- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Why Smalltalk is not popular?

by J.F. Rick

Well, there are some serious reasons that Smalltalk is not currently so popular. Here are a few: (1) It used to be expensive. That kept it from being adopted initially. That may no longer be the case but, once the reputation is ruined, it is hard for people to give it a second chance. (2) There is no natural bias built in. Want to program in the browser? Learn Javascript. Want to program on the server? Learn PHP. Want to take the AP CS exam in the US? Learn Java. Want to program for MacOS / iOS? Learn Objective C. Want to use the Microsoft Developer Suite? Learn C#. Want to bind to the largest set of libraries? Learn C. There is no killer application domain for Smalltalk. (3) The syntax is significantly different than languages people are familiar with. In addition, the IDE is quite different. So, transitioning is difficult. (4) There's a Catch-22. People who want to employ Smalltalk programmers can't find any, so they switch to some language they can find (e.g., Java). Then, nobody bothers to learn Smalltalk because they perceive as no demand. I think there's a real possibility that Pharo can overcome these obstacles in a meaningful way. The web technologies part is so strong already that it could easily be the next Ruby on Rails (i.e., comes out of nowhere to gain real market share by doing one thing really well). The simplicity and live coding ability could also make it a very nice teaching language, but significant work will need to be done to make it that. Cheers, Jeff On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 5:14 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > frankly I find the community here, extremely friendly , well motivated, > reasonable and humble. And I dont let a couple of incidents per year change > my mind of what happens here on a daily basis. > > Smalltalk is unpopular because it never had a big company behind it or a > good marketing strategy. 99% of people out there, had, have and will have > no clue what smalltalk is all about. > > You want to talk about ObjC ? fine . Lets be honest , objc was like 42th > most popular language in TIOBE and now is like 3rd. Why ? because iOS. > Thats all, not because of quality of the language , not because it has > super friendly community , not because users saw the light. > > The only thing that ObjC shares with smalltalk is message passing. Does > that make ObjC part of the family , eh , no. Unless you are prepared to let > tons other languages and IDEs join you, but then you still wont have a > family but a nation. And ObjC is a seriously ugly language. Its still no > C++ , Javascript , Perl or PHP, but its ugly. Smalltalk is gorgeous. > > Also dont put too much emphasis on popularity. Java library is super > popular and many of its libraries are a big pile of mess. Its quantity vs > quality. C++ is on the same boat. Popularity gives you mainly quantity. > > My advice is don't be humble, be proud of your work and what you have > accomplished with Pharo and your individual project. And if sometimes > things go south , remember its much better to be passionate than being > dull. Its all part of being human. Keep an open mind, and keep walking , > one step at a time. > > > On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 5:40 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu>wrote: > >> >> On 12 Feb 2014, at 14:54, askoh <askoh(a)askoh.com> wrote: >> >> > The recent arguments in Smalltalk made me have an Eureka moment on why >> > Smalltalk is not popular. Smalltalk attracts brilliant people. But these >> > brilliant people scare others away. Instead of Showing How, they Show >> Off. >> > Instead of being inclusive, they are picky. Instead of discussing, they >> > fight. >> > >> > So, Smalltalkers, please be humble, friendly and pacific. Show How. >> Invite >> > anyone interested to join. And let's talk normally. >> >> I agree, of course. (With the second paragraph, less with the first: >> these discussion happen everywhere, ever read emails by Linus Torvalds ?) >> >> -- >> >> But I had an epiphany today, based on this discussion of what is the >> definition of Smalltalk. I hereby declare that we are the _third_ most >> popular language (family) in use today ! >> >> Based on this very reputable (ahem) index: >> >> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html >> >> I really think that in a broad definition of Smalltalk, Objective-C is >> part of the family. >> >> According to the first line of >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective-C >> >> Objective-C is a general-purpose, object-oriented programming language >> that adds Smalltalk-style messaging to the C programming language. >> >> And messaging is at the core of Smalltalk. It also has a similar class >> based object model, is late bound in almost everything and has some >> reflective capabilities. There are even a couple of projects mixing the two >> explicitly. >> >> Reserve a bigger venue for the next ESUG ! >> >> Sven >> >> PS: We've had these discussions before on various occasions: it is really >> hard to come up with a definition of what is Smalltalk, or even a good list >> of what is so special about it - there really is a elusive, hard to define >> aspect to it. >> >> > All the best, >> > Aik-Siong Koh >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > View this message in context: >> http://forum.world.st/Why-Smalltalk-is-not-popular-tp4743009.html >> > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >> Nabble.com. >> > >> >> >> > -- Jochen "Jeff" Rick, Ph.D. http://www.je77.com/ Skype ID: jochenrick

