- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues

by Tudor Girba

If I understand correctly, you would want a way to close panes. Correct? Doru On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 04 Oct 2014, at 09:06, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > > > > > On 04 Oct 2014, at 07:45, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> From the feedback so far, I could not the following issues: > >> > >> - menus for copy/paste/cut (which I still wonder why they need to exist > for a developer, but we will add them) > >> - possibility of save/open > >> - Cmd+g instead of Cmd+o (already fixed) > >> - position of the cursor is sometimes messed up > >> - possibility to change the title of the Playground > >> - possibility to group the windows (this will likely not be fixed in > the same way) > >> (did I miss any?) > >> - icons and text background are not ready for the dark theme > >> > >> Did I miss anything? Could the people that want to see any of these > issues done open tickets for them? > > > > I know you can resize with the widget at the bottom, but I would like an > option to go back to the original playground view, without one inspector > open at the right. This is the third time I ask, and I noticed there were > others asking it as well. It could be something hidden like shift/option > click on the first circle, but a simple X on the column would be better. > > > > Why ? Because a playground/workspace is used as a notebook to remember > things, I want it to be 'clean'. The same is true for an inspector. > Sometimes it is my reference to say a server that remains open a long time. > I want it to be clean and as small as possible. > > > > Please, please, please ;-) > > +1 > > > > >> Cheers, > >> Doru > >> > >> -- > >> www.tudorgirba.com > >> > >> "Every thing has its own flow" > > > > > > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

Oct. 4, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 04 Oct 2014, at 09:06, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > > On 04 Oct 2014, at 07:45, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> From the feedback so far, I could not the following issues: >> >> - menus for copy/paste/cut (which I still wonder why they need to exist for a developer, but we will add them) >> - possibility of save/open >> - Cmd+g instead of Cmd+o (already fixed) >> - position of the cursor is sometimes messed up >> - possibility to change the title of the Playground >> - possibility to group the windows (this will likely not be fixed in the same way) >> (did I miss any?) >> - icons and text background are not ready for the dark theme >> >> Did I miss anything? Could the people that want to see any of these issues done open tickets for them? > > I know you can resize with the widget at the bottom, but I would like an option to go back to the original playground view, without one inspector open at the right. This is the third time I ask, and I noticed there were others asking it as well. It could be something hidden like shift/option click on the first circle, but a simple X on the column would be better. > > Why ? Because a playground/workspace is used as a notebook to remember things, I want it to be 'clean'. The same is true for an inspector. Sometimes it is my reference to say a server that remains open a long time. I want it to be clean and as small as possible. > > Please, please, please ;-) +1 > >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Every thing has its own flow" > >

Oct. 4, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] gt issues

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 04 Oct 2014, at 07:45, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Hi, > > From the feedback so far, I could not the following issues: > > - menus for copy/paste/cut (which I still wonder why they need to exist for a developer, but we will add them) > - possibility of save/open > - Cmd+g instead of Cmd+o (already fixed) > - position of the cursor is sometimes messed up > - possibility to change the title of the Playground > - possibility to group the windows (this will likely not be fixed in the same way) > (did I miss any?) > - icons and text background are not ready for the dark theme > > Did I miss anything? Could the people that want to see any of these issues done open tickets for them? I know you can resize with the widget at the bottom, but I would like an option to go back to the original playground view, without one inspector open at the right. This is the third time I ask, and I noticed there were others asking it as well. It could be something hidden like shift/option click on the first circle, but a simple X on the column would be better. Why ? Because a playground/workspace is used as a notebook to remember things, I want it to be 'clean'. The same is true for an inspector. Sometimes it is my reference to say a server that remains open a long time. I want it to be clean and as small as possible. Please, please, please ;-) > Cheers, > Doru > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing has its own flow"

Oct. 4, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] First additions to GT-Inspector

