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Re: [Pharo-dev] Why Smalltalk is not popular?

by Sean P. DeNigris

Igor Stasenko wrote > Why Smalltalk is not popular? > because it's not. That can't be rightâ¦ I'm going to have to check your math ;) p.s. I was surprised we were able to keep this thread to so few posts. Discussing this question is Smalltalk's version of discussing the weather in elevators - pointless, but irresistible... ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Why-Smalltalk-is-not-popular-tp4743009p4743091.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Feb. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Why Smalltalk is not popular?

by Sebastian Sastre

Will could be a push or wishful thinking so I agree on that it will not help directly. Maybe is time to watch Merchants of Cool ? https://archive.org/details/PbsFrontlineMerchantsOfCool It has everything to do with convenience and making teens fell "super powers" If enhancing the product's usability is under your control, then you might be able to manufacture some cool And thatâs a question that really contributes to the question Unless you give a shit about UX/UI to the next generation of newcomers of course sebastian o/ On Feb 12, 2014, at 4:45 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 2014-02-12 15:10 GMT-03:00 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: >> too bad, this is not forum, where you can stick certain topics on top.. >> because this one reoccurring on a regular basis and contributes nothing to >> answering >> the question :) >> >> but let me try to answer >> >> Why Smalltalk is not popular? > >> because it's not. > > This time I agree with Igor "extremely literal" answer. > > Popularity is like "being cool", a social consequence out of your > control (a fad most of the times), you can't "turn cool" with pure > will. > > But there are some attributes that might put you in the "cool > technology" list some day: > * Simplicity > * Reliability > * Performance > * Modernicity > * Interoperability > * Ease of use > > Among others. > > I think that if you focus in what you do, do it the best you can, get > feedback from "foreigners" and work hard, ceteris paribus, the success > is inevitable. > > Regards, > > > > > > > Esteban A. Maringolo >

Feb. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Why Smalltalk is not popular?

by Esteban A. Maringolo

2014-02-12 15:10 GMT-03:00 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: > too bad, this is not forum, where you can stick certain topics on top.. > because this one reoccurring on a regular basis and contributes nothing to > answering > the question :) > > but let me try to answer > > Why Smalltalk is not popular? > because it's not. This time I agree with Igor "extremely literal" answer. Popularity is like "being cool", a social consequence out of your control (a fad most of the times), you can't "turn cool" with pure will. But there are some attributes that might put you in the "cool technology" list some day: * Simplicity * Reliability * Performance * Modernicity * Interoperability * Ease of use Among others. I think that if you focus in what you do, do it the best you can, get feedback from "foreigners" and work hard, ceteris paribus, the success is inevitable. Regards, Esteban A. Maringolo

Feb. 12, 2014

[pharo-project/pharo-core]

by GitHub

Branch: refs/tags/30755 Home: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core

Feb. 12, 2014

[pharo-project/pharo-core] 80399f: 30755

by GitHub

Branch: refs/heads/3.0 Home: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core Commit: 80399fb87096215524136eec52dae22fc2278808 https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core/commit/80399fb87096215524136eec… Author: Jenkins Build Server <board(a)pharo-project.org> Date: 2014-02-12 (Wed, 12 Feb 2014) Changed paths: M Graphics-Display Objects.package/ColorArray.class/README.md M Morphic-Base.package/MorphTreeListManager.class/instance/selection change/selectedItems_.st A Morphic-Base.package/PluggableTextMorph.class/instance/menu commands/cancelWithoutConfirmation.st M Nautilus.package/AbstractNautilusUI.class/class/shortcut-old/buildEditorCommentKeymappingsOldOn_.st M Nautilus.package/AbstractNautilusUI.class/class/shortcuts/buildEditorCommentKeymappingsOn_.st M Nautilus.package/AbstractNautilusUI.class/class/shortcuts/buildEditorKeymappingsOn_.st A ScriptLoader30.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - scripts/script408.st A ScriptLoader30.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - updates/update30755.st M ScriptLoader30.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/public/commentForCurrentUpdate.st M Text-Edition.package/TextEditor.class/class/shortcuts/buildTextEditorShortcutsOn_.st Log Message: ----------- 30755 12845 Make Cmd-L working the cancel without asking to cancel https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/12845 12856 Class comments missing in package Graphics-Display Objects https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/12856 12848 The filtering on top of packages is broken https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/12848 http://files.pharo.org/image/30/30755.zip

