- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Quitting the community

by Eliot Miranda

It is well to remember Marshall McLuhan, The Medium is the Message, the thesis of which is that the nature of any medium has more importance than the content if that medium in shaping its effects in the users of that medium. On the medium side, email is devoid of nuance, unless smattered with emoticons, themselves a very limited sub-medium that many of us employ only partially. It is /so/ common to see an escalation of hurt emerge from an email thread started by a misreading of an email that imputed offense when none was intended. On the message side, names are important. Sentences become incomprehensible if nouns are arbitrarily rebound. ValueHolder may not be the greatest name, just as apareille a photo is clumsier than camera, but we can't just change them to frotboggle or bungswallop just because they sound more poetic. ReactiveVariable is criticizes me on the basis that it is an object that contains a variable, not a variable itself, and garner misleading, /and/ that it is a renaming of an (albeit imperfectly) already named concept, ValueHolder, and if one doesn't want to unnecessarily break others' understanding and much older Pharo and non-Pharo code that uses it one is better leaving sleeping dogs lie. HTH Eliot (phone) On Aug 18, 2014, at 8:38 AM, Benjamin <benjamin.vanryseghem.pharo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hello guys, > > I am sending this email to explain why I am quiting the Pharo community, > as well as the Smalltalk community. > > I can not bear Stephane Ducasse's behavior anymore whether at a public > level or a private level. > > It seems that his ego is preventing him from being able to have a discussion > without overreacting, being agressive, or insulting. > > I can not approve how Stephane is constantly talking behind my back to unleash > his irrationnal wrath and to provide his very own version of the facts. > > I can not see how this can lead to a peaceful and respectful community > where we can all have fun building a future. > > Therefore I will not be part of this project anymore, since the way Stephane > is acting is taking away all the fun I can have interacting with all of you. > > It was a hard decision to take, but I can not be part of a community led > by someone whose behaviour is going against all my principles. > > I wish to all of you to have fun, and keep me in touch > if you want to have a beer someday ;) > > Ben

Aug. 19, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Stack size for compiled methods (issue 13854 Crash/hang on array access)

by Eliot Miranda

Hi Nicolai, the stack starts as deep as the method's number of temporaries, which is the sum of the number of arguments plus the number of temporary variables that can exist in the stack plus one if there are any closed-over temporary variables that need to be in an indirection vector. Then as execution proceeds the receiver and arguments are pushed on the stack, and are replaced by intermediate results by sends it by the create array bytecode. Any blocks within the method start with the sum of their number of arguments, their number of copied values (temp values they access read-only) plus their local temporaries. In the method and each block scope stack depth is the hence the sum of the number of temporaries plus the max execution depth. And the method's depth is the max of the method and that of any blocks within it. Then if that depth is 17 or greater it gets the LargeFrame flag set which means the VM allocates a 56 slot context, the compiler raising an error if the depth is greater than 56. HTH Eliot (phone) On Aug 18, 2014, at 11:32 PM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)web.de> wrote: > Hi, > > on what depends the stack size for a compiled method? > I try to figure out, why the old compiler and the opal compile generate different > compiled method headers. > I think this comes from a wrong stack size computed by opal, but I can not figure > out how the stack size is computed. > > Old Compiler > PolygonMorph>>#lineSegmentsDo: > header -> "primitive: 0 > numArgs: 1 > numTemps: 3 > numLiterals: 23 > frameSize: 56" > > Opal compiler: > PolygonMorph>>#lineSegmentsDo: > header -> "primitive: 0 > numArgs: 1 > numTemps: 3 > numLiterals: 23 > frameSize: 16" >

Aug. 19, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Quitting the community

by stepharo

Probably not but I do not know. Now our team should not be a place that you leave without saying bye and this affected me when ben left in end of May. > Yes, this is where it all began. For the record, the name change was my > idea, not Ben's. I didn't think it was controversial - more of a question. > As you can see, it was discussed on the mailing list and, seeing no dissent, > Ben and I pushed the change. I too was sorry to waste the time making the > change, and wished someone would've spoken up on the mailing list, but I > realize we can't read and respond to every mail, so I let it go and moved > on. But is this really what the whole fight is about?! > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Quitting-the-community-tp4773730p4773795.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >

Aug. 19, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Quitting the community

by S Krish

This reminds me of my 3 year stint in a French CAD firm, where I was witness to many a technical tiff between a senior director and a really fresh out of college engineer which will look as if its a personal ego fight. But at the end of the day both will pick their bags and go off to have a beer / dinner together and come back next morning as good as friends they ever were. It taught me in my middle age, arguments over work should never spill over to personal ego. But life is short and all of us carry ourselves the way we are conditioned...! What is right and wrong, is mostly not cast in stone, but when it becomes contentious, it is just ok to give experience the right of way.. On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 6:07 AM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > P.S. regardless.. about the subject, so, now > > Here's an example > > nil asValueHolder > > shall be refactored to > > nil asReactiveVariable > > ? > > sounds like a plan :) > ==== > > And yes, Ben, you are wrong, if you consider this as a personal attack. > This code smells, to say it politely. But i prefer to call it crap. > When i see such things, the only thing, which comes to my mind is: 'when > the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to treat everything as nail'. >

Aug. 19, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Quitting the community

by Igor Stasenko

P.S. regardless.. about the subject, so, now Here's an example nil asValueHolder shall be refactored to nil asReactiveVariable ? sounds like a plan :) ==== And yes, Ben, you are wrong, if you consider this as a personal attack. This code smells, to say it politely. But i prefer to call it crap. When i see such things, the only thing, which comes to my mind is: 'when the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to treat everything as nail'. But this is example to show you that when your college says "you're wrong" it don't actually means "i hate you and you should leave". You should probably learn to make a difference between "fundamentalist's hatred" towards bad code/design decisions, and "hatred based on personal basis". Because i do, and while i hate bad code, and can explode with curses & blasphemy, it doesn't means that i am targeting its author. No, it is just the code. I am really miss your company and your sense of humor. To my opinion, you was a part of what was making a great atmosphere in our team, at least for me. Too bad, that you decided to leave, instead of standing and fighting, defending your opinion and proving it right. Because this is what i would do, considering the amount of energy i put into it, and based on honest and strong will to make it even better. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Aug. 19, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Quitting the community

by Sean P. DeNigris

philippeback wrote > This thread is also useful and Nice raises the legacy issue: > http://forum.world.st/COTDC-108-NewValueHolder-td4738066.html Yes, this is where it all began. For the record, the name change was my idea, not Ben's. I didn't think it was controversial - more of a question. As you can see, it was discussed on the mailing list and, seeing no dissent, Ben and I pushed the change. I too was sorry to waste the time making the change, and wished someone would've spoken up on the mailing list, but I realize we can't read and respond to every mail, so I let it go and moved on. But is this really what the whole fight is about?! ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Quitting-the-community-tp4773730p4773795.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 19, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Quitting the community

by Igor Stasenko

Ben, there is a lot more positive way to say bye.. As life goes on, i hope, one day you will learn how to do it. I can't believe that subtle disagreement, especially on technical basis (like naming convention) could lead you to such decision. Unless it is your own decision, then it (as well as anything else) can serve as a good excuse. But hey.. lets be real.. Really, Ben, you could just come one day and say: - you know guys, i am fed up with all of you and Pharo.. i wanna leave and look and try something else. Because you cannot bet, that you will never cross the roads with one or another guy you were working with, for the rest of your life.. and the last thing you want at such moment, is the guy shooting at you at sight. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Aug. 18, 2014

Stack size for compiled methods (issue 13854 Crash/hang on array access)

by Nicolai Hess

Hi, on what depends the stack size for a compiled method? I try to figure out, why the old compiler and the opal compile generate different compiled method headers. I think this comes from a wrong stack size computed by opal, but I can not figure out how the stack size is computed. Old Compiler PolygonMorph>>#lineSegmentsDo: header -> "primitive: 0 numArgs: 1 numTemps: 3 numLiterals: 23 frameSize: 56" Opal compiler: PolygonMorph>>#lineSegmentsDo: header -> "primitive: 0 numArgs: 1 numTemps: 3 numLiterals: 23 frameSize: 16"

