- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Fwd: regression of NaN comparison

by stepharo

We do it like that else we could get in really bad position. Now it means that the VM ci should report this error. Stef Le 26/12/14 23:25, Nicolas Cellier a Ã©crit : > > > 2014-12-26 23:07 GMT+01:00 ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com > <mailto:bera.clement@gmail.com>>: > > > > 2014-12-26 22:30 GMT+01:00 Nicolas Cellier > <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com > <mailto:nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com>>: > > > > 2014-12-26 19:02 GMT+01:00 ClÃ©ment Bera > <bera.clement(a)gmail.com <mailto:bera.clement@gmail.com>>: > > Hello, > > It does not happen with the Cog VM nor with older Pharo VM. > > It's a VM bug and it's specific to the Pharo-VM fork. > > Most probably it's because of the float refactoring for > Smallfloat some stuff got incorrectly merged. > > Please consider writing a test for that in FloatTest and > make a slice for Pharo if you have some time. > > > Thanks Clement, > > there's already a test that is failing > (FloatTest>>testNaNCompare). > > What I find amazing is that I did not find this failure on the > CI server... > > > That's because the CI server does not use the latest VM, but the > stable one... > > > Ah OK, the CI server is single bleeding-edge rather than double > (VM+image) which might be a reasonnable choice for separating concerns. > But that was misleading! > If downloading the artefact from the CI server serves you a different > version than tested... > > > > > 2014-12-26 18:35 GMT+01:00 Nicolas Cellier > <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com > <mailto:nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com>>: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: *Nicolas Cellier* > <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com > <mailto:nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com>> > Date: 2014-12-26 16:52 GMT+01:00 > Subject: regression of NaN comparison > To: Pharo Development > <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > <mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr>> > > > I downloaded latest Pharo4.0-mac.zip from > https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/ > and I experienced a resurgence of this old bug: > > 2<Float nan. > > This is not one of the errors reported in the CI server. > Any clue? > > > > >

Dec. 27, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Old inspector and explorer

by stepharo

> OK, I understand, but how is this different from any other radical changes that we did ? > > When we introduced the Eye inspectors we did not offer two options at the same time (and I can give 10s of examples). So what is best, we all together use and make the best tools, or we all work with different tools ? Inspecting is central and we have the right to get use to old ways and prefer them and decide when we want to learn something new. I will add basicInspect and be happy. I can even add it to my own image and do not even have to argue. BUt if I do that we will all have lost something. Note that I found boring that I cannot scroll in the new open pane without clicking on it, it defeats the smooth navigation. Why the GTInpsector pane still displays a timestamp? Stef

Dec. 27, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Old inspector and explorer

by stepharo

Le 26/12/14 19:31, Nicolai Hess a Ã©crit : > But sometimes I just want one tool to inspect or explore an object, > without multiple scrolling pages, maybe I am just used to it. And I WANT TO DECIDE WHEN!

Dec. 27, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

by horrido

Do a search for Smalltalk resources, such as books, videos, tutorials, blogs, etc., and you will face a virtual avalanche of material. This can be overwhelming for Smalltalk newcomers to filter. Submit your favourite Smalltalk resources and I shall curate them and choose the best ones to place on our Resources page: http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/ <http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/> Thanks. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797114.h… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 27, 2014

The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

by horrido

I've launched a PR campaign to promote and advance the use of Smalltalk (and Amber): http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/ <http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/> I am seeking the support of the Smalltalk community. My intention is to make Smalltalk Renaissance /a rallying point/ around which everyone can gather and contribute to this campaign. Over the coming weeks and months, I shall outline my plan (which is still evolving). There have been many prior attempts to popularize Smalltalk. None have had any traction. Despite the best efforts of the Smalltalk community, today Smalltalk has become a largely forgotten language. (Smalltalk has fallen off the cliff at the TIOBE index, and it ranks poorly at Redmonk and langpop.corger.nl.) /I am trying something different./ Smalltalk Renaissance is a PR campaign. It is trying to /market/ Smalltalk, not on the exclusive basis of /technical merit/, but also by addressing criticisms and generating excitement about the future of software engineering. It is an ambitious campaign, but in this business, if you don't think *big*, then don't bother wasting your time. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 27, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] trouble with latest PharoLauncher on windows

