- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo in Rasbian ?

by jannik laval

2014-05-22 10:43 GMT+02:00 phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be>: > I'd say that Phratch is another kind of beast. > As it has deeper abilities to go down the system, the pragmas blocks > things etc. > > In that, this can be usable by engineers and not kids. I am seeing Phratch > as "Scratch for grown ups". > From I saw from the code and plugins etc, there has indeed been a ton of > cleanups. > > One very cool place where we would see it are in fablabs. > > e.g. Close to where I live - http://makilab.org (this thing is getting > its wings ready) - and where I'll introduce Phratch at one point. > Thank you ! > > Jannik, you have given us a powertool. Let's use it as such! > :D Jannik > > Phil > > > On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 9:50 AM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > >> I think that Jannik started to clean to code long before tim and he is >> not payed for that >> so at least we should respect that and do not start to blame him about >> redundancy. >> >> And cleaning Scratch is really a MUST because it is full of *&%^&%. >> To the point that the people from Scat dropped the maintenance because it >> was a NIGHTMARE. >> >> So can we respect the work of people? >> >> Stef >> >> On 21/5/14 18:11, Chris Muller wrote: >> >>> One reason might be that Phratch is kind of redundant isn't it? >>> Smalltalk already has a foothold on the Pi in the form of Squeak, and >>> Tim Rowledge is being paid by that organization right now to improve >>> Scratch. So if you're interested in helping kids learn programming >>> with Scratch, why not check with Tim see if you can find a way help >>> with what he's doing..? >>> >>> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Alexandre Bergel >>> <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi! >>>> >>>> My point was the following: why Phratch is not included in the default >>>> setting of Rasbian? >>>> >>>> Alexandre >>>> -- >>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 20, 2014, at 9:36 AM, jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> Probably he does not know phratch for Rasberry-Pi: >>>>> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/view/Phratch/job/ >>>>> Phratch-OneClick-RPi/ >>>>> >>>>> Cheers :) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2014-05-20 15:32 GMT+02:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>: >>>>> Hi! >>>>> >>>>> A friend of mine recently bought a Raspberry pi and installed Rasbian, >>>>> a Debian-like OS for Raspberry. Squeak and Scratch are installed per >>>>> default. There is room to fill here... >>>>> >>>>> <image001.png> >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Alexandre >>>>> -- >>>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>>>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> ~~Jannik Laval~~ >>>>> Ãcole des Mines de Douai >>>>> Enseignant-chercheur >>>>> http://www.jannik-laval.eu >>>>> http://www.phratch.com >>>>> http://car.mines-douai.fr/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > -- ~~Jannik Laval~~ Ãcole des Mines de Douai Enseignant-chercheur http://www.jannik-laval.eu http://www.phratch.com http://car.mines-douai.fr/

May 22, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo in Rasbian ?

by jannik laval

2014-05-22 9:50 GMT+02:00 stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr>: > I think that Jannik started to clean to code long before tim probably yes. > and he is not payed for that > so at least we should respect that and do not start to blame him about > redundancy. > The question is legitimate, this is not a problem to ask it. I answered. > > And cleaning Scratch is really a MUST because it is full of *&%^&%. > To the point that the people from Scat dropped the maintenance because it > was a NIGHTMARE. > Yes, but they did a great work that help me a lot to begin. Jannik > > So can we respect the work of people? > > Stef > > > On 21/5/14 18:11, Chris Muller wrote: > >> One reason might be that Phratch is kind of redundant isn't it? >> Smalltalk already has a foothold on the Pi in the form of Squeak, and >> Tim Rowledge is being paid by that organization right now to improve >> Scratch. So if you're interested in helping kids learn programming >> with Scratch, why not check with Tim see if you can find a way help >> with what he's doing..? >> >> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Alexandre Bergel >> <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi! >>> >>> My point was the following: why Phratch is not included in the default >>> setting of Rasbian? >>> >>> Alexandre >>> -- >>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 20, 2014, at 9:36 AM, jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Probably he does not know phratch for Rasberry-Pi: >>>> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/view/Phratch/job/ >>>> Phratch-OneClick-RPi/ >>>> >>>> Cheers :) >>>> >>>> >>>> 2014-05-20 15:32 GMT+02:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>: >>>> Hi! >>>> >>>> A friend of mine recently bought a Raspberry pi and installed Rasbian, >>>> a Debian-like OS for Raspberry. Squeak and Scratch are installed per >>>> default. There is room to fill here... >>>> >>>> <image001.png> >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Alexandre >>>> -- >>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ~~Jannik Laval~~ >>>> Ãcole des Mines de Douai >>>> Enseignant-chercheur >>>> http://www.jannik-laval.eu >>>> http://www.phratch.com >>>> http://car.mines-douai.fr/ >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > -- ~~Jannik Laval~~ Ãcole des Mines de Douai Enseignant-chercheur http://www.jannik-laval.eu http://www.phratch.com http://car.mines-douai.fr/