Feb. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Unethical behaviour on GSoC 2010 (was The truth on GSOC, ESUG and bad attitude)

by btc＠openinworld.com

Janko, Thank you for sharing the details of your concern. It is better to deal with facts rather than hints and allusions, since the former is something the defendant and community can respond to and the latter can conjure the worst imagination and polarise both defendant and community. I can understand your need for hinting since it can be difficult to call out a leader in the community, and perhaps is why you've shouldered this burden since 2010. Unfortunately such burdens can sour our perspective on matters. As a reasonably independent observer (in Australia doing Smalltalk just 2 years by myself) looking at the facts you've presented, this seems to me more to a difference of opinion and perspective than a violation of ethics. Certainly your perspective as a GSoC Admin will be different from me observing from the outside, but I think that StÃ©phane as a representative of ESUG has some right to specify parameters for a project like GSoC running under their name. It just would have been better this was done more transparently/publicly, and also that the project parameters are publicly defined up front before the project begins, but then life doesn't always happen like the ideal - there always ends up gray areas that were not previously considered. I hope that having shared these details, even if community sentiment did not go the way you assumed, there is some sense of a burden has lifted. I particularly appreciate that you've stepped back from the GSoC Admin role you obviously care a lot about, to allow the project to proceed with someone outside the conflict. Personally I would be glad to see you involved again at a later time, though some bridge building may be needed. Stef, I hope that after some time, even though this was damaging to you, you might consider there were some honorable intentions that drove Janko's motivations over the last three years, even if these were poorly communicated. My kind regards to you both, -ben Janko MivÅ¡ek wrote: > Time therefore to expose that sad story from GSoC 2010. So that the > community can judge by themselves if my claims are insults or real. > > For the start, this was not a money matter but meddling into project > selection process. > > Here is the story: > > On GSoC 2010 Gilad Bracha proposed a Newspeak/Smalltalk Import/Export > Tool project idea [1]. After the idea was put on ideas list [2], > StÃ©phane Ducasse ordered my co-admin to remove Gilad's idea from the > list. Co-admin told that to me. I was shocked that someone can come to > such an idea to remove something even in the idea phase from the GSoC. > Of course I rejected such an order immediately. > > Even more, co-admin was at that time just starting the postgraduade > study under the Mr.Ducasse mentorship. You can imagine how he felt, like > between two fires. It is reasonable therefore to suspect that Mr.Duccase > uses his power as a mentor over postgraduate student to try to achieve > his goal. > > What was the motivation of Mr.Ducasse to made such a blatant act was not > quite clear to me. And is also not important. Important is that such > removal attempts are totally unacceptable. Only GSoC mentors have that > right by reviewing and voting on the projects to be finally selected for > stipendiums. > > In any case, this incident was a start of my thinking and working on > GSoC to be as transparent, neutral and independent as possible. > > Best regards > Janko > > [1] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/projects/newspeak-tool > [2] http://gsoc2010.esug.org/ideas >

Feb. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Why Smalltalk is not popular?

by Torsten Bergmann

Regarding TIOBE and popularity: http://astares.blogspot.de/2006/07/stupid-metrics.html

Feb. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Why Smalltalk is not popular?