by Esteban Lorenzano

'Structure' is large :P > On 04 Oct 2014, at 08:58, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > Raw is good, but what about 'Structure' ? > AFAIU, it is the State/Structure that is used for the tree view, right ? > > On 03 Oct 2014, at 22:50, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > >> Yes, I like "Raw". Thanks for the ping:). >> >> Anyone against "Raw"? >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 10:36 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >> Would it be possible to have 'raw' instead of state? >> >> Stef >> >> >>> I'll make a new version to integrate. >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Andrei >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:52 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >>> Done! >>> >>> Doru >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >>> >>> On 03 Oct 2014, at 15:23, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Great. I checked it quickly and it looks great. I added you to the Moose team. Could you please commit directly in the repo? >>> >>> Done, you'll have to merge my version since it is two commits behind. >>> >>>> Doru >>>> >>>> On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:17 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >>>> I made my first additions/changes to GT-Inspector: >>>> >>>> === >>>> Name: GT-InspectorExtensions-Core-SvenVanCaekenberghe.54 >>>> Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe >>>> Time: 3 October 2014, 3:03:17.252107 pm >>>> UUID: 853cfe8d-314c-4eac-ad67-8c6eff2b4f83 >>>> Ancestors: GT-InspectorExtensions-Core-TudorGirba.53 >>>> >>>> Customized GT-Inspector for Integer, Float and Character >>>> === >>>> >>>> MCZ attached: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I made it so that 'State' shows slots only (if any) and takes precedence. >>>> >>>> I added an 'Integer' tab to Integer with decimal, hex, octal, binary and optional character aspects. >>>> >>>> I added a 'Float' tab to Float with (binary, base 2) significant and exponent (self = significant * (2 ** exponent)) [the old sign field was not needed since significant is signed already), while making the 'State' show the 2 indexed slots (which is more correct IMHO). >>>> >>>> I added a 'Character' tab with self, codepoint and unicode aspects. >>>> >>>> Obviously this has to be iterated upon. I am already very happy that I could figure out how to do this. Much more from the old Eye inspectors will follow. >>>> >>>> Sven >>>> >>>> PS1: Implementing this, I sense that we might need an option so that a field can show some label for its value, while clicking further on it would continue on something else (obviously related), differently field by field. >>>> >>>> PS2: Is is necessary/useful for the States fields in #gtInspectorVariableValuePairs to be a Set instead of something that preserves the order ? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>> >>>> "Every thing has its own flow" >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> >>> "Every thing has its own flow" >>> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Every thing has its own flow" > >

Oct. 4, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] First additions to GT-Inspector

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Raw is good, but what about 'Structure' ? AFAIU, it is the State/Structure that is used for the tree view, right ? On 03 Oct 2014, at 22:50, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Yes, I like "Raw". Thanks for the ping:). > > Anyone against "Raw"? > > Cheers, > Doru > > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 10:36 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > Would it be possible to have 'raw' instead of state? > > Stef > > >> I'll make a new version to integrate. >> >> >> Cheers, >> Andrei >> >> On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:52 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >> Done! >> >> Doru >> >> On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> >> On 03 Oct 2014, at 15:23, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >> >> > Great. I checked it quickly and it looks great. I added you to the Moose team. Could you please commit directly in the repo? >> >> Done, you'll have to merge my version since it is two commits behind. >> >> > Doru >> > >> > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:17 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> > I made my first additions/changes to GT-Inspector: >> > >> > === >> > Name: GT-InspectorExtensions-Core-SvenVanCaekenberghe.54 >> > Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe >> > Time: 3 October 2014, 3:03:17.252107 pm >> > UUID: 853cfe8d-314c-4eac-ad67-8c6eff2b4f83 >> > Ancestors: GT-InspectorExtensions-Core-TudorGirba.53 >> > >> > Customized GT-Inspector for Integer, Float and Character >> > === >> > >> > MCZ attached: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > I made it so that 'State' shows slots only (if any) and takes precedence. >> > >> > I added an 'Integer' tab to Integer with decimal, hex, octal, binary and optional character aspects. >> > >> > I added a 'Float' tab to Float with (binary, base 2) significant and exponent (self = significant * (2 ** exponent)) [the old sign field was not needed since significant is signed already), while making the 'State' show the 2 indexed slots (which is more correct IMHO). >> > >> > I added a 'Character' tab with self, codepoint and unicode aspects. >> > >> > Obviously this has to be iterated upon. I am already very happy that I could figure out how to do this. Much more from the old Eye inspectors will follow. >> > >> > Sven >> > >> > PS1: Implementing this, I sense that we might need an option so that a field can show some label for its value, while clicking further on it would continue on something else (obviously related), differently field by field. >> > >> > PS2: Is is necessary/useful for the States fields in #gtInspectorVariableValuePairs to be a Set instead of something that preserves the order ? >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > www.tudorgirba.com >> > >> > "Every thing has its own flow" >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Every thing has its own flow" >> > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing has its own flow"