Feb. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Why Smalltalk is not popular?

by Igor Stasenko

too bad, this is not forum, where you can stick certain topics on top.. because this one reoccurring on a regular basis and contributes nothing to answering the question :) but let me try to answer Why Smalltalk is not popular? because it's not. :P On 12 February 2014 18:40, Sebastian Sastre <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com>wrote: > great topic > > Time to upvote outside our niche? > > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7225808 > > > > > > > > On Feb 12, 2014, at 3:06 PM, btc(a)openinworld.com wrote: > > hi kilon, > > Thanks for your words. I particularly like them since you've come > recently to Smalltalk after a number of other languages. > > There is some interesting discussion of this topic at [1] which indicate a > predominance of non-technical issues and technical issues that don't apply > today. > Paul Grahams "Blub Paradox" [2] explains why popular is not always best. > Finally, I'd like to get an update on this from this Gartner [3].. > > [1] http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhyIsSmalltalkDead > [2] http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html (for the time constrained search > down the page for "Blub") > [3] http://blogs.gartner.com/mark_driver/2008/10/09/remember-smalltalk/ > > cheers -ben > > kilon alios wrote: > > frankly I find the community here, extremely friendly , well motivated, > reasonable and humble. And I dont let a couple of incidents per year change > my mind of what happens here on a daily basis. > > Smalltalk is unpopular because it never had a big company behind it or a > good marketing strategy. 99% of people out there, had, have and will have > no clue what smalltalk is all about. > > You want to talk about ObjC ? fine . Lets be honest , objc was like 42th > most popular language in TIOBE and now is like 3rd. Why ? because iOS. > Thats all, not because of quality of the language , not because it has > super friendly community , not because users saw the light. > > The only thing that ObjC shares with smalltalk is message passing. Does > that make ObjC part of the family , eh , no. Unless you are prepared to let > tons other languages and IDEs join you, but then you still wont have a > family but a nation. And ObjC is a seriously ugly language. Its still no > C++ , Javascript , Perl or PHP, but its ugly. Smalltalk is gorgeous. > > Also dont put too much emphasis on popularity. Java library is super > popular and many of its libraries are a big pile of mess. Its quantity vs > quality. C++ is on the same boat. Popularity gives you mainly quantity. > > My advice is don't be humble, be proud of your work and what you have > accomplished with Pharo and your individual project. And if sometimes > things go south , remember its much better to be passionate than being > dull. Its all part of being human. Keep an open mind, and keep walking , > one step at a time. > > > On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 5:40 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu>wrote: > >> >> On 12 Feb 2014, at 14:54, askoh <askoh(a)askoh.com> wrote: >> >> > The recent arguments in Smalltalk made me have an Eureka moment on why >> > Smalltalk is not popular. Smalltalk attracts brilliant people. But these >> > brilliant people scare others away. Instead of Showing How, they Show >> Off. >> > Instead of being inclusive, they are picky. Instead of discussing, they >> > fight. >> > >> > So, Smalltalkers, please be humble, friendly and pacific. Show How. >> Invite >> > anyone interested to join. And let's talk normally. >> >> I agree, of course. (With the second paragraph, less with the first: >> these discussion happen everywhere, ever read emails by Linus Torvalds ?) >> >> -- >> >> But I had an epiphany today, based on this discussion of what is the >> definition of Smalltalk. I hereby declare that we are the _third_ most >> popular language (family) in use today ! >> >> Based on this very reputable (ahem) index: >> >> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html >> >> I really think that in a broad definition of Smalltalk, Objective-C is >> part of the family. >> >> According to the first line of >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective-C >> >> Objective-C is a general-purpose, object-oriented programming language >> that adds Smalltalk-style messaging to the C programming language. >> >> And messaging is at the core of Smalltalk. It also has a similar class >> based object model, is late bound in almost everything and has some >> reflective capabilities. There are even a couple of projects mixing the two >> explicitly. >> >> Reserve a bigger venue for the next ESUG ! >> >> Sven >> >> PS: We've had these discussions before on various occasions: it is really >> hard to come up with a definition of what is Smalltalk, or even a good list >> of what is so special about it - there really is a elusive, hard to define >> aspect to it. >> >> > All the best, >> > Aik-Siong Koh >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > View this message in context: >> http://forum.world.st/Why-Smalltalk-is-not-popular-tp4743009.html >> > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >> Nabble.com. >> > >> >> >> > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Feb. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Why Smalltalk is not popular?

