- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] consideration of Smalltalk "DoIt"

by Sebastian Sastre

Having evaluate wont hurt but I would NOT remove the traditional do it For sentences with it, I would alternate between Evaluate 'Grid new' and remember that doIt is a message send and button/command like "select 'Grid new' and 'Do it' from the menu" some smalltalk IDEs can say "select 'Grid new' and press the 'Do it' button" sebastian o/ > On 15/07/2014, at 14:33, "Esteban A. Maringolo" <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I would use "Evaluate". And even go a little bit further, and propose > a rename of "DoIt" to "Evaluate". > > The command line handler is "EvaluateCommandLineHandler". > > Dolphin used "evaluate", it feels natural even for not-native English > speakers like me. > > Also, REPL stands for read-EVAL-print-loop. So eval is an widely > accepted term to run a chunk of code. > > Regards. > Esteban A. Maringolo > > > 2014-07-15 14:20 GMT-03:00 Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com>: >> >> Mostly I take for granted that "DoIt" has always been the way to evaluate >> things with Smalltalk, however I find it awkward to use in writing a >> tutorial. Some examples... * After saving, select "Grid new" and "DoIt" -- >> this sounds awkward, and even that you might need select the latter as well. >> * After saving, "Grid new" DoIt. -- doesn't read nice >> * After saving, DoIt to "Grid new." -- worst of all >> >> I'd feel better writing something like this... >> * After saving, evaluate "Grid new". >> but "evaluate" is not an item in the menus. I think actually many people >> talk this way with the implicit convention that "evaluate" means "DoIt". >> >> So first, does anyone have a good way to compose sentences using "DoIt". >> Second, how evil would it be to change the menus from "DoIt" to "Evaluate" >> and so avoid the implicit convention. >> >> cheers -ben > <dolphin-evaluate.png>

July 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Interactive Notebook

by stepharo

Thierry I can tell you that I got a demo made by gary chambers and this is impressive and all done in Pharo. In addition with the new text model, it will really change the situation. Stef On 15/7/14 13:33, Goubier Thierry wrote: > I'm scanning a bit among scientific / computation languages (including > GUIs) and I'd like to know if some work has been done on interactive > notebooks gui concepts? > > I'm thinking of something like: http://ipython.org/notebook.html > > I know that the Pharo text editing capabilities are not up to that > kind of job, but I'd like to know if some would be interested in being > able to interact via that kind of development environment. > > Thierry

July 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] consideration of Smalltalk "DoIt"

by Esteban A. Maringolo

I would use "Evaluate". And even go a little bit further, and propose a rename of "DoIt" to "Evaluate". The command line handler is "EvaluateCommandLineHandler". Dolphin used "evaluate", it feels natural even for not-native English speakers like me. Also, REPL stands for read-EVAL-print-loop. So eval is an widely accepted term to run a chunk of code. Regards. Esteban A. Maringolo 2014-07-15 14:20 GMT-03:00 Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com>: > > Mostly I take for granted that "DoIt" has always been the way to evaluate > things with Smalltalk, however I find it awkward to use in writing a > tutorial. Some examples... * After saving, select "Grid new" and "DoIt" -- > this sounds awkward, and even that you might need select the latter as well. > * After saving, "Grid new" DoIt. -- doesn't read nice > * After saving, DoIt to "Grid new." -- worst of all > > I'd feel better writing something like this... > * After saving, evaluate "Grid new". > but "evaluate" is not an item in the menus. I think actually many people > talk this way with the implicit convention that "evaluate" means "DoIt". > > So first, does anyone have a good way to compose sentences using "DoIt". > Second, how evil would it be to change the menus from "DoIt" to "Evaluate" > and so avoid the implicit convention. > > cheers -ben > > >

July 15, 2014

consideration of Smalltalk "DoIt"

by Ben Coman

Mostly I take for granted that "DoIt" has always been the way to evaluate things with Smalltalk, however I find it awkward to use in writing a tutorial. Some examples... * After saving, select "Grid new" and "DoIt" -- this sounds awkward, and even that you might need select the latter as well. * After saving, "Grid new" DoIt. -- doesn't read nice * After saving, DoIt to "Grid new." -- worst of all I'd feel better writing something like this... * After saving, evaluate "Grid new". but "evaluate" is not an item in the menus. I think actually many people talk this way with the implicit convention that "evaluate" means "DoIt". So first, does anyone have a good way to compose sentences using "DoIt". Second, how evil would it be to change the menus from "DoIt" to "Evaluate" and so avoid the implicit convention. cheers -ben

July 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Interactive Notebook

by Goubier Thierry

I've never seen that in VW. But your feedback is interesting; maybe there is something to look at. I wonder if looking at some of the GTPlayground stuff with another angle could be interesting (i.e. page approach) or simply study what could be done if we could capture a task by embedding morphs inside the text. I feel like the notebook concept in itself is poor in that you have to interact with the program objects via the command line (i.e. the language console; be it R or Python, or Mathlab) and that is certainly inferior to the ability to select and run anywhere, inspect, explore, playground stuff. Le 15/07/2014 17:21, Nicolas Cellier a Ã©crit : > We had this kind of workbook 20 years ago in VW with mathematical > formulae and graphics (plot) embedded. > What we did was to avoid continous scrolling of the whole document, but > rather have the plan of the document on the left pane of the notebook > (just an indented tree like word navigation mode), and the text on the > right pane for only the currently selected chapter (in a way, it's a lot > like the source code browser). This way, no need to compose very large > Text in Smalltalk (I also doubt our editors really scale). > Then we could output a static view in PostScript or LaTeX. > > The greatest limitation IMO was not really the UI, but the principle of > the Notebook itself: we soon needed to access the results of previous > chunks of code, and we implemented this with an environment (understand > some global variables). > From software quality POV, working with such global vars is very > disappointing and does not really scale either. > > The second limitation of the workbook is that, while it's very good for > small projects (like maybe we can have in school), it's not the right > tool for producing documents with a synthesis of the results, which > remain the main added value of humans, so which was what we were asked for. > > However I'm still curious how far we can go with those notebooks, > because the idea is seducing. Maybe it was our own usage which was bad... Thierry -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

