- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] possible Windows Update "1903" Iceberg problem

by Guillermo Polito

Hi all, First, please, we would love if you can test what Pablo proposed and give us some feedback. It will be super helpful to evaluate if it is worth to generate a new vm release!!! Also, besides what Pablo said in the previous email, I wanted to share some more precisions. === Precisions on the problem === First, just to clarify, we isolated the issue happening only on Windows10 #1903 on Pharo64 bits. Pharo32 bits does work well on that update number does work well. The origin of the problem seems to be a bad integration between libssh2 1.7.0 and the windows CNG crypto layer, which seemingly changed in this update. === The path to the solution === The solution was theoretically super straight forward (upgrade to openssh 1.9.0 + openssl for crypto instead of windows CNG). It was however super time consuming. - installing the windows update #1903 to test, reproduce and understand the issue took for us a couple of hours, reconfiguring the virtual machines to enlarge disks to download it, then install it... - compiling openssl took literally the entire afternoon yesterday in Pabloâs machine. - then we found several bugs in cmake openssl integration when compiling libssh2 on Cigwin + mingw, because life cannot be easy ^^ And fortunately, we found no incompatibilities between the different versions of these libraries (and libgit2 too!) so it could have been more time consuming :P. === Alternative solutions and workarounds === Alternatively for testing the libraries that Pablo sent in the previous email, there are some other workarounds that people could try in the meantime: 1) Use Pharo32 bits, which as I said above, does not have the problem. 2) Use Iceberg in HTTPS (and specifically set the Iceberg-Metacello integration to HTTP by default). We are also evaluating setting HTTPS by default in Iceberg as it is simpler to setup. Github, Gitkraken do use HTTPS as a sensible default too. Cheers > El 5 sept 2019, a las 14:28, tesonep(a)gmail.com escribiÃ³: > > Hi all, > with Guille we have been working in this issue since Monday, it > was a complicated issue to solve as we require to compile and test > different versions of the libgit2 library and its dependencies > (openssl and libssh2). > We have a workaround for using ssh in windows. > We have produced a new set of libraries with the correct versions. > These libraries are available in > https://drive.google.com/open?id=1fwAVyrEEXkGOAuyAh1wASRRSv3SjZ3R1 > The idea is to start testing them while we are working on a new > release of the VM. > > Cheers, > Pablo > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 10:05 AM Guillermo Polito > <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> Sorry for not communicating better :). >> We know this is an important issue and we did move it to top priority even prior to this email ;). >> Doru, to answer you, what people can do for the moment is to test what we are going to propose in a couple of hours in your windows machines. >> With Pablo we have tested in several Windows 10 machines pre- and post- update 1903. Still we would like people testing on their setups and other windows versions >> >> We have been working the last couple of days debugging openssh and libgit, and building a version with a more up-to-date version of openssh. >> We will come back later this morning / early afternoon with >> - a new vm setup using up to date versions of openssh >> - a description of workarounds for those tied to old versions of the VM >> So people can test. >> >> Cheers, >> Guille and Pablo >> >>> El 4 sept 2019, a las 8:38, ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> escribiÃ³: >>> >>> I saw everybody super busy and I imagine that they will reply soon. >>> Iâm travelling to give Pharo lectures. >>> >>>> On 3 Sep 2019, at 19:23, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Is there a way to speed the work on this one? >>>> >>>> At this moment, people cannot load any code in Pharo on Windows 10. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Doru >>>> >>>> -- >>>> www.feenk.com >>>> "Every thing has its own flow." >>>> >>>>> On 28 Aug 2019, at 16:20, ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> tx doru >>>>> >>>>> Stef >>>>> >>>>>> On 28 Aug 2019, at 16:01, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi >>>>>> >>>>>> I opened an issue: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/4437 >>>>>> >>>>>> I believe this should be treated as critical given that we cannot load code in Pharo 7 (or 8) which makes it almost useless for users. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Doru >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Aug 27, 2019, at 10:54 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We just encountered this on two different machines. We got this after the update to Windows 1903. For us itâs a critical issue at this point. What can we do to help with this? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Doru >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:50 PM, Ben Coman <btc(a)openInWorld.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hi Stef, >>>>>>>> I feel you missed my point. Probably I wasn't clear this has already been tested with latest Pharo 8 launched by PharoLauncher. >>>>>>>> The problem occurs with Pharo 7.0.3(64 bit) and with Pharo8.0-SNAPSHOT-build.635(64 bit) >>>>>>>> after Microsoft Windows Update 1903... >>>>>>>> https://www.computerworld.com/article/3409621/microsoft-starts-windows-10s-… >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If indeed 1903 is the cause, with this update now being *forced* down on people, this will potentially soon impact more and more Windows users. >>>>>>>> But my guess that 1903 is the culprit needs to be confirmed. >>>>>>>> So I am requesting someone with access to multiple Windows machines directly compare a 1903 machine with a pre-1903 machine. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> cheers -ben >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 12:58, ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi ben >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in the pharo launcher if you click on P8.0 (development version) you get access to all the builds. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Stef >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 16 Aug 2019, at 16:02, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> IThis morning the May 2019 Windows Update "1903" forced itself onto my computer and now 64-bits Pharo seems to have a problem with git_remote_fetch() FFI callout. I no longer have a non-1903 machine to directly compare behaviour before "1903". Can someone familiar with this area with both "pre-1903" and "1903" machines triage whether "1903" is indeed the cause? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A few other recent reports are noted here... >>>>>>>>> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/3418 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> cheers -ben >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> feenk.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Not knowing how to do something is not an argument for how it cannot be done." >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> feenk.com >>>>>> >>>>>> âLive like you mean it." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > Pablo Tesone. > tesonep(a)gmail.com >

