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Re: [Pharo-dev] 13102

by Tudor Girba

Hi, I agree that the behavior is not ideal, but it only occurs when you have collisions. And of course it would be great to have everything working perfectly, but at this point it is more important to release. That is why, in my book, it is more important to reduce the impact (fast) than it is to solve it properly (slow). The problem was noticed in few cases. I for one only noticed it after the global shortcuts were introduced in the image. Hence, it is very likely to achieve a good enough state with little effort by removing the shortcuts. Of course, if someone else does have a better solution, he can propose it, but it has to be concrete and doubled by the effort that comes with developing and testing it :) Doru On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 3:22 PM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr>wrote: > Tudor, > > an implementation which randomly determines which shortcut will match is a > bug to me, and one worthy of being solved before release. > > Why wouldn't Moose alone desactivate the global shortcuts if that seems > the solution? > > Thierry > > ------------------------------ > *De :* Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de Tudor > Girba [tudor(a)tudorgirba.com] > *EnvoyÃ© :* lundi 14 avril 2014 15:15 > > *Ã :* Pharo Development List > *Objet :* Re: [Pharo-dev] 13102 > > Hi, > > Sorry for not replying before but I was offline. This issue is not to > fix Keymapping at this point. The current solution was designed with intent > to work in the current way. We can certainly discuss about fixing it, but > the solution is not for Pharo 3. > > The current discussion is about disabling the global shortcuts for > opening the Workspace and other tools. In the Moose image, we disable those > shortcuts because with the current implementation of Keymapping having > complicated global keybindings simply leads to problems (for example, we > cannot use Cmd+o for anything). Do not get me wrong: Keymapping is an > excellent contribution that simplified a lot an important area. My > suggestion is to remove the global mappings for Pharo 3.0, and then > continue to work on getting Keymappings to an even better state. > > Doru > > > On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 2:49 PM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr>wrote: > >> Hi Esteban, Marcus, >> >> in that particular case, I would propose the following simple fix which >> could solve the first impression. >> - Document global shortcuts, ensure that they are single key. >> - Document an overload (or not) effect when your app redefines a global >> shortcut. >> - Change a bit Keymapping so that single key shortcuts match first. >> >> This would solve the immediate problem and let us time to consider a more >> complex solution for Pharo 4. >> >> Thierry >> ________________________________________ >> De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de Esteban >> Lorenzano [estebanlm(a)gmail.com] >> EnvoyÃ© : lundi 14 avril 2014 14:39 >> Ã : Pharo Development List >> Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] 13102 >> >> On 14 Apr 2014, at 14:28, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> >> > >> > On 13 Apr 2014, at 11:26, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: >> > >> >> Hi Marcus, >> >> >> >> I think 13102 is a showstopper. Canât explain this to new users. >> >> >> >> sorry, but I have to disagreeâ¦ this is an important problem, I agree. >> But fix that will need (AFAIK) a lot of work and probably a revamp of the >> keybindings in system. >> Alsoâ¦ this problem was (again, AFAIK) present since pharo2 and we have >> been able to continue working even with that annoyance. >> >> We will always have problems to fix. And we still have many *really >> important* problem to fix. But if we do not release even with some bugs, we >> will never release. >> >> "Show stopperâ IMO, is a bug that prevents the system to continue >> working. Explain to students an annoyance in the system is bad, but not >> show stopper. >> >> soâ¦ Iâm with Marcus. We can delay this fix. But I also believe this kind >> of problems are a âshoot in the footâ, not good for attract newcomers. >> Thatâs why we are suggesting that Pharo4 should centred on the tooling: >> we have the feeling that out tools are one (or several) step(s) behind the >> power that pharo has. >> >> Esteban >> >> > >> > The question is do we hold up the release for it? >> > That is: is not releasing better than releasing with this? >> > >> > How long do we stop releasing, considering that we will not find >> > anyone to fix it? >> > >> > Marcus >> > >> > >> >> >> >> > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing has its own flow" > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