July 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Interactive Notebook

by Nicolas Cellier

We had this kind of workbook 20 years ago in VW with mathematical formulae and graphics (plot) embedded. What we did was to avoid continous scrolling of the whole document, but rather have the plan of the document on the left pane of the notebook (just an indented tree like word navigation mode), and the text on the right pane for only the currently selected chapter (in a way, it's a lot like the source code browser). This way, no need to compose very large Text in Smalltalk (I also doubt our editors really scale). Then we could output a static view in PostScript or LaTeX. The greatest limitation IMO was not really the UI, but the principle of the Notebook itself: we soon needed to access the results of previous chunks of code, and we implemented this with an environment (understand some global variables). >From software quality POV, working with such global vars is very disappointing and does not really scale either. The second limitation of the workbook is that, while it's very good for small projects (like maybe we can have in school), it's not the right tool for producing documents with a synthesis of the results, which remain the main added value of humans, so which was what we were asked for. However I'm still curious how far we can go with those notebooks, because the idea is seducing. Maybe it was our own usage which was bad... 2014-07-15 15:31 GMT+02:00 Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr>: > > > Le 15/07/2014 15:19, Stefan Marr a Ã©crit : > > Hi: >> >> On 15 Jul 2014, at 13:33, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: >> >> I'm scanning a bit among scientific / computation languages (including >>> GUIs) and I'd like to know if some work has been done on interactive >>> notebooks gui concepts? >>> >>> Iâm thinking of something like: http://ipython.org/notebook.html >>> >> >> Just another example for R, based on knitr: http://ramnathv.github.io/ >> rNotebook/ >> > > Thanks (and in R). > > Thierry > -- > Thierry Goubier > CEA list > Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s > 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex > France > Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95 > >

July 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Interactive Notebook

by Goubier Thierry

Le 15/07/2014 15:19, Stefan Marr a Ã©crit : > Hi: > > On 15 Jul 2014, at 13:33, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: > >> I'm scanning a bit among scientific / computation languages (including GUIs) and I'd like to know if some work has been done on interactive notebooks gui concepts? >> >> Iâm thinking of something like: http://ipython.org/notebook.html > > Just another example for R, based on knitr: http://ramnathv.github.io/rNotebook/ Thanks (and in R). Thierry -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

July 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Interactive Notebook

by Stefan Marr

Hi: On 15 Jul 2014, at 13:33, Goubier Thierry <thierry.goubier(a)cea.fr> wrote: > I'm scanning a bit among scientific / computation languages (including GUIs) and I'd like to know if some work has been done on interactive notebooks gui concepts? > > Iâm thinking of something like: http://ipython.org/notebook.html Just another example for R, based on knitr: http://ramnathv.github.io/rNotebook/ Best regards Stefan -- Stefan Marr INRIA Lille - Nord Europe http://stefan-marr.de/research/

July 15, 2014

STON questions

by Christophe Demarey

Hi, I read the STON paper and the STON chapter in EnterprisePharo but I did not find answers to some questions: how do you tell STON to not serialize some variables of an object? is there a way to avoid the class tag? What I mean is that I would like a synthetic STON String. If a STON entry has a class tag, STON knows which class to instantiate. This class may also know which classes to instantiate for its i-var. In this case, the class tag may be omitted. Maybe I should redefine fromSton;, but in this case, is it possible to avoid a manual parsing of the string? is there a way to do an alias for an i-var (just like for the class name)? is there a way to skip the serialization of an i-var if its value is nil (or an empty collection)? Regards, Christophe.

July 15, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Interactive Notebook

by Goubier Thierry

Le 15/07/2014 14:05, Ben Coman a Ã©crit : > Goubier Thierry wrote: >> I'm scanning a bit among scientific / computation languages (including >> GUIs) and I'd like to know if some work has been done on interactive >> notebooks gui concepts? >> >> I'm thinking of something like: http://ipython.org/notebook.html >> >> I know that the Pharo text editing capabilities are not up to that >> kind of job, but I'd like to know if some would be interested in being >> able to interact via that kind of development environment. >> >> Thierry > I'd be very interested in that kind of feature. I'd imagine you have a > number of separate text areas in one workspace that are evaluated in > order of their origin. Yes, it seems to be the case in the example I was looking at. Sort of the recording of an interactive session with a terminal. Would be interesting to see if we can go back and edit. Only sad thing I see in the way it is presented: output is not part of the program. > I recommend you take MathCAD for a test drive. > http://www.ptc.com/product/mathcad/ I'll have a look, thanks! > cheers, Ben > > > > -- Thierry Goubier CEA list Laboratoire des Fondations des SystÃ¨mes Temps RÃ©el EmbarquÃ©s 91191 Gif sur Yvette Cedex France Phone/Fax: +33 (0) 1 69 08 32 92 / 83 95

July 15, 2014