Oct. 4, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by kilon alios

exactly and most of us are aware of these tools and the fact that are very useful because a) we are registered in the moose mailing list b) because you have posted a few demonstrations videos about their use here, in the moose mailing list and in tweeter. I am very excited that you push pharo development forward and can't wait to see what more surprises you have in store for us. My thread which I think it was blown out of proportions was just a request for clarifications and some criticism on the tool itself. I never demanded that the tool should changed just for my shake or I wont use it, nor I expect these changes to come fast or in same form as Workspace. As I said in that thread Pharo 4 is a long way to go till its release. I have no regrets about that thread, my criticism still stands and I think I have been fair and polite but also honest. You replied to my questions without making assumptions and jumping to conclusions about my character and my state of mind and I really appreciate that. As I state always and maybe I started to sound boring by now, documentation is the most important feature. Playground is an advanced tool and of course it needs some explaining to utilise properly . Those blog posts are definetly a good starting point. I am still studying them and I will be using Playground non stop from now on because I use always the latest Pharo 4 for my project Ephestos. I usually get the latest release every few days. Actually your reply put it in some thinking about the potential of using GT tools to refactor Python code which is the core goal of my project. Definetly some exciting potential there. Keep up the great work. On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Hi Thierry, > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 12:03 AM, Thierry Goubier < > thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> [...] >> And now, to make integration easier, we pile more stuff on top of the >> existing, bound to be removed, infrastructure: Glamour, Rubric, etc... And >> both Glamour and Spec don't make it easy to solve Morphic bugs. >> >> I value your ambition a lot :) But I also feel that it stresses the Rmod >> team, and it leaks over the community. >> > > I believe there is a confusion here. GT and Glamour are not maintained by > the RMoD team. GT is an external project and it is maintained in its > separate repository. That is why it stresses RMoD less and it is a way of > scaling. > > Also, since more than one year I am working on fixing various Morphic > problems, and I can tell you that GT provides a significant productivity > boost in that specific area. In any case, you should also note that these > tools are under development since several years (the overall project > started 5 years ago) and they are being actively used since 2 years in > Moose. I believe we never had that much focus on the tools before. > > Cheers, > Doru > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Every thing has its own flow" >

Oct. 4, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by Thierry Goubier

Le 04/10/2014 08:14, Tudor Girba a Ã©crit : > Hi Thierry, > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 12:03 AM, Thierry Goubier > <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: > > [...] > And now, to make integration easier, we pile more stuff on top of > the existing, bound to be removed, infrastructure: Glamour, Rubric, > etc... And both Glamour and Spec don't make it easy to solve Morphic > bugs. > > I value your ambition a lot :) But I also feel that it stresses the > Rmod team, and it leaks over the community. > > > I believe there is a confusion here. GT and Glamour are not maintained > by the RMoD team. GT is an external project and it is maintained in its > separate repository. That is why it stresses RMoD less and it is a way > of scaling. I agree that the GT Tools are a bit different. Still, TxText integration will have to work on all users of all forms of text, including GT (and additionally GT). And now you are starting to have the issue of handling slices on GT from Pharo: do people have to register on Moose, resynchronize on GT on Moose, push their slices there, wait for Moose to push a slice to integrate on Pharo, wait for Pharo to integrate that slice? > Also, since more than one year I am working on fixing various Morphic > problems, and I can tell you that GT provides a significant productivity > boost in that specific area. In any case, you should also note that > these tools are under development since several years (the overall > project started 5 years ago) and they are being actively used since 2 > years in Moose. I believe we never had that much focus on the tools before. I found that stepping through the opening sequence of GT to debug MorphTreeMorph a pain and had to find another way to understand the issue. I do have specific tools I can use in such circumstances that you don't have. I agree that Morphic has improved due to the fact GT is exposing it in different ways (and you solving bugs in there), and that you are integrating Alain's work (Rubric) in advance. I'm not worried by GT per se (see above for the contribution things), but by the fact core elements (Athens, TxText, NativeBoost, git) are a long way from stabilising. Thierry > > Cheers, > Doru > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com> > > "Every thing has its own flow"

Oct. 4, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by Tudor Girba

Hi Thierry, On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 12:03 AM, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > [...] > And now, to make integration easier, we pile more stuff on top of the > existing, bound to be removed, infrastructure: Glamour, Rubric, etc... And > both Glamour and Spec don't make it easy to solve Morphic bugs. > > I value your ambition a lot :) But I also feel that it stresses the Rmod > team, and it leaks over the community. > I believe there is a confusion here. GT and Glamour are not maintained by the RMoD team. GT is an external project and it is maintained in its separate repository. That is why it stresses RMoD less and it is a way of scaling. Also, since more than one year I am working on fixing various Morphic problems, and I can tell you that GT provides a significant productivity boost in that specific area. In any case, you should also note that these tools are under development since several years (the overall project started 5 years ago) and they are being actively used since 2 years in Moose. I believe we never had that much focus on the tools before. Cheers, Doru -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