April 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] 13102

by GOUBIER Thierry

Tudor, an implementation which randomly determines which shortcut will match is a bug to me, and one worthy of being solved before release. Why wouldn't Moose alone desactivate the global shortcuts if that seems the solution? Thierry ________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de Tudor Girba [tudor(a)tudorgirba.com] EnvoyÃ© : lundi 14 avril 2014 15:15 Ã : Pharo Development List Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] 13102 Hi, Sorry for not replying before but I was offline. This issue is not to fix Keymapping at this point. The current solution was designed with intent to work in the current way. We can certainly discuss about fixing it, but the solution is not for Pharo 3. The current discussion is about disabling the global shortcuts for opening the Workspace and other tools. In the Moose image, we disable those shortcuts because with the current implementation of Keymapping having complicated global keybindings simply leads to problems (for example, we cannot use Cmd+o for anything). Do not get me wrong: Keymapping is an excellent contribution that simplified a lot an important area. My suggestion is to remove the global mappings for Pharo 3.0, and then continue to work on getting Keymappings to an even better state. Doru On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 2:49 PM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr<mailto:thierry.goubier@cea.fr>> wrote: Hi Esteban, Marcus, in that particular case, I would propose the following simple fix which could solve the first impression. - Document global shortcuts, ensure that they are single key. - Document an overload (or not) effect when your app redefines a global shortcut. - Change a bit Keymapping so that single key shortcuts match first. This would solve the immediate problem and let us time to consider a more complex solution for Pharo 4. Thierry ________________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] de la part de Esteban Lorenzano [estebanlm(a)gmail.com<mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>] EnvoyÃ© : lundi 14 avril 2014 14:39 Ã : Pharo Development List Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] 13102 On 14 Apr 2014, at 14:28, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr<mailto:marcus.denker@inria.fr>> wrote: > > On 13 Apr 2014, at 11:26, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl<mailto:stephan@stack.nl>> wrote: > >> Hi Marcus, >> >> I think 13102 is a showstopper. Canât explain this to new users. >> sorry, but I have to disagreeâ¦ this is an important problem, I agree. But fix that will need (AFAIK) a lot of work and probably a revamp of the keybindings in system. Alsoâ¦ this problem was (again, AFAIK) present since pharo2 and we have been able to continue working even with that annoyance. We will always have problems to fix. And we still have many *really important* problem to fix. But if we do not release even with some bugs, we will never release. "Show stopperâ IMO, is a bug that prevents the system to continue working. Explain to students an annoyance in the system is bad, but not show stopper. soâ¦ Iâm with Marcus. We can delay this fix. But I also believe this kind of problems are a âshoot in the footâ, not good for attract newcomers. Thatâs why we are suggesting that Pharo4 should centred on the tooling: we have the feeling that out tools are one (or several) step(s) behind the power that pharo has. Esteban > > The question is do we hold up the release for it? > That is: is not releasing better than releasing with this? > > How long do we stop releasing, considering that we will not find > anyone to fix it? > > Marcus > > -- www.tudorgirba.com<http://www.tudorgirba.com> "Every thing has its own flow"

April 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] 13102

by Tudor Girba

Hi, Sorry for not replying before but I was offline. This issue is not to fix Keymapping at this point. The current solution was designed with intent to work in the current way. We can certainly discuss about fixing it, but the solution is not for Pharo 3. The current discussion is about disabling the global shortcuts for opening the Workspace and other tools. In the Moose image, we disable those shortcuts because with the current implementation of Keymapping having complicated global keybindings simply leads to problems (for example, we cannot use Cmd+o for anything). Do not get me wrong: Keymapping is an excellent contribution that simplified a lot an important area. My suggestion is to remove the global mappings for Pharo 3.0, and then continue to work on getting Keymappings to an even better state. Doru On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 2:49 PM, GOUBIER Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr>wrote: > Hi Esteban, Marcus, > > in that particular case, I would propose the following simple fix which > could solve the first impression. > - Document global shortcuts, ensure that they are single key. > - Document an overload (or not) effect when your app redefines a global > shortcut. > - Change a bit Keymapping so that single key shortcuts match first. > > This would solve the immediate problem and let us time to consider a more > complex solution for Pharo 4. > > Thierry > ________________________________________ > De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de Esteban > Lorenzano [estebanlm(a)gmail.com] > EnvoyÃ© : lundi 14 avril 2014 14:39 > Ã : Pharo Development List > Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] 13102 > > On 14 Apr 2014, at 14:28, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > > > > On 13 Apr 2014, at 11:26, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > > > >> Hi Marcus, > >> > >> I think 13102 is a showstopper. Canât explain this to new users. > >> > > sorry, but I have to disagreeâ¦ this is an important problem, I agree. > But fix that will need (AFAIK) a lot of work and probably a revamp of the > keybindings in system. > Alsoâ¦ this problem was (again, AFAIK) present since pharo2 and we have > been able to continue working even with that annoyance. > > We will always have problems to fix. And we still have many *really > important* problem to fix. But if we do not release even with some bugs, we > will never release. > > "Show stopperâ IMO, is a bug that prevents the system to continue working. > Explain to students an annoyance in the system is bad, but not show stopper. > > soâ¦ Iâm with Marcus. We can delay this fix. But I also believe this kind > of problems are a âshoot in the footâ, not good for attract newcomers. > Thatâs why we are suggesting that Pharo4 should centred on the tooling: we > have the feeling that out tools are one (or several) step(s) behind the > power that pharo has. > > Esteban > > > > > The question is do we hold up the release for it? > > That is: is not releasing better than releasing with this? > > > > How long do we stop releasing, considering that we will not find > > anyone to fix it? > > > > Marcus > > > > > > > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

