- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] a Pharo talk from a ruby conference

by Jimmie Houchin

In the Smalltalk heritage. Pharo comes from Smalltalk 80. But we don't want to be stuck in 1980. We want Smalltalk 2014. Smalltalk 80 was modern for 1980. They didn't want to be stuck in 1976. ... And Smalltalk isn't unique to this. Is C11 not a C because it is not K&R, or C89, C90 or C99? Is Python 3.x not Python because it is not fully compatible with Python 2.x which is dominant? Pharo wants to be a modern Smalltalk able to empower people in this era to do things that we do in 2014. We need appropriate modularity in the image. We need the image to be clean. We need to learn the lessons we as Smalltalker's have learned in the last 24 years and apply them to Pharo Smalltalk. And I believe that is much of what Pharo is attempting to do. Noel in his talk said that Smalltalk doesn't play well with others. And with Pharo it still isn't as easy as in other languages like Python, Ruby, Lua, etc. But with NativeBoost we have a tool which enables us to do much. And NativeBoost isn't finished. I believe when NativeBoost is fully mature and the vm/image has sufficiently changed to enable us. We will have one of the best plays with others well stories. I know in the app I am writing, NativeBoost's current condition struggled with my library. It often crashed. This library has to deal with a C Thread. Which is why I am spending my current time studying C. Whether or not the Smalltalk Inspired crowd likes it, the moment some else declares that Pharo is a Smalltalk the Smalltalk Inspired marketing is tanked. The cat is out of the bag. The Reddit thread demonstrates this. People went to the new website. They read the current marketing and were confused. What is this Pharo thing. And in the thread it comes out that Pharo is a Smalltalk. Lets make that clear up front. Then lets define what it means to be Pharo Smalltalk. Here is an unfortunate quote from that thread. """ emaringolo 1 point an hour ago Pharo is aimed to do serious/business development, and it's been reshaping itself since its conception (several years ago when it forked from Squeak). It doesn't want to have any backward or "historic" compatibility with other Smalltalks. You can see its changelogs and the roadmap for future versions to see how it is different, and how it will be different. """ This makes it sound like Pharo wants remove compatibility simply for the sake of not being a Smalltalk. As opposed to what I believe Esteban meant. And yes I understand that English is not his native language, and there are many for whom it is, who still use it poorly. What I believe he meant, is that Pharo will not be constrained by backward compatibility. If a change or feature that is of value to Pharo Smalltalk. That feature will be done even if it means breaking backward compatibility with other Smalltalk 80 based Smalltalks. We are moving forward. But this does not invalidate Pharo being a Smalltalk. As has been stated before, breaking changes happened in Smalltalk 76 and 80. Smalltalk has a wonderful heritage. It is not without its issues. However the good of Smalltalk is enormous. Take a look at this chart http://exploringdata.github.io/vis/programming-languages-influence-network/ Smalltalk is a big influence in the history of programming. This is something worth being a part of. Be proud of it. Pharo needs to define what one vision of a modern Smalltalk is. Let us educate people of what our vision for Pharo Smalltalk is. And guess what folks its 2014. Before long it wont be. And before long the vision of Pharo 2014 will no longer be any more modern than Smalltalk 80. But neither Smalltalk 80 nor Pharo 3.0 constrain what it means to be Smalltalk. Smalltalk inspires vision and inspires people to do things which change the present and the future. Lets build on that heritage and take it forward. What does a modern Smalltalk snapshot 2014 mean. Lets educate and communicate. Others (non-Smalltalkers) don't get to define what Smalltalk is. We do. Let us learn from them what they think Smalltalk is. Where they are wrong, educate them. Where they are right and we have an issue. Let's learn a lesson and improve our Smalltalk. Computer science/art is young. This is a journey. Lets make it a good one. Jimmie On 04/30/2014 11:12 AM, phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: > Pharo := Smalltalk ++ > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 5:43 PM, Jimmie Houchin <jlhouchin(a)gmail.com > <mailto:jlhouchin@gmail.com>> wrote: > > On 04/28/2014 11:12 AM, Marcus Denker wrote: > > â¦ more a Smalltalk one using Pharo: > > MountainWest RubyConf 2014 > > Noel Rappin: "But Really, You Should Learn Smalltalkâ > > Smalltalk has mystique. We talk about it more than we use it. > It seems like it should be so similar to Ruby. It has similar > Object-Oriented structures, it even has blocks. But everything > is so slightly different, from the programming environment, to > the 1-based arrays, to the simple syntax. Using Smalltalk will > make you look at familiar