by Ben Coman

Thanks Nicolai. That did it. Damien, Could you add file that to the CI job. cheers -ben On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 1:53 AM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)web.de> wrote: > try to copy a pharov30.sources into the installation directory > and of course, you can run the pharolauncher.image with every other vm > (installing from Installing from > http://files.pharo.org/platform/Pharo3.0-win.zip for example). > > nicolai > > > 2014-12-26 17:41 GMT+01:00 Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com>: > >> >> I am on a new computer for the xmas period and trying to install >> PharoLauncher >> >> On Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 64bit, I downloaded >> >> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoLauncher-Win-Package/lastSu… >> >> and ran the installer. First as a numal user escalating to Administative >> privileges, then again after logging in as an Administrator and running the >> installer. >> >> When I start "Pharo" from the menu bar, I see "pharo.exe" in the task >> list running at 13%, but nothing shows on the screen. >> >> The following shows in stderr file... >> >> [31m==== Startup Error: Error: Can't find the requested origin >> [0mWindowsResolver(PlatformResolver)>>cantFindOriginError >> WindowsResolver(PlatformResolver)>>directoryFromEnvVariableNamed: in >> Block: directoryFromEnvVariableNamed: var1... >> WindowsResolver(PlatformResolver)>>directoryFromEnvVariableNamed:or: in >> Block: [31mMessageNotUnderstood: receiver of "doSemanticAnalysisIn:" is nil >> [0mUndefinedObject(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #doSemanticAnalysisIn: >> ASTCache>>at: in Block: at: var1... >> ASTCache(Dictionary)>>at:ifAbsentPut: in Block: [31mMessageNotUnderstood: >> receiver of "doSemanticAnalysisIn:" is nil >> [0mUndefinedObject(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #doSemanticAnalysisIn: >> ASTCache>>at: in Block: at: var1... >> ASTCache(Dictionary)>>at:ifAbsentPut: in Block: [31mMessageNotUnderstood: >> receiver of "doSemanticAnalysisIn:" is nil >> [0mUndefinedObject(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #doSemanticAnalysisIn: >> >> with the last couple of lines repeating many times. >> >> Installing from http://files.pharo.org/platform/Pharo3.0-win.zip >> does work okay, but I can't live without PharoLauncher. >> >> Its too late to investigate further on it now and it may be a few days >> before I get back to it. Any pointers appreciated. >> >> cheers -ben >> > >

Dec. 27, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Old inspector and explorer