May 22, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo in Rasbian ?

by jannik laval

Thank you Tim for all these precisions. Jannik 2014-05-21 19:43 GMT+02:00 Chris Muller <ma.chris.m(a)gmail.com>: > Okay, thanks for filling in the background for me. > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 12:00 PM, tim Rowledge <tim(a)rowledge.org> wrote: > > (I donât have a subscription to the pharo list so I imagine this will > bounce from there) > > > > > > On 21-05-2014, at 9:47 AM, jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Yes, we already discussed about that with Tim. > >> Our goal is not the same. > > > > Exactly; there are quite different needs to fill. Scratch is part of the > UK (and some US) school curricula and so the basic version must be exactly > as expected. People get very hot under the collar anytime I suggest even > the smallest change other than making it faster. > > > > There is certainly room for expansions *later* but it will be a > difficult job to get people invested in the idea. Teachers have a hard > enough time without being blind-sided by new âimprovedâ software. > > > >> I don't want to say something wrong, but Tim want to do Scratch on a > recent Squeak, then including BYOB. He is working hard to integrate it on > RPi. > > > > Yup. Porting Scratch forward was a *lot* of work. Thereâs still a lot to > do. > > > > > >> Phratch is something different: it is based on Scratch, but the goal is > to be as much extendable as possible. For example, I use it for robotics. > This is not possible in Scratch. Yes there is Enchanting, but it is based > on a plugin if I understood well. > > > > Enchanting is very cool and largely based on the original BYOB IIRC. > There are quite a few other robot-contolling systems based on âplainâ > Scratch though, especially on the Pi where we have all those nice GPIO pins > to play with. Sadly a lot of them use a Python âserverâ to handle Scratch > broadcasts and then talk to the GPIO or other attached hardware add-ons. > Iâd like to work around that. > > > >> Another goal is to access to Smalltalk code. As a good learning > language, I think that using phratch should help developers to learn > smalltalk, which is not a goal of Scratch. > > > > True, and also very foolish of MIT. I think making Smalltalk available > through Scratch is a great aim. > > > >> > >> So, as I said, we already discussed with Tim, and I am sure we will > reuse our work. If I remember, Tim already has a look at phratch source > code. For my part, if Tim do plugins that work on RPi, I will probably use > them. > >> And I hope to meet Tim at ESUG if he will come to discuss about all of > that. > > > > Iâm still planning on attending, so I look forward to talking. > > > > > > tim > > -- > > tim Rowledge; tim(a)rowledge.org; http://www.rowledge.org/tim > > Never do card tricks for the group you play poker with. > > > > > -- ~~Jannik Laval~~ Ãcole des Mines de Douai Enseignant-chercheur http://www.jannik-laval.eu http://www.phratch.com http://car.mines-douai.fr/

May 22, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Clarifications with small lint rules

by stepharo

If you improve the system send us fixes. Just make sure that - the tests run - you add tests. Stef

May 22, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] The funny side of Pharo : Message Definitely Not Understood