by kilon alios

frankly I find the community here, extremely friendly , well motivated, reasonable and humble. And I dont let a couple of incidents per year change my mind of what happens here on a daily basis. Smalltalk is unpopular because it never had a big company behind it or a good marketing strategy. 99% of people out there, had, have and will have no clue what smalltalk is all about. You want to talk about ObjC ? fine . Lets be honest , objc was like 42th most popular language in TIOBE and now is like 3rd. Why ? because iOS. Thats all, not because of quality of the language , not because it has super friendly community , not because users saw the light. The only thing that ObjC shares with smalltalk is message passing. Does that make ObjC part of the family , eh , no. Unless you are prepared to let tons other languages and IDEs join you, but then you still wont have a family but a nation. And ObjC is a seriously ugly language. Its still no C++ , Javascript , Perl or PHP, but its ugly. Smalltalk is gorgeous. Also dont put too much emphasis on popularity. Java library is super popular and many of its libraries are a big pile of mess. Its quantity vs quality. C++ is on the same boat. Popularity gives you mainly quantity. My advice is don't be humble, be proud of your work and what you have accomplished with Pharo and your individual project. And if sometimes things go south , remember its much better to be passionate than being dull. Its all part of being human. Keep an open mind, and keep walking , one step at a time. On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 5:40 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > On 12 Feb 2014, at 14:54, askoh <askoh(a)askoh.com> wrote: > > > The recent arguments in Smalltalk made me have an Eureka moment on why > > Smalltalk is not popular. Smalltalk attracts brilliant people. But these > > brilliant people scare others away. Instead of Showing How, they Show > Off. > > Instead of being inclusive, they are picky. Instead of discussing, they > > fight. > > > > So, Smalltalkers, please be humble, friendly and pacific. Show How. > Invite > > anyone interested to join. And let's talk normally. > > I agree, of course. (With the second paragraph, less with the first: these > discussion happen everywhere, ever read emails by Linus Torvalds ?) > > -- > > But I had an epiphany today, based on this discussion of what is the > definition of Smalltalk. I hereby declare that we are the _third_ most > popular language (family) in use today ! > > Based on this very reputable (ahem) index: > > http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html > > I really think that in a broad definition of Smalltalk, Objective-C is > part of the family. > > According to the first line of > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective-C > > Objective-C is a general-purpose, object-oriented programming language > that adds Smalltalk-style messaging to the C programming language. > > And messaging is at the core of Smalltalk. It also has a similar class > based object model, is late bound in almost everything and has some > reflective capabilities. There are even a couple of projects mixing the two > explicitly. > > Reserve a bigger venue for the next ESUG ! > > Sven > > PS: We've had these discussions before on various occasions: it is really > hard to come up with a definition of what is Smalltalk, or even a good list > of what is so special about it - there really is a elusive, hard to define > aspect to it. > > > All the best, > > Aik-Siong Koh > > > > > > > > -- > > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Why-Smalltalk-is-not-popular-tp4743009.html > > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > > > > >

Feb. 12, 2014

R: Why Smalltalk is not popular?

by Lorenzo Schiavina

+1 -----Messaggio originale----- Da: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di askoh Inviato: mercoledÃ¬ 12 febbraio 2014 14:55 A: pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org Oggetto: [Pharo-dev] Why Smalltalk is not popular? The recent arguments in Smalltalk made me have an Eureka moment on why Smalltalk is not popular. Smalltalk attracts brilliant people. But these brilliant people scare others away. Instead of Showing How, they Show Off. Instead of being inclusive, they are picky. Instead of discussing, they fight. So, Smalltalkers, please be humble, friendly and pacific. Show How. Invite anyone interested to join. And let's talk normally. All the best, Aik-Siong Koh -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Why-Smalltalk-is-not-popular-tp4743009.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Feb. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Why Smalltalk is not popular?

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 12 Feb 2014, at 14:54, askoh <askoh(a)askoh.com> wrote: > The recent arguments in Smalltalk made me have an Eureka moment on why > Smalltalk is not popular. Smalltalk attracts brilliant people. But these > brilliant people scare others away. Instead of Showing How, they Show Off. > Instead of being inclusive, they are picky. Instead of discussing, they > fight. > > So, Smalltalkers, please be humble, friendly and pacific. Show How. Invite > anyone interested to join. And let's talk normally. I agree, of course. (With the second paragraph, less with the first: these discussion happen everywhere, ever read emails by Linus Torvalds ?) -- But I had an epiphany today, based on this discussion of what is the definition of Smalltalk. I hereby declare that we are the _third_ most popular language (family) in use today ! Based on this very reputable (ahem) index: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html I really think that in a broad definition of Smalltalk, Objective-C is part of the family. According to the first line of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective-C Objective-C is a general-purpose, object-oriented programming language that adds Smalltalk-style messaging to the C programming language. And messaging is at the core of Smalltalk. It also has a similar class based object model, is late bound in almost everything and has some reflective capabilities. There are even a couple of projects mixing the two explicitly. Reserve a bigger venue for the next ESUG ! Sven PS: We've had these discussions before on various occasions: it is really hard to come up with a definition of what is Smalltalk, or even a good list of what is so special about it - there really is a elusive, hard to define aspect to it. > All the best, > Aik-Siong Koh > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Why-Smalltalk-is-not-popular-tp4743009.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