by Ben Coman

Kilon, You are right that tools will not satisfy "everyone" but I think Doru's point is we want the default tools to satisfy the majority. However the tool is new and there are _some_ gaps that _can_ be filled if people push the use case, so they want people to push back (even if sometimes it tends towards complaining). Now I wonder if the old inspector could somehow be embedded as a tab in GTInspector. Then rather than the Preference turning GTInspector off, it just changes the default view to the old inspector. So those people feeling the need for the old inspector still get exposed to GTInspector and become familiar with it in a progressive way. Doru, As I understand it, each tab is matched to a method definition on the object. So what about enhancing the explorability of the definitions for the existing tabs. Like a right click on the tab to open the definition for that tab. cheers -ben On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 4:56 AM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I have acknowledge the fact that after I mentioned things I missed from > old workspace you were quick to integrate them back to Playground (copy, > paste, implementors, senders etc). You dont understand my premise. My > premise that in the end a tool can only satisfy some people but not all of > them. To deny that is to deny the fabric of our reality. So my belief is > that the answer to the question that Sven asked and I was replying it to > ". So what is best, we all together use and make the best tools, or we all > work with different tools ?" is "both". We as a community help GT te > familiar with it in a progressive way.ools evolve with our contributions > (certainly I would love to contribute at some point too) and this > is definitely the start of a long term evolution but also on the other hand > individual of groups of pharo coder may create their own tools to fill the > gaps and satisfy needs the existing tools do not . > > Afterall one does not bother to use a fairly unpopular language / IDE that > is easy to hack if he does not intend to at least do some hacking with it. > The ease of building custom IDE tools with Pharo is what makes Pharo so > much fun. > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 10:13 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> > wrote: > >> Hi Kilon, >> >> Your premise is incorrect. Since two months we are gathering feedback and >> actively incorporating it in the tools. Quite some changes happened exactly >> because of this exercise, and they will continue to happen. Tools do get >> redesigned when there are enough arguments. >> >> You do not have to "suck it up". I have no interest in building something >> for my own needs only. I can do that by myself without going through all >> the trouble of asking people. >> >> We need to make explicit what does not work and the design emerges out of >> that. Your points of view matter. Your opinions will not be blindly >> incorporated and the final decision remains with the team that builds these >> tools, but the majority of times the design was agreed by everyone. This >> can work. >> >> I understand that it can be slightly inconvenient at times, but we want >> to get far fast, and for that we need everyone's help at least as feedback. >> If we keep the other tools around, the incentive to fall back on the >> existing habit is too great and feedback does not happen. Please put a bit >> more trust in us and we'll try to live up to your expectations. >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 7:40 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Why cant be both ? Why it has to be black and white ? What if we , I, >>> someone does not like the design of a tool at a fundamental level ? >>> >>> If you dont like a tool then you dont like a tool, its not as if the >>> tool itself will be redesigned to fit your own needs . You have two choices >>> a) suck it up and compromise with what you have b) suck it up go through >>> the pain / pleasure of creating your own solution. One thing I learned with >>> coding is that for other codes its usually "use the right tool for the >>> right job" but for me is "the right tools for the right coder". >>> >>> "Personal Preferences" is the name of the game. Plus I disagree that >>> without variation of effort we can have high quality tools. Take a look at >>> the software landscape , there is extremely variation out there, why you >>> think Pharo is immune to that ? >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 8:14 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> > On 26 Dec 2014, at 17:42, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > + 10000 >>>> > >>>> > Debugging the rendering loops of Athens was such an example. In Bloc >>>> I get some race conditions with MC forked process... another fun one. >>>> > Let people decide!!! >>>> > >>>> > Doru I DO NOT WANT TO LEARN WHAT I DO NOT WANT TO LEARN! >>>> > I WANT to DECIDE WHEN. I control my agenda and my own schedule and my >>>> list is huge. >>>> >>>> OK, I understand, but how is this different from any other radical >>>> changes that we did ? >>>> >>>> When we introduced the Eye inspectors we did not offer two options at >>>> the same time (and I can give 10s of examples). So what is best, we all >>>> together use and make the best tools, or we all work with different tools ? >>>> >>>> > Stef >>>> >> Doru, >>>> >> >>>> >> I think your intention is a good one but slightly misplaced. I >>>> really like the idea of GTInspector. It surely is a great tool and maybe >>>> I'll start to build my own inspector on my kind of things. >>>> >> To me the difference is between "motivated to do" or "forced to do". >>>> Most of the time we are trying hard to solve our own problems. If in that >>>> progress other problems are forced upon us we get easily distracted and >>>> frustrated. The same goes for new tools. If I'm forced to use these it just >>>> means I have to deal with it first and only then I'm allowed to deal with >>>> my own problem. As it was in that special case the bug in nautilus and the >>>> new inspector made me shy away from developing something in 4.0 and now I'm >>>> back on 3.0. >>>> >> >>>> >> So I think the only possibility is to "offer" a new way of doing >>>> things and give people time to adjust. >>>> >> >>>> >> Norbert >>>> >> >>>> >>> Am 26.12.2014 um 13:18 schrieb Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com>: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Hi, >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I think there must be a misunderstanding. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> There can be a good reason for having a basic inspector around, but >>>> I think the reason is not because people cannot choose what to use. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> There is a toggle to enable/disable the GTInspector. But, even >>>> without it, the main feature of the GTInspector is exactly to be extended >>>> the way people want and not impose a fixed way. This is completely >>>> different from what existed before. In fact, half a year ago there was no >>>> problem that people could neither choose nor extend anything. In the >>>> meantime, we can extend our workflows significantly. Adding the various >>>> flavors of browsing objects is perhaps a couple of lines long and each of >>>> us can tweak it because there is no higher entity that should decide >>>> anymore. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> What I cannot quite grasp is that while we pride ourselves with >>>> working on a reflective language, when we have reflective tools, we seem to >>>> not be able to take half an hour to build the tool that fits our needs. I >>>> am still wondering what is needed to improve this. I think that it's a >>>> problem of exercise or of communication, but it seems that just providing >>>> the examples that I linked before is not enough and most people look at the >>>> inspector still as a black box tool. I will try to work on a tutorial to >>>> see if it gets better, but do you find the moldability proposition not >>>> valuable or just unclear? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> But, as I said, there can still be a valid reason to enable a basic >>>> inspector that relies on a minimal of libraries (so, definitely not the >>>> Spec one) for the same reason we have an emergency debugger. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Cheers, >>>> >>> Doru >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 11:43 AM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>> I will add basicInspect in Object so that we can get access to the >>>> old inspector. >>>> >>> I like that people can choose their tools! >>>> >>> I mentioned that 20 times but people do not care apparently. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Stef >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Le 23/12/14 11:50, Norbert Hartl a Ã©crit : >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Is there a way to get the old tools via shortcut? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I started something new with pharo 4.0 today. I discovered a bug in >>>> Nautilus where every rename or deletion of a method raises a debugger. I >>>> tried finding the bug but struggled because to me the new inspector is >>>> really confusing. If I "just" want to unfold a few levels of references to >>>> get a glimpse of the structure the new tool prevents me from doing that. >>>> There is just to much information in this window and too much happening to >>>> me. >>>> >>> To me it looks like a power tool you need to get used to. So it is >>>> probably not the best tool for simple tasks and people new to this >>>> environment might be overwhelmed. At least I would like to be able to use >>>> the old tools. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Norbert >>>> >>>