by Sebastian Sastre

great topic Time to upvote outside our niche? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7225808 On Feb 12, 2014, at 3:06 PM, btc(a)openinworld.com wrote: > hi kilon, > > Thanks for your words. I particularly like them since you've come recently to Smalltalk after a number of other languages. > > There is some interesting discussion of this topic at [1] which indicate a predominance of non-technical issues and technical issues that don't apply today. > Paul Grahams "Blub Paradox" [2] explains why popular is not always best. > Finally, I'd like to get an update on this from this Gartner [3].. > > [1] http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhyIsSmalltalkDead > [2] http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html (for the time constrained search down the page for "Blub") > [3] http://blogs.gartner.com/mark_driver/2008/10/09/remember-smalltalk/ > > cheers -ben > > kilon alios wrote: >> >> frankly I find the community here, extremely friendly , well motivated, reasonable and humble. And I dont let a couple of incidents per year change my mind of what happens here on a daily basis. >> >> Smalltalk is unpopular because it never had a big company behind it or a good marketing strategy. 99% of people out there, had, have and will have no clue what smalltalk is all about. >> >> You want to talk about ObjC ? fine . Lets be honest , objc was like 42th most popular language in TIOBE and now is like 3rd. Why ? because iOS. Thats all, not because of quality of the language , not because it has super friendly community , not because users saw the light. >> >> The only thing that ObjC shares with smalltalk is message passing. Does that make ObjC part of the family , eh , no. Unless you are prepared to let tons other languages and IDEs join you, but then you still wont have a family but a nation. And ObjC is a seriously ugly language. Its still no C++ , Javascript , Perl or PHP, but its ugly. Smalltalk is gorgeous. >> >> Also dont put too much emphasis on popularity. Java library is super popular and many of its libraries are a big pile of mess. Its quantity vs quality. C++ is on the same boat. Popularity gives you mainly quantity. >> >> My advice is don't be humble, be proud of your work and what you have accomplished with Pharo and your individual project. And if sometimes things go south , remember its much better to be passionate than being dull. Its all part of being human. Keep an open mind, and keep walking , one step at a time. >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 5:40 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> >> On 12 Feb 2014, at 14:54, askoh <askoh(a)askoh.com> wrote: >> >> > The recent arguments in Smalltalk made me have an Eureka moment on why >> > Smalltalk is not popular. Smalltalk attracts brilliant people. But these >> > brilliant people scare others away. Instead of Showing How, they Show Off. >> > Instead of being inclusive, they are picky. Instead of discussing, they >> > fight. >> > >> > So, Smalltalkers, please be humble, friendly and pacific. Show How. Invite >> > anyone interested to join. And let's talk normally. >> >> I agree, of course. (With the second paragraph, less with the first: these discussion happen everywhere, ever read emails by Linus Torvalds ?) >> >> -- >> >> But I had an epiphany today, based on this discussion of what is the definition of Smalltalk. I hereby declare that we are the _third_ most popular language (family) in use today ! >> >> Based on this very reputable (ahem) index: >> >> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html >> >> I really think that in a broad definition of Smalltalk, Objective-C is part of the family. >> >> According to the first line of >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective-C >> >> Objective-C is a general-purpose, object-oriented programming language that adds Smalltalk-style messaging to the C programming language. >> >> And messaging is at the core of Smalltalk. It also has a similar class based object model, is late bound in almost everything and has some reflective capabilities. There are even a couple of projects mixing the two explicitly. >> >> Reserve a bigger venue for the next ESUG ! >> >> Sven >> >> PS: We've had these discussions before on various occasions: it is really hard to come up with a definition of what is Smalltalk, or even a good list of what is so special about it - there really is a elusive, hard to define aspect to it. >> >> > All the best, >> > Aik-Siong Koh >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Why-Smalltalk-is-not-popular-tp4743009.html >> > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> > >> >> >> >

