> Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow >>> >>> A bit. >>> >>> This is from today's current version (and is not all, it's only the two biggest packages): >>> >>> (MCPackage named: 'flow') workingCopy packageInfo classes size. 363. >>> (MCPackage named: 'flow') workingCopy packageInfo coreMethods size. 4585. >>> >>> (MCPackage named: 'airflowing') workingCopy packageInfo classes size. 377. >>> (MCPackage named: 'airflowing') workingCopy packageInfo coreMethods size. 5818. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Dec 13, 2013, at 11:25 AM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: >>> >>>> Roassal: 3493 >>>> >>>> Number of versions in the package history: 733. Size of the version file: 202796. >>>> >>>> Is that a lot lower than your count? >>>> >>>> Thierry >>>> >>>> De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com] >>>> Date d'envoi : vendredi 13 dÃ©cembre 2013 13:34 >>>> Ã : Pharo Development List >>>> Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow >>>> >>>> how many coreMethods? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Dec 13, 2013, at 7:00 AM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Bad news. Roassal package directory has 355 entries (343 classes + a few extensions) and I don't see much of a slow down (on 3.0). It's not instantaneous, but with a bit of feedback, it doesn't seems long. >>>>> >>>>> I'll do some profiling. >>>>> >>>>> Thierry >>>>> De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de GOUBIER Thierry >>>>> Date d'envoi : jeudi 12 dÃ©cembre 2013 17:07 >>>>> Ã : Pharo Development List >>>>> Objet : [PROVENANCE INTERNET] Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the pointers. >>>>> >>>>> I'll look at Seaside/Moose/Mondrian and Roassal, because I need code I can load and save in an image without destroying the very image I use to test (which would happen if I load Pharo10 stuff in a 3.0 image ;) ). >>>>> >>>>> Thierry >>>>> >>>>> De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de Yuriy Tymchuk [yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com] >>>>> Date d'envoi : jeudi 12 dÃ©cembre 2013 16:24 >>>>> Ã : Pharo Development List >>>>> Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow >>>>> >>>>> So if you want something big and with a lot of commits you can use Pharo* in general. Pharo10 has the most versions and Pharo30Inbox is the largest one. If you want some other projects then you heve to take a look at Seaside30, Mondrian, Moose, Glamour or Roassal. >>>>> >>>>> Uko >>>>> >>>>> On 12 Dec 2013, at 16:20, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Pharo10 on SmalltalkHub is humongous. You can definitely do a stress test with it :) >>>>>> >>>>>> Uko >>>>>> >>>>>> On 12 Dec 2013, at 15:43, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I would need a large project, composed of one or more packages, with more than 150~200 classes, which triggers the slow read and writing times Sebastian experience. And, probably, to be complete, a long and complex commit history in git (> 100 commits). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'll keep in mind the idea of creating one randomly ;) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thierry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de Yuriy Tymchuk [yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com] >>>>>>> Date d'envoi : jeudi 12 dÃ©cembre 2013 15:37 >>>>>>> Ã : Pharo Development List >>>>>>> Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Are you interested in a package or a project? I can provide you information based on size, etcâ¦ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Uko >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12 Dec 2013, at 15:30, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I gave up running gitfiletree on 1.4 :( >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's possible to use gitfiletree from a 2.0 or a 3.0 image to browse your git repository, but testing the writing will be an issue. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My best chance would be to find a large enough package I can use on 2.0 or 3.0 to test and profile. Does anybody has a large enough package which could fit? Anything that doesn't require a NDA to read it, of course. Is Roassal large enough? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thierry >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com] >>>>>>>> Date d'envoi : jeudi 12 dÃ©cembre 2013 12:12 >>>>>>>> Ã : Pharo Development List >>>>>>>> Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> gee the big code package is airflowing which I have, quite conservatively, running on #14438 images >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I load filetree like this: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gofer new >>>>>>>> url: 'http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/FileTree'; >>>>>>>> package: 'ConfigurationOfFileTree'; >>>>>>>> load. >>>>>>>> ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfFileTree) project version: #'stable') load. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and it never complained >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> let me know >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 12, 2013, at 3:53 AM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you would be ready to profile a package save on your repository, it would be great. In the mean time, I'll make available a special gitfiletree package to test. Which version of Pharo you are using? 2.0 or 3.0? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thierry >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de Sebastian Sastre [sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com] >>>>>>>>> Date d'envoi : mercredi 11 dÃ©cembre 2013 17:09 >>>>>>>>> Ã : Pharo Development List >>>>>>>>> Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] Tell me about your workflow >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ok, if saving is dumping all, then 3 is confirmed? After the first commit, I'd say so. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> about 2, I don't know. I'm available to make tests and measure results >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> have a nice trip, keep us tuned about any progress >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Dec 11, 2013, at 2:09 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes, you're right in the general case. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But a solution to that general problem will take time to be implemented (time I lack at the moment, sadly) and if the main gain is a few % because it's writing the version file and the metadata for methods which are the "slow" factors, then we'll have worked hard for nothing. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If you want to help, I'd really like to see either 2- or 3- confirmed. I can produce a special gitfiletree to remove writing the metadata, that you can try on a large project temporary copy; if the slow writing (and reading) is confirmed, then this is 3- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (But I'm leaving on a trip tomorrow early, so I have no idea of when I'll have the time to do that :( ). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thierry >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Le 11/12/2013 16:44, Sebastian Sastre a Ã©crit : >>>>>>>>>>> Without entering in details, a cause for slow package write is dumping >>>>>>>>>>> all every time. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> For that strategy, we already have the image save which is magically fast. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So, if we make something to scan the code and write only when it's >>>>>>>>>>> different from what's on disk, then we would be preventing tons of >>>>>>>>>>> redundant writes >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> sebastian <https://about.me/sebastianconcept> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> o/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 11, 2013, at 1:43 PM, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr >>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Le 11/12/2013 16:27, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : >>>>>>>>>>>>> ah, and IMHO the problem is not about reading... is about writing (if it >>>>>>>>>>>>> has to write the metadata each time...). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> But, personnaly, I don't know if this is the reason for the lack of >>>>>>>>>>>> performance... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I have three hypothesis for Sebastian problem: >>>>>>>>>>>> 1 - Slow read time for version metadata >>>>>>>>>>>> - Confirmed because of the 16 seconds wait time for reading the >>>>>>>>>>>> package metadata in the repository browser. >>>>>>>>>>>> 2 - Slow metadata write >>>>>>>>>>>> 3 - Slow package write >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I have an implemented solution for 1-, a very easy to implement for >>>>>>>>>>>> 2-, and none yet for 3- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So I'd really like to check if 3- is confirmed ;) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thierry >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Esteban >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Esteban Lorenzano >>>>>>>>>>>>> <estebanlm(a)gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thierry, I know there is a working version... let me search... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> (5 mins later) >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> here: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/rjsargent/CypressReferenceImplementation >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dale says Richard made a metadata-less version. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We should take a look at that. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Esteban >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Goubier Thierry >>>>>>>>>>>>> <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr><mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Esteban, Sebastian, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In the filetree code, you will find a format without metadata, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but it's not in use anymore. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If you use gitfiletree, it will write the metadata for >>>>>>>>>>>>> compatibility reasons with filetree, but it will never read it >>>>>>>>>>>>> back. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm pushing code to make filetree robust to absence of metadata, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but I haven't worked on it for a while. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> gitfiletree has solved the problem of a slow metadata read. It >>>>>>>>>>>>> does not solve any performance problem associated with >>>>>>>>>>>>> writing, yet. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thierry >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Le 11/12/2013 16:12, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I know there is a version of filetree without metadata (more >>>>>>>>>>>>> compelling >>>>>>>>>>>>> for projects that will never use other formats). >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dale told me that there was a preview somewhere, but I >>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't tested yet >>>>>>>>>>>>> (lack of time) and now I cannot find the mail... >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dale, can you re-send the link? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Esteban >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Sebastian Sastre >>>>>>>>>>>>> <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:sebastian@__flowingconcept.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I should breath before I type, but you probably already >>>>>>>>>>>>> got that I >>>>>>>>>>>>> meant /redundant writes/ (not reads)... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway.. I was talking with Esteban and he mentions >>>>>>>>>>>>> some kind of >>>>>>>>>>>>> compatibility metadata. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If I'm going to give a leap of faith to filetree repos >>>>>>>>>>>>> to save code >>>>>>>>>>>>> why should I care about mcz compatibility? Paying a >>>>>>>>>>>>> toll for no >>>>>>>>>>>>> reason is evil. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we could make that optional so those who don't >>>>>>>>>>>>> extract value >>>>>>>>>>>>> from that feature can opt-out? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> sebastian <https://about.me/__sebastianconcept >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://about.me/sebastianconcept>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> o/ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 11, 2013, at 12:44 PM, Sebastian Sastre >>>>>>>>>>>>> <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:sebastian@__flowingconcept.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Thierry >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 11, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Goubier Thierry >>>>>>>>>>>>> <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr >>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>__>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I have packages (in the order of hundreds >>>>>>>>>>>>> of classes) and save >>>>>>>>>>>>> delays >>>>>>>>>>>>> and package click delays are starting to >>>>>>>>>>>>> demand patience in a >>>>>>>>>>>>> way that >>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't feel like the right path >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Which operations ? I didn't remember noticing >>>>>>>>>>>>> much with 179 >>>>>>>>>>>>> classes on a laptop without a SSD. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> choose one. Just for clicking the package that will >>>>>>>>>>>>> should you >>>>>>>>>>>>> UUID, version and author I need to wait ~16 >>>>>>>>>>>>> seconds. Sounds like a >>>>>>>>>>>>> lot of overhead for reading a small .json file. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> But the write is the most worrisome >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> All that is with a SSD disk, otherwise save >>>>>>>>>>>>> delays would be >>>>>>>>>>>>> /way/ beyond >>>>>>>>>>>>> unacceptable >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to know more, and understand the >>>>>>>>>>>>> reason, for sure. As >>>>>>>>>>>>> far as I know, filetree will rewrite the whole >>>>>>>>>>>>> package to disk >>>>>>>>>>>>> everytime... and maybe optimising that could be >>>>>>>>>>>>> the solution. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, that explains a lot. Writing all every time >>>>>>>>>>>>> is the lazy >>>>>>>>>>>>> thing that's okay for a prototype and temporary >>>>>>>>>>>>> code in a proof of >>>>>>>>>>>>> concept but that massive redundant reads certainly >>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't sounds >>>>>>>>>>>>> like pro software. Specially for SSD's which has a >>>>>>>>>>>>> limited >>>>>>>>>>>>> quantity of writes >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thierry >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> sebastian >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://about.me/__sebastianconcept >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://about.me/sebastianconcept>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> o/ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thierry Goubier >>>>>>>>>>>>> CEA list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps >>>>>>>>>>>>> RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s >>>>>>>>>>>>> 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex >>>>>>>>>>>>> France >>>>>>>>>>>>> Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 >>>>>>>>>>>>> <tel:%2B33%20%280%29%201%2069%2008%2032%2092> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <tel:%2B33%20%280%29%201%2069%__2008%2032%2092> >>>>>>>>>>>>> / 83 95 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thierry Goubier >>>>>>>>>>>>> CEA list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s >>>>>>>>>>>>> 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex >>>>>>>>>>>>> France >>>>>>>>>>>>> Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 >>>>>>>>>>>>> <tel:%2B33%20%280%29%201%2069%2008%2032%2092> / 83 95 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Thierry Goubier >>>>>>>>>>>> CEA list >>>>>>>>>>>> Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s >>>>>>>>>>>> 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex >>>>>>>>>>>> France >>>>>>>>>>>> Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Thierry Goubier >>>>>>>>>> CEA list >>>>>>>>>> Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s >>>>>>>>>> 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex >>>>>>>>>> France >>>>>>>>>> Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

Dec. 14, 2013