Aug. 18, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Quitting the community

by phil＠highoctane.be

On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 9:58 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > @ Phil > > Yes, I am sad as well, this is not how it should be. I really liked each > of them a lot. > Now, whenever people collaborate there will be conflicts, this is > inevitable. A conflict is often complex, has always two sides to it, and a > long history (it is not just about one thing right now, most of the history > is unknown to us, lots of personal things come into play as well). How > conflicts are dealt with (or left festering) is what counts. > haro is not about one person, it is an open source community. It is not > good to generalise and hold the community hostage, or hurt it deliberately > - this goes against the very thing you contributed selflessly to in the > first place. > > We have a rudimentary mechanism to deal with conflicts, it is called the > board: > > <from the website> > > The board > > Pharo has a board composed of Marcus Denker, Stephane Ducasse, Sven Van > Caekenberghe, Tudor GÃ®rba and Esteban Lorenzano. > > The role of the board is to make decisions if in the future the community > can't decide on a course of action. > > </from the website> > > Even if the conflict involves a board member, the board should play its > role. If necessary, individual board members can be contacted. This has not > happened. > Let's remember that for the next case. > > > @ Ben > > I am sad and sorry about you leaving. You will be missed and I thank you > for all you did. I hope that maybe one day we will hear from you again. > > I remember that young student coming in with all this energy, writing a > new code browser, Nautilus, from scratch, and doing Spec along the way - it > was a herculean task. You did great work and we all benefit from it. > > > @ Camillo > > Iden ditto: you leaving makes me really sad and I will miss you - thank > you for everything you did. I hope we'll meet again. > > I have fond memories about meeting you during sprints starting in the old > INRIA building. Your enthusiasm was really contagious, there was no task > you would not want to tackle. You rewrote the book for Pharo for command > line handling, issue tracking, issue validation, git integration, the eye > inspector, source/change file compaction and so much more. You have a great > sense of good design, we're all better for it. > > > Peace, > > Sven > > On 18 Aug 2014, at 11:55, phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: > > > I'd say that we now have: > > > > Camillo - pissed off to death > > Ben - same > > Nico - gone > > > > There is something amiss there. > > > > These people are significant contributors and made the system move > forward in new and much needed directions (Zeroconf/CommandLine, Spec, > Amber). > > > > Pissing them off is really a bad approach, no matter why/how/... Get the > house in order please and stop the ego trips. Yelling at people/each other > just doesn't work and doesn't help. Try that at your cat. > > > > Oh, yeah, it helps in pushing great people to other communities... As we > needed that. > > > > And now, I am feeling sad. > > > > Phil > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> > wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > > > Thanks for letting us know. > > > > I am sorry you feel this way, but I believe your presentation of the > situation is both unfair and unfortunate. You are obviously referring to > issues that are of personal nature, and as outsiders we are left with only > an ugly feeling without being able to either understand or fix anything. > > > > I was actually having fun until your email, and as far as I can tell, > others were having fun as well. I am not sure what the intention of your > email was, but at least for me, your mail did manage to spoil the fun for a > second. > > > > I appreciate the work you put in Pharo, I respect your decision, but I > do not sympathize with your behavior. > > > > Good luck, > > Doru > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 8:38 AM, Benjamin < > benjamin.vanryseghem.pharo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hello guys, > > > > I am sending this email to explain why I am quiting the Pharo community, > > as well as the Smalltalk community. > > > > I can not bear Stephane Ducasse's behavior anymore whether at a public > > level or a private level. > > > > It seems that his ego is preventing him from being able to have a > discussion > > without overreacting, being agressive, or insulting. > > > > I can not approve how Stephane is constantly talking behind my back to > unleash > > his irrationnal wrath and to provide his very own version of the facts. > > > > I can not see how this can lead to a peaceful and respectful community > > where we can all have fun building a future. > > > > Therefore I will not be part of this project anymore, since the way > Stephane > > is acting is taking away all the fun I can have interacting with all of > you. > > > > It was a hard decision to take, but I can not be part of a community led > > by someone whose behaviour is going against all my principles. > > > > I wish to all of you to have fun, and keep me in touch > > if you want to have a beer someday ;) > > > > Ben > > > > > > > > -- > > www.tudorgirba.com > > > > "Every thing has its own flow" > > > > >