constructs with new eyes. Weâll show > you how to get started on Smalltalk, and walk through some > sample code. Live coding may be involved. Youâll never look at > objects the same way again. > > http://www.confreaks.com/videos/3284-mwrc-but-really-you-should-learn-small… > > > In this thread and many others there is this debate as to whether > Pharo is a Smalltalk or is Smalltalk Inspired. > > I find the Smalltalk Inspired arguments to be unpersuasive. To be > Smalltalk Inspired is to say that you are not a Smalltalk. It is > to say that Pharo is not Smalltalk but inspired by it. > > I find that reasoning patently false. > > First of all everything in Pharo begins from a Smalltalk image. It > comes from Squeak Smalltalk which comes from Apple Smalltalk. etc. > > Pharo has an isA relationship with Smalltalk, not an isInspiredBy > relationship. It may change and add features, but as has been > stated before, Smalltalk isn't a static idea or artifact. It has > always been a dynamic live environment in which to change itself > into something it believed to be better. By removing features and > by growing them. > > Smalltalk (an instance of SmalltalkImage), SmalltalkImage, > SmalltalkImageTest, SmalltalkEditingState are all part of the > Pharo Smalltalk image. > > The Pharo image is a Smalltalk image. It says so inside the image > itself. > > Where are we hosting are source code? Would that be SmalltalkHub? > Lets see something. > http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Pharo > <http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#%21/%7EPharo> > > Okay, Pharo might be doing things that would break compatibility > with other Smalltalks. And that causes some people pain and grief. > However that does not make Pharo not a Smalltalk. Was Smalltalk 76 > constrained by backward compatibility with Smalltalk 72? Or > Smalltalk 80 with either Smalltalk 76 or 72? No! > > Is it a requirement of Pharo to be constrained by other Smalltalk > implementations in order to still be a Smalltalk. No! > > And then there is the argument of the outside worlds perception of > Smalltalk. Since when does the perception of the outside world > change whether or not Pharo is a Smalltalk? If the outside world > changed their mind and decided Smalltalk is wonderful, does Pharo > then all of the sudden become a Smalltalk? Ugh! > > We are who we are. Our roots are our roots. Pharo should be happy > and proud to be a Smalltalk. A Smalltalk that is continuing the > heritage of innovation. A Smalltalk that is continuing the > heritage of inventing the future. > > We have decided to be marketing driven. Marketing is important. > But marketing should determine who we are. And we should engage in > disingenuous marketing practice trying to hide our roots or who we > are. > > Why do we things distancing ourselves from Smalltalk advantages > us? Just because there are lots of uneducated people who have the > wrong idea about Smalltalk. Clojure embraced its Lisp heritage and > is thriving. Lisp has every bit as much baggage. > > This talk which inspired this thread called Pharo as Smalltalk. He > said, Pharo Smalltalk throughout the presentation. So in the mind > of the presenter and now in the mind of the audience at the > conference and of the video, Pharo is a Smalltalk. So now are we > to go about re-educating all these people that Pharo is not a > Smalltalk but is rather Smalltalk Inspired? > > We don't require the outside world's permission. We don't need > their approval. We would like to have a reasonable and sufficient > number of them to catch the Pharo Smalltalk vision and become a > part of the family. Do we really desire everybody. No. Do we > desire those people who are so closed minded that the mention of > Smalltalk closes their mind because of their ignorance. I don't > think so. > > Smalltalk is different. Pharo is Smalltalk and is different. There > will be those who don't like it because of the baggage they bring, > not the baggage we bring. And that is okay. All of us think > different. People need to embrace what empowers them and quit > complaining about what empowers somebody else. We need to embrace > empowering people who understand Smalltalk not the people who > don't get it for whatever reason. Let those people go and be > empowered somewhere else. We and they will both be better off. > > Feel free to shred and destroy my arguments. I am proud to use > Smalltalk. And currently Pharo is the Smalltalk I am choosing to > use. Currently I am studying C. A C library is required for my > project and in order to use Pharo and use this library, I need > sufficient C skills. > > My opinion unapologetically. > > And if the powers that be who are in charge of Pharo decide that > Smalltalk (in name) is baggage and Pharo is not Smalltalk. And > that marketing Pharo as Smalltalk is bad. Then please be honest > and change all references in the image of Smalltalk to Pharo. Also > change SmalltalkHub to PharoHub or SmalltalkInspiredHub. > > If if not, be sincere and embrace Pharo Smalltalk. > > Long live Smalltalk. > > Jimmie > >