Dec. 27, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Fwd: regression of NaN comparison

by Nicolas Cellier

2014-12-26 23:07 GMT+01:00 ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com>: > > > 2014-12-26 22:30 GMT+01:00 Nicolas Cellier < > nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com>: > >> >> >> 2014-12-26 19:02 GMT+01:00 ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com>: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> It does not happen with the Cog VM nor with older Pharo VM. >>> >>> It's a VM bug and it's specific to the Pharo-VM fork. >>> >>> Most probably it's because of the float refactoring for Smallfloat some >>> stuff got incorrectly merged. >>> >>> Please consider writing a test for that in FloatTest and make a slice >>> for Pharo if you have some time. >>> >> >> Thanks Clement, >> >> there's already a test that is failing (FloatTest>>testNaNCompare). >> >> What I find amazing is that I did not find this failure on the CI >> server... >> > > That's because the CI server does not use the latest VM, but the stable > one... > Ah OK, the CI server is single bleeding-edge rather than double (VM+image) which might be a reasonnable choice for separating concerns. But that was misleading! If downloading the artefact from the CI server serves you a different version than tested... >> >> >>> >>> 2014-12-26 18:35 GMT+01:00 Nicolas Cellier < >>> nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com>: >>> >>>> >>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>> From: Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com> >>>> Date: 2014-12-26 16:52 GMT+01:00 >>>> Subject: regression of NaN comparison >>>> To: Pharo Development <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> >>>> >>>> >>>> I downloaded latest Pharo4.0-mac.zip from https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/ >>>> and I experienced a resurgence of this old bug: >>>> >>>> 2<Float nan. >>>> >>>> This is not one of the errors reported in the CI server. >>>> Any clue? >>>> >>>> >>> >> >

Dec. 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Fwd: regression of NaN comparison

