- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] First additions to GT-Inspector

by stepharo

Would it be possible to have 'raw' instead of state? Stef > I'll make a new version to integrate. > > > Cheers, > Andrei > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:52 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com > <mailto:tudor@tudorgirba.com>> wrote: > > Done! > > Doru > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe > <sven(a)stfx.eu <mailto:sven@stfx.eu>> wrote: > > > On 03 Oct 2014, at 15:23, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com > <mailto:tudor@tudorgirba.com>> wrote: > > > Great. I checked it quickly and it looks great. I added you > to the Moose team. Could you please commit directly in the repo? > > Done, you'll have to merge my version since it is two commits > behind. > > > Doru > > > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:17 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe > <sven(a)stfx.eu <mailto:sven@stfx.eu>> wrote: > > I made my first additions/changes to GT-Inspector: > > > > === > > Name: GT-InspectorExtensions-Core-SvenVanCaekenberghe.54 > > Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe > > Time: 3 October 2014, 3:03:17.252107 pm > > UUID: 853cfe8d-314c-4eac-ad67-8c6eff2b4f83 > > Ancestors: GT-InspectorExtensions-Core-TudorGirba.53 > > > > Customized GT-Inspector for Integer, Float and Character > > === > > > > MCZ attached: > > > > > > > > > > I made it so that 'State' shows slots only (if any) and > takes precedence. > > > > I added an 'Integer' tab to Integer with decimal, hex, > octal, binary and optional character aspects. > > > > I added a 'Float' tab to Float with (binary, base 2) > significant and exponent (self = significant * (2 ** > exponent)) [the old sign field was not needed since > significant is signed already), while making the 'State' show > the 2 indexed slots (which is more correct IMHO). > > > > I added a 'Character' tab with self, codepoint and unicode > aspects. > > > > Obviously this has to be iterated upon. I am already very > happy that I could figure out how to do this. Much more from > the old Eye inspectors will follow. > > > > Sven > > > > PS1: Implementing this, I sense that we might need an option > so that a field can show some label for its value, while > clicking further on it would continue on something else > (obviously related), differently field by field. > > > > PS2: Is is necessary/useful for the States fields in > #gtInspectorVariableValuePairs to be a Set instead of > something that preserves the order ? > > > > > > > > -- > > www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com> > > > > "Every thing has its own flow" > > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com> > > "Every thing has its own flow" > >

Oct. 3, 2014

For a DBMS roadmap

by stepharo

so a question: could we have a clear evaluation of the situation? What should be done? Who could write a clear roadmap on DBMS so that we can discuss internally and see what we can do in the next 6 months - Glorp? should be updated? - posgres drivers? - DBXTalk (is is useful or should it not be better to focus on native drivers. Stef

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by Tudor Girba

Hi, The intention of the message of Esteban is to urge people to be positive. Nothing else. Keep in mind that email is a rather poor environment and simply ask yourself before sending a message if it can have a chance of leading to something better. Positive does not mean no criticism. On the contrary. We need criticism to improve. At the same time, we can always improve the way we deliver criticism. Let's just invest a bit in this positiveness and you will see how people will smile more and more things will get done :) Cheers, Doru On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Iâm writing this because Iâm sad about what is happening in this list. > Iâm seeing a lot of general negativity and non constructive ways to > discuss things. > Iâm also seeing more and more people using Pharo for their particular > interests (which is of course a good thing) but less and less people who > contribute back to Pharo. > Finally, Iâm seeing more frequently an attitude of âcustomerâ, more than > the conviction than this, Pharo, is also yoursâ¦ > > Please people, we (the pharo âcoreâ team) cannot do everything. We do not > have the manpower or the resources to hire manpower. We would like, but we > just do not have the resources (is already a blessing that we can work on > this, for now: INRIA is paying, but what it pays is *research*, not âpharo > the languageâ, so this is a collateral advantageâ¦.) > > So, having an OPEN SOURCE project, with limited resources means that there > is a lot of things that depend on the community. > It depends on the community not just to fix, but to enlarge the ecosystem > in general too. > > So, I refuse to believe that we cannot be a cool and helpful community. > I refuse to believe that general negativity and bad humor can overcome the > joy of participating in this collective effort. > > So, here some recommendations for enhance the way we participate: > > - Be positive. Just âthis is a s**tâ does not help. Even if it is. > - Be propositional. Just âthis is a s**tâ, and not telling what you > want/prefer does not help. > - Be proactive. Just âthis is a s**tâ, and not report, discuss and (at > least time to time) provide a fix/enhancement does not help. > > In conclusion: not helping does not help :) > After all, this is the âpharo-devâ list. I mean, the list of people > wanting to participate from this great, community effort. > > cheers, > Esteban, still grateful of belonging to this community > > > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