Feb. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Why Smalltalk is not popular?

by phil＠highoctane.be

Excellent points. Facing most of them on the Obj-C, Java, and PHP fronts. Now, in this age of cloud/bigdata/hadoop etc, there is one place where we could make it shine: web api automation & scripting. Yes, Ruby and Python can do that too, but... with things like ZnClient and explore abilities, there is a significant advantage to Pharo. The growing space at the moment are things like Hadoop cluster 2.x. With HDFS for example, there is WebHDFS (REST API). So, this would be a space where we could become great due to the introspection abilities and livecoding. Coupled with Seaside, we could come up with fast interfaces. Now, Ruby has Sinatra for these things but we could have an edge if we start now. I am investigating Hortonworks Data Platform in depth since a couple weeks and Pharo really can help. The WebUIs (like Ambari) are decent, but nothing Seaside+Pharo cannot do fast. Lots of API are Java but the trend is to use REST things. My 0.02. --- Philippe Back Visible Performance Improvements Mob: +32(0) 478 650 140 | Fax: +32 (0) 70 408 027 Mail:phil@highoctane.be | Web: http://philippeback.eu Blog: http://philippeback.be | Twitter: @philippeback Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/philippeback/videos High Octane SPRL rue cour Boisacq 101 | 1301 Bierges | Belgium Pharo Consortium Member - http://consortium.pharo.org/ Featured on the Software Process and Measurement Cast - http://spamcast.libsyn.com Sparx Systems Enterprise Architect and Ability Engineering EADocX Value Added Reseller On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 5:53 PM, J.F. Rick <self(a)je77.com> wrote: > Well, there are some serious reasons that Smalltalk is not currently so > popular. Here are a few: > (1) It used to be expensive. That kept it from being adopted initially. > That may no longer be the case but, once the reputation is ruined, it is > hard for people to give it a second chance. > (2) There is no natural bias built in. Want to program in the browser? > Learn Javascript. Want to program on the server? Learn PHP. Want to take > the AP CS exam in the US? Learn Java. Want to program for MacOS / iOS? > Learn Objective C. Want to use the Microsoft Developer Suite? Learn C#. > Want to bind to the largest set of libraries? Learn C. There is no killer > application domain for Smalltalk. > (3) The syntax is significantly different than languages people are > familiar with. In addition, the IDE is quite different. So, transitioning > is difficult. > (4) There's a Catch-22. People who want to employ Smalltalk programmers > can't find any, so they switch to some language they can find (e.g., Java). > Then, nobody bothers to learn Smalltalk because they perceive as no demand. > > I think there's a real possibility that Pharo can overcome these obstacles > in a meaningful way. The web technologies part is so strong already that it > could easily be the next Ruby on Rails (i.e., comes out of nowhere to gain > real market share by doing one thing really well). The simplicity and live > coding ability could also make it a very nice teaching language, but > significant work will need to be done to make it that. > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > > On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 5:14 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>wrote: > >> frankly I find the community here, extremely friendly , well motivated, >> reasonable and humble. And I dont let a couple of incidents per year change >> my mind of what happens here on a daily basis. >> >> Smalltalk is unpopular because it never had a big company behind it or a >> good marketing strategy. 