by ClÃ©ment Bera

2014-12-26 22:30 GMT+01:00 Nicolas Cellier < nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com>: > > > 2014-12-26 19:02 GMT+01:00 ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com>: > >> Hello, >> >> It does not happen with the Cog VM nor with older Pharo VM. >> >> It's a VM bug and it's specific to the Pharo-VM fork. >> >> Most probably it's because of the float refactoring for Smallfloat some >> stuff got incorrectly merged. >> >> Please consider writing a test for that in FloatTest and make a slice for >> Pharo if you have some time. >> > > Thanks Clement, > > there's already a test that is failing (FloatTest>>testNaNCompare). > > What I find amazing is that I did not find this failure on the CI server... > That's because the CI server does not use the latest VM, but the stable one... > > > >> >> 2014-12-26 18:35 GMT+01:00 Nicolas Cellier < >> nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com>: >> >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com> >>> Date: 2014-12-26 16:52 GMT+01:00 >>> Subject: regression of NaN comparison >>> To: Pharo Development <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> >>> >>> >>> I downloaded latest Pharo4.0-mac.zip from https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/ >>> and I experienced a resurgence of this old bug: >>> >>> 2<Float nan. >>> >>> This is not one of the errors reported in the CI server. >>> Any clue? >>> >>> >> >

Dec. 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Old inspector and explorer