Oct. 3, 2014

Updates for Pharo4

by Max Leske

I fixed a couple of issues and failing tests for Pharo4. Thereâs also a couple of new things (e.g. test cases for Context instead of MethodContext) that should be integrated into Pharo4. Cheers, Max

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by Hilaire

I agree 100% with Thierry. I wrote and complain about it months ago: we need consolidation in the newly developed stuff we have. So it may mean to slow down and polishing. Because from my point of view, I don't understand where is moving Pharo, but true it is moving. Hilaire Le 03/10/2014 17:07, Thierry Goubier a Ã©crit : > unsatisfying "now" situation. I'll carefully evaluate what new stuff is > integrated. New stuff I look to see if they are usable (libcgit > integration, TxText) and what I see is stuff that builds on unstable core > libs extensions (NativeBoost, Athens) on top of an already unstable version > (4.0), and I'm really not impressed by the software development process. > > The end result is, when I see a bug, I'm already at least two versions > behind you guys... so there's nothing worth reporting. There is some > progress on the way things are being done (thanks Marcus for doing the > deprecation API backporting on 3.0) and not much on others (and I speak of > methodology, not of new features being added on). > > If you have the feeling that I don't contribute the way I should or the way > you would like, step back and ask yourself if this is not my "unspoken" way > of me saying that I don't find a way to contribute, or that contributing > effectively is too costly. > > And look! This is not a matter of resources, but maybe a matter of slowing > down a bit, so that the poor community members with limited resources like > me that are not full time on Pharo 4.0 development may catch up :) And > please, no more rejection of feedback, even negative. It just gives me the > feeling you are overstreched, and that Pharo has a problem setting its > goals. -- Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu iStoa - http://istoa.drgeo.eu

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by stepharo

Thanks Hilaire. Yes you know it pretty well being a producer is sometimes tiring :) Stef > Le 03/10/2014 13:44, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : >> Iâm writing this because Iâm sad about what is happening in this list. > Hi Esteban, > > Don't be sad about negativity. I think it is a sign of good health for > Pharo. First of all it is a feedback, it should raise a red flag > somewhere: some expectation is not met, or an expectation for even > better quality. > Then it is a manifestation of hight interest and expectation regarding > Pharo. After all the worst will be to ignore Pharo. > > Of course negative feedback are hard to manage emotionally, because > those feedbacks can be improperly emotionally expressed. I guess with > time people get thick skin to manage it. > > With Pharo becoming successful, the ratio of pure consumer will raise > exponentially, there is nothing you can do with that, but well the net > number of contributors will raise also... and still your number should > not be that bad because your consumers are developers. (if you compare > with DrGeo user, most are pure consumers) > > Hilaire >