Oct. 4, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] About ways to participate in community and general negativity

by Ben Coman

Tudor Girba wrote: > Hi Ben, > > > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 7:27 AM, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com > <mailto:btc@openinworld.com>> wrote: > > Tudor Girba wrote: > > Hi, > > Indeed, you are right about noting that the situation will look > different in a couple of months from now. Please, let's discuss > these problems again in 2 months. > > > > My point was not to delay discussion, but just not let it get you > down and be tolerant... > * For those sending criticism, of the system being in flux as in > progresses. > * For those receiving criticism, when its comes from those using the > bleeding edge because of their faith in Pharo > * For third parties looking on, be confident that it will come > together for the release. > > > I am not asking for delaying the discussion about the tools. I am simply > saying that the situation will be much different in a couple of months > after we have a chance of taking the feedback into account (already > quite some changes were made and more are under way, like the menu). As > a consequence, we should evaluate the need of having them in parallel > with other tools at that time not now. > > > > The classic tools are still around. Furthermore, in the > Settings, you have a Glamorous Toolkit category which allows you > to switch the Inspector and the Playground off. > > > > How hard would it be to run some parts of GToolkit in parallel with > existing tools, rather than on/off? I'd rather it stare me in the > face without boxing me in - to help me adapt in my own time. I tend > to forget about things I need to change a setting for. > > > It's not hard at all, but I believe it would defeat the purpose of the > exercise at this point. First, I believe the problems being reported are > actually minor and we should not overreact. Bare in mind that people > mostly reacted to missing features, and not bugs (except for the messed > up positioning of the cursor during completion) which is quite > encouraging given the magnitude of the change. > > Second, when working on the latest version you want to exercise the new, > not the old. The more options you allow to fallback to the old, the less > stress will be applied on the new. And especially given that we are a > small community, and that only a fraction of us actually works with the > latest version, it would be highly unproductive to not focus on the new. > > Cheers, > Doru Okay. That is a reasonable philosophy. -ben

Oct. 4, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] playground size

by Ben Coman

phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: > Well, my Spotlight looks like this: > > Inline image 1 > > You'll notice the $<expr> to execute commands. > > Works well. Code is here: > > http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~philippeback/HOExtras/packages/Tools > > Tools is an hefty package. Always interesting to dig in there. Looks > like there is SourceWebBrowser subclassing Workspace and a UserManager. > Never heard of those. It feels like an open world game. It is really > nice to be able to dig as deep as one wants in those areas. > > > Phil I like that idea of having a start character to determine the function of Spotlight. Its a highly extensible concept. -ben > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 10:57 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com > <mailto:tudor@tudorgirba.com>> wrote: > > This is indeed a relevant use case, and we are already thinking > about this issue for quite a while. The playground or even the > workspace are not appropriate for things that need to live for a > short time only. > > I would like to have an interface that comes, let's me enter my > command and then vanishes. Similar to the spotlight interface. And > once we will be on this, we will also make it a search interface... > remember that Pharo4 is about tooling so now is the time to dream > and do :). > > Doru > > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 10:38 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr > <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote: > > Yes your use case make a lot of sense. > >> I am using GT in 3.0 and the inspector is indeed supercool. >> >> Now, I've the standard Workspace on Cmd-o Cmd-w and the >> Playground on Cmd-g. Depending on the task, one or the other >> is better. >> >> I am using Workspaces as a kind of command prompt in Pharo to >> set some state of the system, reinitializing etc. There is >> zero need to inspect the result there nor have a large window. >> Also, the ability to save/load such workspaces is very useful >> (as well as making them unclosable). All of these abilities >> are lost with the Playground and the size of the Playground >> there would be too large. >> >> There is a use case for both facilities. >> >> Phil >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 5:07 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe >> <sven(a)stfx.eu <mailto:sven@stfx.eu>> wrote: >> >> I too feel that GT-Tools in general use up too much screen >> real estate. It is as if they were designed for big >> screens and/or small fonts. But I am concentrating on >> functionality (views) first, the look can change later on >> I guess. >> >> On 03 Oct 2014, at 17:05, Christophe Demarey >> <Christophe.Demarey(a)inria.fr >> <mailto:Christophe.Demarey@inria.fr>> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > >> > First I need to say, I love the new GT tools. It really >> goes a step further. >> > I just wanted to say that I find the Playground window >> quite big (at least 1/4 of the whole Pharo window). >> > I understand that the size is bigger than a simple >> workspace to be able to display panes after clicking play >> but if you just need to evaluate ()do-it, print-it) some >> code, it is over-sized. >> > Would it be possible to have a default window size >> smaller and resize automatically if you need to display an >> inspector pane? >> > >> > Regards, >> > Christophe. >> >> >> > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com> > > "Every thing has its own flow" > >

Oct. 4, 2014