Sept. 5, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo 8.0] Build #698: Improving performance of athens

by Henrik Sperre Johansen

Currently only cacheAt:ifAbsentPut: exists on Canvas, but wouldn't it be nicer to expand it to expose/generalize for:at:ifAbsentPut: from CairoBackendCache, rather than create two new class variables? When most of the asAthensPaintOn: dispatch through surface, that seems a nicer place to do the lookup (even though it rarely/ever change in practice), no? Cheers, Henry -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html

Sept. 5, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] possible Windows Update "1903" Iceberg problem

by tesonep＠gmail.com

Hi all, with Guille we have been working in this issue since Monday, it was a complicated issue to solve as we require to compile and test different versions of the libgit2 library and its dependencies (openssl and libssh2). We have a workaround for using ssh in windows. We have produced a new set of libraries with the correct versions. These libraries are available in https://drive.google.com/open?id=1fwAVyrEEXkGOAuyAh1wASRRSv3SjZ3R1 The idea is to start testing them while we are working on a new release of the VM. Cheers, Pablo On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 10:05 AM Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi all, > > Sorry for not communicating better :). > We know this is an important issue and we did move it to top priority even prior to this email ;). > Doru, to answer you, what people can do for the moment is to test what we are going to propose in a couple of hours in your windows machines. > With Pablo we have tested in several Windows 10 machines pre- and post- update 1903. Still we would like people testing on their setups and other windows versions > > We have been working the last couple of days debugging openssh and libgit, and building a version with a more up-to-date version of openssh. > We will come back later this morning / early afternoon with > - a new vm setup using up to date versions of openssh > - a description of workarounds for those tied to old versions of the VM > So people can test. > > Cheers, > Guille and Pablo > > > El 4 sept 2019, a las 8:38, ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> escribiÃ³: > > > > I saw everybody super busy and I imagine that they will reply soon. > > Iâm travelling to give Pharo lectures. > > > >> On 3 Sep 2019, at 19:23, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> Is there a way to speed the work on this one? > >> > >> At this moment, people cannot load any code in Pharo on Windows 10. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Doru > >> > >> -- > >> www.feenk.com > >> "Every thing has its own flow." > >> > >>> On 28 Aug 2019, at 16:20, ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> tx doru > >>> > >>> Stef > >>> > >>>> On 28 Aug 2019, at 16:01, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hi > >>>> > >>>> I opened an issue: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/4437 > >>>> > >>>> I believe this should be treated as critical given that we cannot load code in Pharo 7 (or 8) which makes it almost useless for users. > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> Doru > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Aug 27, 2019, at 10:54 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi, > >>>>> > >>>>> We just encountered this on two different machines. We got this after the update to Windows 1903. For us itâs a critical issue at this point. What can we do to help with this? > >>>>> > >>>>> Cheers, > >>>>> Doru > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:50 PM, Ben Coman <btc(a)openInWorld.com> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> hi Stef, > >>>>>> I feel you missed my point. Probably I wasn't clear this has already been tested with latest Pharo 8 launched by PharoLauncher. > >>>>>> The problem occurs with Pharo 7.0.3(64 bit) and with Pharo8.0-SNAPSHOT-build.635(64 bit) > >>>>>> after Microsoft Windows Update 1903... > >>>>>> https://www.computerworld.com/article/3409621/microsoft-starts-windows-10s-… > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If indeed 1903 is the cause, with this update now being *forced* down on people, this will potentially soon impact more and more Windows users. > >>>>>> But my guess that 1903 is the culprit needs to be confirmed. > >>>>>> So I am requesting someone with access to multiple Windows machines directly compare a 1903 machine with a pre-1903 machine. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> cheers -ben > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 12:58, ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> wrote: > >>>>>> Hi ben > >>>>>> > >>>>>> in the pharo launcher if you click on P8.0 (development version) you get access to all the builds. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Stef > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 16 Aug 2019, at 16:02, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> IThis morning the May 2019 Windows Update "1903" forced itself onto my computer and now 64-bits Pharo seems to have a problem with git_remote_fetch() FFI callout. I no longer have a non-1903 machine to directly compare behaviour before "1903". Can someone familiar with this area with both "pre-1903" and "1903" machines triage whether "1903" is indeed the cause? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> A few other recent reports are noted here... > >>>>>>> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/3418 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> cheers -ben > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> feenk.com > >>>>> > >>>>> "Not knowing how to do something is not an argument for how it cannot be done." > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> feenk.com > >>>> > >>>> âLive like you mean it." > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > -- Pablo Tesone. tesonep(a)gmail.com