April 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] 13102

by GOUBIER Thierry

Hi Esteban, Marcus, in that particular case, I would propose the following simple fix which could solve the first impression. - Document global shortcuts, ensure that they are single key. - Document an overload (or not) effect when your app redefines a global shortcut. - Change a bit Keymapping so that single key shortcuts match first. This would solve the immediate problem and let us time to consider a more complex solution for Pharo 4. Thierry ________________________________________ De : Pharo-dev [pharo-dev-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org] de la part de Esteban Lorenzano [estebanlm(a)gmail.com] EnvoyÃ© : lundi 14 avril 2014 14:39 Ã : Pharo Development List Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] 13102 On 14 Apr 2014, at 14:28, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > On 13 Apr 2014, at 11:26, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > >> Hi Marcus, >> >> I think 13102 is a showstopper. Canât explain this to new users. >> sorry, but I have to disagreeâ¦ this is an important problem, I agree. But fix that will need (AFAIK) a lot of work and probably a revamp of the keybindings in system. Alsoâ¦ this problem was (again, AFAIK) present since pharo2 and we have been able to continue working even with that annoyance. We will always have problems to fix. And we still have many *really important* problem to fix. But if we do not release even with some bugs, we will never release. "Show stopperâ IMO, is a bug that prevents the system to continue working. Explain to students an annoyance in the system is bad, but not show stopper. soâ¦ Iâm with Marcus. We can delay this fix. But I also believe this kind of problems are a âshoot in the footâ, not good for attract newcomers. Thatâs why we are suggesting that Pharo4 should centred on the tooling: we have the feeling that out tools are one (or several) step(s) behind the power that pharo has. Esteban > > The question is do we hold up the release for it? > That is: is not releasing better than releasing with this? > > How long do we stop releasing, considering that we will not find > anyone to fix it? > > Marcus > >

April 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] 13102

by Esteban Lorenzano

On 14 Apr 2014, at 14:28, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > On 13 Apr 2014, at 11:26, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > >> Hi Marcus, >> >> I think 13102 is a showstopper. Canât explain this to new users. >> sorry, but I have to disagreeâ¦ this is an important problem, I agree. But fix that will need (AFAIK) a lot of work and probably a revamp of the keybindings in system. Alsoâ¦ this problem was (again, AFAIK) present since pharo2 and we have been able to continue working even with that annoyance. We will always have problems to fix. And we still have many *really important* problem to fix. But if we do not release even with some bugs, we will never release. "Show stopperâ IMO, is a bug that prevents the system to continue working. Explain to students an annoyance in the system is bad, but not show stopper. soâ¦ Iâm with Marcus. We can delay this fix. But I also believe this kind of problems are a âshoot in the footâ, not good for attract newcomers. Thatâs why we are suggesting that Pharo4 should centred on the tooling: we have the feeling that out tools are one (or several) step(s) behind the power that pharo has. Esteban > > The question is do we hold up the release for it? > That is: is not releasing better than releasing with this? > > How long do we stop releasing, considering that we will not find > anyone to fix it? > > Marcus > >

April 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] 13102

by Marcus Denker

On 13 Apr 2014, at 11:26, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > Hi Marcus, > > I think 13102 is a showstopper. Canât explain this to new users. > The question is do we hold up the release for it? That is: is not releasing better than releasing with this? How long do we stop releasing, considering that we will not find anyone to fix it? Marcus

April 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] 11834 Debugger <Restart> then <Over> does not step over

by Ben Coman

Ben Coman wrote: > Has anyone else noticed the different in behaviour between #haltOnce > and #halt. For example, evaluate the following.... > Halt enableHaltOnce. > Transcript crShow: 1. > self haltOnce. > Transcript crShow: 2. > self halt. > Transcript crShow: 3. > > When the Debugger appears, select Undefined>>DoIt in the stack, > then <Restart>, then step <Over> until the end of script. > > I logged this case a while ago... > https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/11834/Debugger-Restart-then-Over-does-not… > > but its not clear if there is a bug. > > Any opinions? > > cheers -ben > > Max, Thanks for your comment on the Case. I've moved to Pharo 4. cheers -ben

April 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo3] Issue tracker status

by Marcus Denker

On 12 Apr 2014, at 11:52, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> >>> >>>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/filters/64/3-0-TODO >>>> >>>> (this list should be empty before we release) >>>> >>>> There are overall 87 issues tagged for Pharo3: >>>> >>> down to 74 >> down to 50 >> > Down to 41 > Down to 35â¦ Marcus

April 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] 13102

by Stephan Eggermont

Sven wrote: >I don't have an opinion on this, but 'showstopper' ~= 'Canât explain this to new users'. Try explaining our Morphic implementation to new users ;-P It is not the implementation I need to explain. Can anyone explain why global shortcuts should override application ones? I havenât seen a rationale for that. Stephan

April 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] 13102

by Sergi Reyner

2014-04-13 15:50 GMT+01:00 Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com>: > Stephan Eggermont wrote > > I think 13102 is a showstopper. Can't explain this to new users. > > I don't have an opinion on this, but 'showstopper' ~= 'Can't explain this > to > new users'. Try explaining our Morphic implementation to new users ;-P > I am on the "You create some objects, or not, and send them some messages, and then morphs do stuff sometimes. Or something." stage. Cheers, Sergi

April 13, 2014