99% of people out there, had, have and will have >> no clue what smalltalk is all about. >> >> You want to talk about ObjC ? fine . Lets be honest , objc was like 42th >> most popular language in TIOBE and now is like 3rd. Why ? because iOS. >> Thats all, not because of quality of the language , not because it has >> super friendly community , not because users saw the light. >> >> The only thing that ObjC shares with smalltalk is message passing. Does >> that make ObjC part of the family , eh , no. Unless you are prepared to let >> tons other languages and IDEs join you, but then you still wont have a >> family but a nation. And ObjC is a seriously ugly language. Its still no >> C++ , Javascript , Perl or PHP, but its ugly. Smalltalk is gorgeous. >> >> Also dont put too much emphasis on popularity. Java library is super >> popular and many of its libraries are a big pile of mess. Its quantity vs >> quality. C++ is on the same boat. Popularity gives you mainly quantity. >> >> My advice is don't be humble, be proud of your work and what you have >> accomplished with Pharo and your individual project. And if sometimes >> things go south , remember its much better to be passionate than being >> dull. Its all part of being human. Keep an open mind, and keep walking , >> one step at a time. >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 5:40 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu>wrote: >> >>> >>> On 12 Feb 2014, at 14:54, askoh <askoh(a)askoh.com> wrote: >>> >>> > The recent arguments in Smalltalk made me have an Eureka moment on why >>> > Smalltalk is not popular. Smalltalk attracts brilliant people. But >>> these >>> > brilliant people scare others away. Instead of Showing How, they Show >>> Off. >>> > Instead of being inclusive, they are picky. Instead of discussing, they >>> > fight. >>> > >>> > So, Smalltalkers, please be humble, friendly and pacific. Show How. >>> Invite >>> > anyone interested to join. And let's talk normally. >>> >>> I agree, of course. (With the second paragraph, less with the first: >>> these discussion happen everywhere, ever read emails by Linus Torvalds ?) >>> >>> -- >>> >>> But I had an epiphany today, based on this discussion of what is the >>> definition of Smalltalk. I hereby declare that we are the _third_ most >>> popular language (family) in use today ! >>> >>> Based on this very reputable (ahem) index: >>> >>> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html >>> >>> I really think that in a broad definition of Smalltalk, Objective-C is >>> part of the family. >>> >>> According to the first line of >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective-C >>> >>> Objective-C is a general-purpose, object-oriented programming language >>> that adds Smalltalk-style messaging to the C programming language. >>> >>> And messaging is at the core of Smalltalk. It also has a similar class >>> based object model, is late bound in almost everything and has some >>> reflective capabilities. There are even a couple of projects mixing the two >>> explicitly. >>> >>> Reserve a bigger venue for the next ESUG ! >>> >>> Sven >>> >>> PS: We've had these discussions before on various occasions: it is >>> really hard to come up with a definition of what is Smalltalk, or even a >>> good list of what is so special about it - there really is a elusive, hard >>> to define aspect to it. >>> >>> > All the best, >>> > Aik-Siong Koh >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > View this message in context: >>> http://forum.world.st/Why-Smalltalk-is-not-popular-tp4743009.html >>> > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >>> Nabble.com. >>> > >>> >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Jochen "Jeff" Rick, Ph.D. > http://www.je77.com/ > Skype ID: jochenrick >

Feb. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Playing an mp3

by Sean P. DeNigris

On Feb 12, 2014, at 10:37 AM, Noury Bouraqadi-2 [via Smalltalk] <ml-node+s1294792n4743043h21(a)n4.nabble.com> wrote: > @Sean why did you chose to use FMOD and not use the PharoExtras/Sound? What are features that you are missing? I guess because I didn't know it played mp3s ;) Also, I wanted to play with NativeBoost... My requirements are: - play at any speed (e.g. normal, 1.5x, 2x) - play any snippet with millisecond granularity (e.g. play from 5m3s500ms to ...) Do you know off-hand if that's possible with PharoExtras? - Sean ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Playing-an-mp3-tp4742737p4743057.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Feb. 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Why Smalltalk is not popular?

by btc＠openinworld.com

Feb. 12, 2014