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by Esteban A. Maringolo

2014-10-03 16:42 GMT-03:00 stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr>: >> You keep doing your great job, but accept that we, outside of the >> internal, core, revolutionary research being made, might have mundane >> necessities. That on the daily basis have more importance than a >> futuristic 128bit manycore vm that kicks JVM's ass :D > > But we even not working on that. JUST PLAIN BUGS. Please grant me a small exaggeration (which was the case). > and if everybody would spend 1 hour per week reviewing and improving some > libraries then we would have more impact. I am. More and more as I'm getting used to the libraries and to the contribution process (which still is centralized). However you can't count with everybody contributing to make Pharo a success. It won't happen to Pharo, as it wont happen anywhere else. Wikipedia isn't a success because everybody contributes, it is a success because there is a dedicated/loyal group of contributors that accounts for 80% of the material published. Pareto principle end to end. > Still Pharo is yours not mine. Sorry, but as others said, I neither share that feeling. And I it isn't something negative to me. I feel part of the community, and as I publish fixes or minor improvements I begin to be part of the contributors. Only being part of the Association or Consortium is the only, reasonable way, of feeling that, and even so I can anticipate myself I won't feel that. >> Please consider than USING Pharo is a way to contribute to it. > yes but we are small and using is not enough Not enough, but don't disregard your users! Take the example mentioned above above Wikipedia. As the user base grows, the motivation for public contributions grows too. And also grows the funding. It's a virtuous circle. >> Even if you had infinite manpower but no one uses it, it would be >> worthless. > Give me 2 Millions Euros and you will see > that lot of people will come and use it. If I had it I'd totally give it, but unfortunately I don't have it. However I don't think it is only about that. Many ventures fail with even more money. With more resources, you would make Pharo better/awesome..., but money only don't create the market nor the demand. Even lobbyists need more money than that to gain traction. Best regards! Esteban A. Maringolo

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by stepharo

Thanks alain. Here is my metaphor: I help myself and share my "soup of stones" with people that want to improve our soup of stones. At the end our soup may be great. Another way to present my metaphor is: "focus on what you need and change the system (and send us fixes/enhancements) on what you need. Because if you do not do it, then why a guy not needing it would need to spend time." ah to grow the market.... well Spur, 64 bits, better FFI, decent events, automated build for VM and many many other things are already in the pipeline and (none of them is about research :) you can trust me on that Stef On 3/10/14 21:24, Alain Rastoul wrote: > Le 03/10/2014 13:44, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : >> Hi, >> >> Iâm writing this because Iâm sad about what is happening in this list. >> Iâm seeing a lot of general negativity and non constructive ways to >> discuss things. >> Iâm also seeing more and more people using Pharo for their particular >> interests (which is of course a good thing) but less and less people >> who contribute back to Pharo. >> Finally, Iâm seeing more frequently an attitude of âcustomerâ, more >> than the conviction than this, Pharo, is also yoursâ¦ >> >> Please people, we (the pharo âcoreâ team) cannot do everything. We do >> not have the manpower or the resources to hire manpower. We would >> like, but we just do not have the resources (is already a blessing >> that we can work on this, for now: INRIA is paying, but what it pays >> is *research*, not âpharo the languageâ, so this is a collateral >> advantageâ¦.) >> >> So, having an OPEN SOURCE project, with limited resources means that >> there is a lot of things that depend on the community. >> It depends on the community not just to fix, but to enlarge the >> ecosystem in general too. >> >> So, I refuse to believe that we cannot be a cool and helpful community. >> I refuse to believe that general negativity and bad humor can >> overcome the joy of participating in this collective effort. >> >> So, here some recommendations for enhance the way we participate: >> >> - Be positive. Just âthis is a s**tâ does not help. Even if it is. >> - Be propositional. Just âthis is a s**tâ, and not telling what you >> want/prefer does not help. >> - Be proactive. Just âthis is a s**tâ, and not report, discuss and >> (at least time to time) provide a fix/enhancement does not help. >> >> In conclusion: not helping does not help :) >> After all, this is the âpharo-devâ list. I mean, the list of people >> wanting to participate from this great, community effort. >> >> cheers, >> Esteban, still grateful of belonging to this community >> >> >> >> > Hi Esteban, > > Sorry for the long response, but I (like others) feel concerned about > your post. > I don't see any "negativity" in this forum, I don't understand why you > are saying that, but > I understand your point of view about people not contributing, being > one of them. > I think you are too pessimistic (please, drink 2, 3 beers with > friends, one for me please - ... cheers :) - > talk or forget about what is boring you and then get back with strength). > Things are moving slowly, but they are moving in the good direction and > thanks to the *dictatorship* leading of Pharo here ;-) , and thanks to > people leading > projects with Pharo. > I think you have to consider that lot of people (may be I'm wrong, and > it is just me ?) > are here because they like and share the pharo vision of software > developmnent, > but have to work for a company just to make a living. > My company is very focused on productivity and immediate gain. > Efficiency against efficacity like our boss "explained" to us... > it has some good counterparts like paying my living and my harley :) , > and bad ones, like > me not liking most of the job I have to do daily, and not agreeing > with the "vision" of the company > I live with that for now, I ride my bike very often :). > Their opinions may looks negative but they are not. > To me, people of the rmod team are lucky guys, they work on a sexy > technology. > May be they feel alone but they are not, may be this technology will > fail in next 10 years (I don't think so) > but, well, that's life, there will be a reason. Experience is good. > I'm still trying to make some smalltalk evangelism (is it > goodenglish?) around me at work, > and slowly getting people into considering smalltalk (and pharo) as a > serious technology > (for squeak it was just impossible, sorry), but have not so much time > to contribute seriously > (and as Pharo moves quite quickly, it requires quite some time > just to keeps up to date to last versions). > I saw some posts about Glorp, databases and orm (some of my current > working skills) and > consider getting into this just to help, but on the other hand > I have some other personal projects I would like to complete with Pharo. > I may look selfish, but that's another point here: Pharo has to have > more project going on to succeed. > "Pharo's "success stories" is IMHO ***very*** important - > and marketing is *****very***** important > beeing a developper, I feel a bit sad saying that but that's the > f***g reality. > Interesting coincidence, I had a discussion today with a collegue about > bad succeeding and good falling technologies (like javascript and > smaltalk in our talks)... > > Just to say keep on the good stuff please. > And I stop here. > > Regards , > > Alain > > > > >