by Tudor Girba

Hi Nicolas, I agree that this is a problem. I actually would like to not have self at all in the list. Cheers, Doru On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 10:37 PM, Nicolas Cellier < nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com> wrote: > One thing that upset me is the recursive opening of the same view again > and again > for example when you do something like 'foo' inspect, with the raw view > self | 'foo' > You must then learn to not click self, what use to this? > > There should be dead ends, when you can't go any deeper, you can't... > > 2014-12-26 21:56 GMT+01:00 kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > >> I have acknowledge the fact that after I mentioned things I missed from >> old workspace you were quick to integrate them back to Playground (copy, >> paste, implementors, senders etc). You dont understand my premise. My >> premise that in the end a tool can only satisfy some people but not all of >> them. To deny that is to deny the fabric of our reality. So my belief is >> that the answer to the question that Sven asked and I was replying it to >> ". So what is best, we all together use and make the best tools, or we all >> work with different tools ?" is "both". We as a community help GT tools >> evolve with our contributions (certainly I would love to contribute at some >> point too) and this is definitely the start of a long term evolution but >> also on the other hand individual of groups of pharo coder may create their >> own tools to fill the gaps and satisfy needs the existing tools do not . >> >> Afterall one does not bother to use a fairly unpopular language / IDE >> that is easy to hack if he does not intend to at least do some hacking with >> it. The ease of building custom IDE tools with Pharo is what makes Pharo so >> much fun. >> >> On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 10:13 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Kilon, >>> >>> Your premise is incorrect. Since two months we are gathering feedback >>> and actively incorporating it in the tools. Quite some changes happened >>> exactly because of this exercise, and they will continue to happen. Tools >>> do get redesigned when there are enough arguments. >>> >>> You do not have to "suck it up". I have no interest in building >>> something for my own needs only. I can do that by myself without going >>> through all the trouble of asking people. >>> >>> We need to make explicit what does not work and the design emerges out >>> of that. Your points of view matter. Your opinions will not be blindly >>> incorporated and the final decision remains with the team that builds these >>> tools, but the majority of times the design was agreed by everyone. This >>> can work. >>> >>> I understand that it can be slightly inconvenient at times, but we want >>> to get far fast, and for that we need everyone's help at least as feedback. >>> If we keep the other tools around, the incentive to fall back on the >>> existing habit is too great and feedback does not happen. Please put a bit >>> more trust in us and we'll try to live up to your expectations. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Doru >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 7:40 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Why cant be both ? Why it has to be black and white ? What if we , I, >>>> someone does not like the design of a tool at a fundamental level ? >>>> >>>> If you dont like a tool then you dont like a tool, its not as if the >>>> tool itself will be redesigned to fit your own needs . You have two choices >>>> a) suck it up and compromise with what you have b) suck it up go through >>>> the pain / pleasure of creating your own solution. One thing I learned with >>>> coding is that for other codes its usually "use the right tool for the >>>> right job" but for me is "the right tools for the right coder". >>>> >>>> "Personal Preferences" is the name of the game. Plus I disagree that >>>> without variation of effort we can have high quality tools. Take a look at >>>> the software landscape , there is extremely variation out there, why you >>>> think Pharo is immune to that ? >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 8:14 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> > On 26 Dec 2014, at 17:42, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > + 10000 >>>>> > >>>>> > Debugging the rendering loops of Athens was such an example. In Bloc >>>>> I get some race conditions with MC forked process... another fun one. >>>>> > Let people decide!!! >>>>> > >>>>> > Doru I DO NOT WANT TO LEARN WHAT I DO NOT WANT TO LEARN! >>>>> > I WANT to DECIDE WHEN. I control my agenda and my own schedule and >>>>> my list is huge. >>>>> >>>>> OK, I understand, but how is this different from any other radical >>>>> changes that we did ? >>>>> >>>>> When we introduced the Eye inspectors we did not offer two options at >>>>> the same time (and I can give 10s of examples). So what is best, we all >>>>> together use and make the best tools, or we all work with different tools ? >>>>> >>>>> > Stef >>>>> >> Doru, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I think your intention is a good one but slightly misplaced. I >>>>> really like the idea of GTInspector. It surely is a great tool and maybe >>>>> I'll start to build my own inspector on my kind of things. >>>>> >> To me the difference is between "motivated to do" or "forced to >>>>> do". Most of the time we are trying hard to solve our own problems. If in >>>>> that progress other problems are forced upon us we get easily distracted >>>>> and frustrated. The same goes for new tools. If I'm forced to use these it >>>>> just means I have to deal with it first and only then I'm allowed to deal >>>>> with my own problem. As it was in that special case the bug in nautilus and >>>>> the new inspector made me shy away from developing something in 4.0 and now >>>>> I'm back on 3.0. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> So I think the only possibility is to "offer" a new way of doing >>>>> things and give people time to adjust. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Norbert >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> Am 26.12.2014 um 13:18 schrieb Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com>: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Hi, >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I think there must be a misunderstanding. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> There can be a good reason for having a basic inspector around, >>>>> but I think the reason is not because people cannot choose what to use. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> There is a toggle to enable/disable the GTInspector. But, even >>>>> without it, the main feature of the GTInspector is exactly to be extended >>>>> the way people want and not impose a fixed way. This is completely >>>>> different from what existed before. In fact, half a year ago there was no >>>>> problem that people could neither choose nor extend anything. In the >>>>> meantime, we can extend our workflows significantly. Adding the various >>>>> flavors of browsing objects is perhaps a couple of lines long and each of >>>>> us can tweak it because there is no higher entity that should decide >>>>> anymore. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> What I cannot quite grasp is that while we pride ourselves with >>>>> working on a reflective language, when we have reflective tools, we seem to >>>>> not be able to take half an hour to build the tool that fits our needs. I >>>>> am still wondering what is needed to improve this. I think that it's a >>>>> problem of exercise or of communication, but it seems that just providing >>>>> the examples that I linked before is not enough and most people look at the >>>>> inspector still as a black box tool. I will try to work on a tutorial to >>>>> see if it gets better, but do you find the moldability proposition not >>>>> valuable or just unclear? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> But, as I said, there can still be a valid reason to enable a >>>>> basic inspector that relies on a minimal of libraries (so, definitely not >>>>> the Spec one) for the same reason we have an emergency debugger. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Cheers, >>>>> >>> Doru >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 11:43 AM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>> I will add basicInspect in Object so that we can get access to the >>>>> old inspector. >>>>> >>> I like that people can choose their tools! >>>>> >>> I mentioned that 20 times but people do not care apparently. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Stef >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Le 23/12/14 11:50, Norbert Hartl a Ã©crit : >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Is there a way to get the old tools via shortcut? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I started something new with pharo 4.0 today. I discovered a bug >>>>> in Nautilus where every rename or deletion of a method raises a debugger. I >>>>> tried finding the bug but struggled because to me the new inspector is >>>>> really confusing. If I "just" want to unfold a few levels of references to >>>>> get a glimpse of the structure the new tool prevents me from doing that. >>>>> There is just to much information in this window and too much happening to >>>>> me. >>>>> >>> To me it looks like a power tool you need to get used to. So it is >>>>> probably not the best tool for simple tasks and people new to this >>>>> environment might be overwhelmed. At least I would like to be able to use >>>>> the old tools. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> Norbert >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> -- >>>>> >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> "Every thing has its own flow" >>>>> >> >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> >>> "Every thing has its own flow" >>> >> >> > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

Dec. 26, 2014