Feb. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Playing an mp3

by Noury Bouraqadi

Thanks Jannik! @Sean why did you chose to use FMOD and not use the PharoExtras/Sound? What are features that you are missing? Noury On 11 fÃ©vr. 2014, at 16:07, jannik laval wrote: > Ok the description is not good. > In phratch, I can load MP3. > > Jannik > > > 2014-02-11 15:30 GMT+01:00 Noury Bouraqadi <bouraqadi(a)gmail.com>: > Thanks Sean. > Sounds cool. > > Noury > On 11 fÃ©vr. 2014, at 14:44, Sean P. DeNigris wrote: > > > For mp3s, I started wrapping the FMOD library with NB. It's on sthub. I > > ported enough to play an mp3 and porting other features should be > > straightforward at this point... HTH > > > > > > > > ----- > > Cheers, > > Sean > > -- > > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Playing-an-mp3-tp4742737p4742774.html > > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > > Noury > -- > http://twitter.com/#!/NouryBouraqadi > http://car.mines-douai.fr/noury > > > > > > -- > ~~Jannik Laval~~ > Ãcole des Mines de Douai > Enseignant-chercheur > http://www.jannik-laval.eu > http://car.mines-douai.fr/ > Noury -- http://twitter.com/#!/NouryBouraqadi http://car.mines-douai.fr/noury

Feb. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Spec documentation in PFTE book finished

by Clara Allende

Nice, just what I was looking for :) Thank you very much! On 12 February 2014 12:08, Johan Fabry <jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl> wrote: > Hi all, > > I am happy to announce that Ben and I finished the documentation of Spec > for the Pharo For The Enterprise book. This documentation is up-to-date > with the latest version of Spec, and is focused towards people wanting to > use it and even extend it (in contrast to the academic papers which are ... > academic ;-) ). I hope that this text will help all the people that are > building UIs in Pharo, and it will clear up any doubts that they may have. > > The chapter is available in source form from the GitHub project of the > PFTE book: > https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/PharoForTheEnterprise-english > > The easiest way to read the chapter is from the continuous integration > server, which produces a html file of the chapter here: > > https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoForTheEnterprise/lastSucces… > (The same server also produces pdf and markdown files, but there are some > strange artifacts there, currently. I guess this will be cleared up in the > future) > > We tried our best to make it understandable and complete, but if you have > any doubts or comments please do not hesitate to let us know !! Ben prefers > Github apparently, but if you are oldskool like me you can also send a mail > (privately or to the mailing list). > > Now it's time to build some cool user interfaces! :-) > > ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- > > Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry > PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile > > >

Feb. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Fosdem Videos and Pharo. 4 presentation

by Torsten Bergmann

Ben wrote: > Torsten Bergmann wrote: > > sent [..] using a Pharo driven mobile phone > That sounds interesting! > Nothing special - just time travelling ;) Bye T.

Feb. 12, 2014

[ANN] Spec documentation in PFTE book finished

by Johan Fabry

Hi all, I am happy to announce that Ben and I finished the documentation of Spec for the Pharo For The Enterprise book. This documentation is up-to-date with the latest version of Spec, and is focused towards people wanting to use it and even extend it (in contrast to the academic papers which are â¦ academic ;-) ). I hope that this text will help all the people that are building UIs in Pharo, and it will clear up any doubts that they may have. The chapter is available in source form from the GitHub project of the PFTE book: https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/PharoForTheEnterprise-english The easiest way to read the chapter is from the continuous integration server, which produces a html file of the chapter here: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoForTheEnterprise/lastSucces… (The same server also produces pdf and markdown files, but there are some strange artifacts there, currently. I guess this will be cleared up in the future) We tried our best to make it understandable and complete, but if you have any doubts or comments please do not hesitate to let us know !! Ben prefers Github apparently, but if you are oldskool like me you can also send a mail (privately or to the mailing list). Now it's time to build some cool user interfaces! :-) ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

Feb. 12, 2014