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by stepharo

> TxText will happen. It's too important to leave it unhappening :). Oh yes like OSWindow, GTToolkit and many other things. :) Stef

Oct. 3, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by stepharo

On 3/10/14 18:56, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand wrote: > > > I have the same feeling. "Pharo is yours, but I take the main > decisions". Actually it feels a little bit insulting, I am using Pharo > since several years in a domain which nobody works with Smalltalk, and > never got a survey request (except for some software engineering > research). And I bet there are people not in the Pharo/Moose/Seaside > team that didn't received any attention and they are doing significant > experiences. You are paranoid. :) We know well people in Moose and Seaside and they know that they can talk to us. Just ask and we listen. I do not think that people understand what is our life. We are not a team working on Pharo. We are a research team fighting to get some time to push Pharo and Inria gives us some money to pay engineers like igor, and esteban. > Why they don't write here? I suspect one of the reasons is Pharo is > being too motivated by software enineering research and not enough > interest for other giant domains like 3D, finance, expert systems, > HPC, etc. People perceive this. We are NOT DOING RESEARCH IN SOFTWARE ENGINEERING IN PHARO. Repeat after me. We are NOT DOING RESEARCH IN SOFTWARE ENGINEERING IN PHARO. We are just maintaining it and making sure that we can have a decent compiler and infrastructure to build other systems. How could we build finance, HPC, 3d without been experts. Do not dream there are full team of researchers at Inria building real 3d engines. Why would we go there? Seriously. > > > > I see years passing but money never comes. You cannot expect big > funding if you keep doing things the same as always. Exactly and do not dream about investors. Now we work hard to set the consortium. If at the end of the journey, people do not sponsor or participate then we will close it. and we will look back and say that we did our best. We create an autonomous entity that can manage Pharo but if we cannot pay an engineer with it then this is ok too. But people should not complain that open-source Pharo does not work. We do not have mozilla or google behind us and if individuals do not understand that they can get an impact = Pharo is yours then what can we do. Just continue slower with less engineers. > > > > Yes, please stop rejecting feedback that you won't like. We do not reject it. But I can say that you can stop rejecting our feedback if you do not like it too :) My feedback is: WE FIGHT EVERY SINGLE DAY TO GET RESOURCES IN PHARO. WE SPEND LOT OF ENERGY TO MAKE IT HAPPENING. and we could do something else in our life and get paid the same. So start thinking to help yourself because this is the best way to build the pharo you need and we do not need the same. > Cheers, > > HernÃ¡n

Oct. 3, 2014