April 30, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo 3.0 / Roassal2 / Ubuntu

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

I just tried on Mac OS X and that worked fine, you have to make sure that you use the latest VM I guess. I believe the required libraries come with the VM. But I am an inexperienced user on this area. On 30 Apr 2014, at 19:53, volkert(a)nivoba.de wrote: > Dear all, > > i just downloaded Pharo 3.0 and installed Roassal2 via Configuration Manager (Stable Version). > When trying the "Roassal examples" (from Tool-Menu) i got an red screen. > > Platform Ubuntu 14.04LTS > Pharo3.0 Latest update: #30846 > > Need some help :-) > > BW, > Volkert >

April 30, 2014

good article on mainstream adoption of programming languages

by Johan Brichau

Since this discussion often returns on this mailinglist, here is a good article. It focuses on Haskell, but a lot of arguments apply to Smalltalk as well. http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2014/04/29/what-do-you-think-is-impeding-… cheers Johan

April 30, 2014

Pharo 3.0 / Roassal2 / Ubuntu

by volkert＠nivoba.de

Dear all, i just downloaded Pharo 3.0 and installed Roassal2 via Configuration Manager (Stable Version). When trying the "Roassal examples" (from Tool-Menu) i got an red screen. Platform Ubuntu 14.04LTS Pharo3.0 Latest update: #30846 Need some help :-) BW, Volkert

April 30, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] [pharo-project/pharo-core]

by Eliot Miranda

Hi Sean, *thank you*. Just to be sure, the requirement is for the email service to be tailorable so that one can ask e.g. for the commit id /and/ the commit comment, or the commit id, commit comment and affected files. Is that what you asked for? On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 9:50 AM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com>wrote: > Sean P. DeNigris wrote > > I've reached out and await their reply. > > From github support: > The pharo-project/pharo-core repository is using the Email Service Hook to > provide notifications on push. The Email Service Hook doesn't currently > allow you to configure which pushes should trigger notifications.Note that > these are not regular GitHub Notifications [1], and that many open source > projects do not use the Email Service Hook for notifications on push, > because of the volume of email generated. > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/pharo-project-pharo-core-tp4756985p4757293.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > > -- best, Eliot

April 30, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo RPi and FileSystem error

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

I thought that we did that already: OSEnvironment class>>#isAvailable NativeBoost class>>#isAvailable PlatformIndependentEnvironment No ? Are you using the latest 3.0 ? On 30 Apr 2014, at 18:49, Jean Baptiste Arnaud <jbaptiste.arnaud(a)gmail.com> wrote: > That the point I want to checks it, run test and if work integrated for raspbian. > It is completely generated it shouldn't have any problem. But ... > > A really nice guy can just do the image side hack to avoid FileSystem error. > > On 30 Apr 2014, at 18:24, Douglas McPherson <djm1329(a)san.rr.com> wrote: > >> As a data point, OSProcess works "out-of-the-box" with the Squeak interpreter VM shipped with Raspbian. So should be ok in Pharo, but I haven't tried it. >> >> Doug >> >> On Apr 30, 2014, at 09:03 , David T. Lewis wrote: >> >>>> >>>> There are no NativeBoost on Rpi, FFI or OSProcess. >>>> Basically the fileSystem work, but some data are fetch via env variable >>>> and then NativeBoost. >>>> The solution is to bypass all the request of env variable. >>>> You should use another way until, we finish to integrate a way to request >>>> correctly the env variable (NB on arm). >>>> >>>> I will studies the possibility to reintegrate fast the OSProcess plugin to >>>> offer "better" solution. >>> >>> >>> I would expect OSProcess to work without problems on Rpi, although I do >>> not have a way to test it. The plugin should be fine. Maybe some changes >>> will be needed on the image side for detecting the platform, I'm not sure. >>> >>> Let me know if I can help, I will be glad to add any necessary patches to >>> OSProcess. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> >> >> > > > > Best Regards > Jean Baptiste Arnaud > jbaptiste.arnaud(a)gmail.com > > > > > > >