by Eliot Miranda

On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 1:37 AM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be>wrote: > On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 1:18 AM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com>wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> >> On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 3:11 AM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >> >>> We would love to have a real update but I'm sure that you realize that >>> something we >>> are modifying the system that modify the methods modifying the system. >>> >> >> but we've been doing that for years. It used to be tricky using change >> sets, but Monticello's update scheme means it is very simple. >> >> >>> >>> So we should probably remove the software update button. >>> Now if somebody wants to work on an infrastructure supporting real >>> atomic load. >>> >> >> I don't think one needs atomic load to do this. It is very nice to have >> but Monticello's update scheme is sufficient. >> >> >>> Stef >>> PS: the last time I updated my iPhone it blocked and I had to fully >>> reinstall everything. >>> And once when I updated my mac my mouse got blocked forever on the left >>> top corner. >>> >>> But I can't remember the last time an update for Squeak failed and the >> updates are of the cool kind you mention. Personally I think having an >> update system is a *really important* facility in a development >> environment. It means I can keep my personal working environment >> up-to-date. That means I'm more likely to be able to contribute my own >> improvements to the system. >> >> I worked for a long time with VisualWorks which has a closed development >> cycle, and doesn't support anything like update. Keeping up to date was >> always slightly tedious (one had to do things like export one's own stuff >> and import it into the latest image, etc). Since I've been using Squeak >> I've understood how superior the Monticello scheme is. So I would urge you >> to /not/ remove the update button, and instead educate people in the >> process so that potentially dangerous changes are done properly (by >> defining baselines, a.k.a. updates in Monticello) and hence preserve the >> valuable ability to keep one's own image up-to-date. >> > > Mmh, it depends on how one considers images I guess. If the project can be > loaded based on a fresh image an packages (and configurations etc), images > are throwaway things. > Do I really have to defend image usage? Would you rebuild your laptop every night throwing away all your state? The synergy between the system's tools and its image is clear. Because the system operates on itself and provides persistence there is more ability and incentive to improve it. > > Using that approach (with the CI), one can recreate images easily. Okay, > it may mean a couple of minutes to rebuild but there are weird behaviors > when one messes with an image too much during development (as Ron commented > with change sets). > > Also, when does one updates? Updates on a fresh Pharo30 interest me. But > not on my dev image as there are a ton of packages loaded, some slices > packed on top to deal with some extra stuff. No wonder that updates on top > of that aren,'t going to fly. > Really? I regularly update my work image and it works well and I've lots loaded above it. If things break then fix them. Don't throw away value just because there are problems. That;s a race for the bottom that I see all too often in this community. It's the same refrain as "we should try to be as similar to the rest of the world as possible" and that leads to being the same as the rest of the world, which results in being redundant. > And Monticello is indeed super cool. Not always that cool with filtree:// > based repos but that is maybe because I do not grasp it all properly right > now (facing trouble with the metadata style files on merge with Git - > yes,filetree here, not gitfiletree - looking scary). > > > Phil > > >> >> -- >> best, >> Eliot >> > > -- best, Eliot

May 22, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Wanna to browse your code as a Disneyland ride?

by Tudor Girba

Nice! Doru On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 5:41 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > really really sexy! > Keep your great work. > > > On 22/5/14 17:37, Alexandre Bergel wrote: > >> Here is an early preview of what we are working on... >> https://vimeo.com/96091089 >> >> To be announced at ESUG... >> >> Cheers, >> Alexandre >> > > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

May 22, 2014

VM bug when loading from filetree repositories in Pharo 3

by Johan Brichau

Hi all, When loading filetree repositories using Metacello in Pharo3 with the latest published stable vm, you continuously hit this vm bug [1]. Since there is no end in sight to solve that problem in the vm, it would be good to work around the problem and change the Metacello code as per the changes I attach to this email The changes are to change this: reader := MCStReader on: fileStream. (defs := reader definitions) size <= 1 ifFalse: [ self error: 'we should be writing exactly 1 definition per file' ] ]. into this: reader := MCStReader on: fileStream. defs := reader definitions. defs size <= 1 ifFalse: [ self error: 'we should be writing exactly 1 definition per file' ] ]. This at least fixes the loading problem for everyone. @Dale: I can make a pull request for you but I'm not sure what branch corresponds to the Pharo 3 Cheers Johan [1] https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?11130

May 22, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Wanna to browse your code as a Disneyland ride?

by stepharo

really really sexy! Keep your great work. On 22/5/14 17:37, Alexandre Bergel wrote: > Here is an early preview of what we are working on... > https://vimeo.com/96091089 > > To be announced at ESUG... > > Cheers, > Alexandre

May 22, 2014

Wanna to browse your code as a Disneyland ride?

by Alexandre Bergel

Here is an early preview of what we are working on... https://vimeo.com/96091089 To be announced at ESUG... Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

May 22, 2014

Open position for a Permanent Assistant Professor in Computer Science and Robotics

by Noury Bouraqadi

Hi, We're hiring an associate professor who will work on computer science and robots, and we'd really like to have yet another Smalltalker join the team :-) Applicants should be citizens of the EU (few exceptions are possible such as Switzerland). Dead-line for applications : 23rd of June Application form can be requested from Mrs. Catouillard: +33 (0)3.27.71.25.36 â daniele.catouillard@minesâdouai.fr More info at: http://car.mines-douai.fr/2014/05/open-permanent-position/ Best, Noury -- http://twitter.com/#!/NouryBouraqadi http://car.mines-douai.fr/noury

May 22, 2014