Aug. 18, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Quitting the community

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

@ Phil Yes, I am sad as well, this is not how it should be. I really liked each of them a lot. Now, whenever people collaborate there will be conflicts, this is inevitable. A conflict is often complex, has always two sides to it, and a long history (it is not just about one thing right now, most of the history is unknown to us, lots of personal things come into play as well). How conflicts are dealt with (or left festering) is what counts. Pharo is not about one person, it is an open source community. It is not good to generalise and hold the community hostage, or hurt it deliberately - this goes against the very thing you contributed selflessly to in the first place. We have a rudimentary mechanism to deal with conflicts, it is called the board: <from the website> The board Pharo has a board composed of Marcus Denker, Stephane Ducasse, Sven Van Caekenberghe, Tudor GÃ®rba and Esteban Lorenzano. The role of the board is to make decisions if in the future the community can't decide on a course of action. </from the website> Even if the conflict involves a board member, the board should play its role. If necessary, individual board members can be contacted. This has not happened. @ Ben I am sad and sorry about you leaving. You will be missed and I thank you for all you did. I hope that maybe one day we will hear from you again. I remember that young student coming in with all this energy, writing a new code browser, Nautilus, from scratch, and doing Spec along the way - it was a herculean task. You did great work and we all benefit from it. @ Camillo Iden ditto: you leaving makes me really sad and I will miss you - thank you for everything you did. I hope we'll meet again. I have fond memories about meeting you during sprints starting in the old INRIA building. Your enthusiasm was really contagious, there was no task you would not want to tackle. You rewrote the book for Pharo for command line handling, issue tracking, issue validation, git integration, the eye inspector, source/change file compaction and so much more. You have a great sense of good design, we're all better for it. Peace, Sven On 18 Aug 2014, at 11:55, phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: > I'd say that we now have: > > Camillo - pissed off to death > Ben - same > Nico - gone > > There is something amiss there. > > These people are significant contributors and made the system move forward in new and much needed directions (Zeroconf/CommandLine, Spec, Amber). > > Pissing them off is really a bad approach, no matter why/how/... Get the house in order please and stop the ego trips. Yelling at people/each other just doesn't work and doesn't help. Try that at your cat. > > Oh, yeah, it helps in pushing great people to other communities... As we needed that. > > And now, I am feeling sad. > > Phil > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Hi Ben, > > Thanks for letting us know. > > I am sorry you feel this way, but I believe your presentation of the situation is both unfair and unfortunate. You are obviously referring to issues that are of personal nature, and as outsiders we are left with only an ugly feeling without being able to either understand or fix anything. > > I was actually having fun until your email, and as far as I can tell, others were having fun as well. I am not sure what the intention of your email was, but at least for me, your mail did manage to spoil the fun for a second. > > I appreciate the work you put in Pharo, I respect your decision, but I do not sympathize with your behavior. > > Good luck, > Doru > > > > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 8:38 AM, Benjamin <benjamin.vanryseghem.pharo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hello guys, > > I am sending this email to explain why I am quiting the Pharo community, > as well as the Smalltalk community. > > I can not bear Stephane Ducasse's behavior anymore whether at a public > level or a private level. > > It seems that his ego is preventing him from being able to have a discussion > without overreacting, being agressive, or insulting. > > I can not approve how Stephane is constantly talking behind my back to unleash > his irrationnal wrath and to provide his very own version of the facts. > > I can not see how this can lead to a peaceful and respectful community > where we can all have fun building a future. > > Therefore I will not be part of this project anymore, since the way Stephane > is acting is taking away all the fun I can have interacting with all of you. > > It was a hard decision to take, but I can not be part of a community led > by someone whose behaviour is going against all my principles. > > I wish to all of you to have fun, and keep me in touch > if you want to have a beer someday ;) > > Ben > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing has its own flow" >

Aug. 18, 2014