April 30, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-users] New Website online

by kilon alios

Hmm I see no such reply in my comment at Reddit. Actually from what I see none replied to my comment. Trimmed as removed ? You mean I should remove Amber mention completely ? For me as a coder is important that I work inside an environment that allows me to take advantage of existing technology. So amber and general access to javascript libraries is another reason why I use Pharo. I have not done anything substantial with Amber as I have done with Nativeboost but its none the less a good reason Why I use Pharo. I dont expect my video to clear up every single confusion. Confusion is part of the process of not being familiar with something. But I think I make it clear that Amber is one of the many options out there to use javascript libraries with Pharo. I am always considering redoing the video since it a very important question and improving the overall presentation. thank you, your comment really matters for me :) On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > I really liked your video, I just think a the little bit at the front > that shows Amber should be trimmed. There was a comment on reddit "So it's > smalltalk in a browser? " > cheers -ben > > > kilon alios wrote: > > I love the new website definitely an improvement , don't like the new > flatten logo , old one was a very beautiful design. R.I.P > > Thanks for including my video "Why Pharo" in the website I feel honoured > and thank you for your hard work. > > > On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 7:07 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com > > wrote: > >> Yes, well done!! >> >> Alexandre >> >> >> On Apr 30, 2014, at 12:48 PM, Johan Fabry <jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl> wrote: >> >> > >> > Slick! Congrats on the site. >> > >> > On Apr 30, 2014, at 10:26 AM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> >> wrote: >> > >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> The new website is online! >> >> >> >> http://pharo.org >> >> >> >> For now, pharo-project.org still is the old website. >> >> Next: pharo-project.org should forward to pharo.org, >> >> it will still be available as old.pharo-project.org for some time. >> >> >> >> Thanks a lot to >> >> Nico http://nicolas-petton.fr, >> >> Esteban http://smallworks.eu, >> >> Damien http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st >> >> and Aurelia http://aurelia.saout.fr >> >> >> >> >> >> Marcus >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- >> > >> > Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry >> > PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile >> > >> > >> >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> >> >> >> >> > >

April 30, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] New Website online

by Sebastian Sastre

On Apr 30, 2014, at 1:04 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > One of Simon Sinek's core ideas is that people "buy" your product because > they believe what you believe, and that the why needs to come first to suck > them in. > Well said Sean. For the record, you can quote me on this all you want: I came to Pharo because I believe in Smalltalk. Specifically in its designsâ principles. The rest is BS to me sebastian o/

April 30, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] New Website online

by Esteban Lorenzano

ok, I have put the first suggestion. I can try the other one tooâ¦ as you prefer :) Esteban On 30 Apr 2014, at 18:04, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > One of Simon Sinek's core ideas is that people "buy" your product because > they believe what you believe, and that the why needs to come first to suck > them in. > > Until we decide on the perfect wording, I would at least: > - change the heading from "The live programming environment" to "The > immersive programming experience" > - combine the top section and the why section into: > "Pharo gives you immediate and total control over your programming > experience. Focused on simplicity, cleanness, and immediate feedback, it is > a pure object-oriented programming language <italics>and</italics> a clean, > beautiful, innovative environment (think IDE and OS rolled into one). It is > open source and available for Mac OS X, Windows and Linux. > because: > - it puts the why first > - someone on reddit specifically said that "environment" doesn't really > clear anything up for them; thus "(think IDE and OS rolled into one)" > - moves the most nitty gritty implementation details to the rear (e.g. > platform support) > > But I would seriously consider my other suggestion (the one starting with > "Do you want total, immediate control..."). It may sound a bit cheesy with > our engineer hats on, but I've had a lot of marketing/branding training, and > bold, emotionally appealing stuff like this is pure gold. > > And for the release snippet, I would change from: "Pharo, the programming > language, live IDE and core library has a new release!" to maybe "Pharo - > the programming language and core library immersed in a live IDE (all > written in itself!) - has a new release!" to highlight the key points > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/New-Website-online-tp4757241p4757278.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

April 30, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo 3.0 Released!

by Sebastian Sastre

On Apr 30, 2014, at 11:01 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Dear World, > > Pharo 3.0 (http://www.pharo.org) is here. Congratulations everyone. And many many thanks for all of you that have so generously contributed to reach this important milestone sebastian o/

April 30, 2014