Sept. 5, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] About tweets

by ducasse

Indeed so we removed everything. A clear win. Stef > So now I should complain why my twitter account is not in this list? ;) > > All pharoers are equal â¦. > > Norbert > >> Am 05.09.2019 um 12:25 schrieb ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com>: >> >> We are in sync. So I updated the web site to list the main pharo project >> and I put a list of other accounts with a disclaimer. >> >> I can do the same with the blog posts. >> >> Stef >> >>> On 5 Sep 2019, at 10:54, Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Stef, >>> >>> I understand - but before we focus the discussion too much on the mentioned #abortionismurder let's bring #4491 into perspective: >>> >>> 1. Important: I guess we all agree that we would like to tweet and inform as much on technical topics about Smalltalk in general and >>> Pharo in particular and not correlate our activities to single peoples personal habits, politics, religion or beliefs. >>> >>> 2. The aggregator that I suggested in the issue (https://twitter.com/WorldDotSt) is related to the website world.st - which is >>> a really useful technical resource on Smalltalk, Pharo and ESUG infos already throughout the years: >>> >>> - The forum page http://forum.world.st is summarizing various ST Mailinglists including ESUG list >>> - https://twitter.com/WorldDotSt aggregates most of the Pharo and Smalltalker Tweets in existence >>> >>> 3. You are referring in this thread here to the following tweet: https://twitter.com/AmberSmalltalk/status/1169239145530761217 >>> which is associating @esugsmalltalk @SergeStinckwich @stephaneducasse #smalltalk for whatever reason with the hash tag #abortionismurder >>> >>> I understand your reaction and post - but this was done outside our boundaries by twitter user "AmberSmalltalk" - also not by the aggregator >>> itself. And yes - this "AmberSmalltalk" owner seems to mix sometimes personal beliefs into technical infos. I share your doubts and dislike >>> this as well. >>> >>> It's a problem that existed before and is a problem of tweeting and social media in general. Something that is IMHO independent from described >>> issue #4491 - and you and Serge definitely need to sort out this #abortionismurder thing with the owner of this specific account. >>> >>> 4. The issue #4491 mentions that currently the Pharo community page (http://www.pharo.org/community) >>> >>> for Twitter ONLY PROMOTES >>> a) the offical tweet account @pharoproject >>> b) your personal @stephaneducasse account >>> as the ones to follow. >>> >>> But we have many more interesting community members tweeting on Pharo as you see on the list in the referred issue. So we should either >>> extend the community page with either more personal accounts, just use the offical one or use an external or own aggregator >>> including hashtags like #pharo, #pharoproject, ... >>> >>> >>> 5. As you might have noticed I also opened a second issue #4490 (https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/4490) as for the blogs mentioned >>> on the community page we have something similar: >>> >>> For Blogs WE ONLY PROMOTE on that page: >>> a) the official pharo weekly >>> b) my personal astares blog >>> c) the personal blog of clement >>> >>> But my blog is not special either - so an aggregator of the various Smalltalks blogs (as the one suggested from planet smalltalk) >>> made initially sense to me as it would include more blogs of members of the community and we would not have to adopt the community page all >>> the time a new blog appears. >>> >>> There are nice Pharo blogs out there like https://www.samadhiweb.com/blog, http://humane-assessment.com/blog and many other. >>> >>> Same applies here: either we just include the offical blog that we control, a list of more blogs of the various members or an aggregator >>> >>> 6. Yes - the community is unable to control what people write on Twitter, Blogs or other social media. Even our mailinglist "pharo-users_lists" >>> is not free from personal habits as yesterdays disussion about "guns" showed. >>> (http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org/2019-September…) >>> >>> And maybe linking to these aggregators or promoting them is not a good idea. If we take the discussion (over)serious we should then >>> really only link to official twitter account and official pharo blog that the community can control. >>> >>> In such a case we need to remove my blog and your personal twitter account from the community page as you sometimes tweet about >>> politics on your personal account too and I can potentially write on other non-technical topics on my blog as well (which I do not plan). >>> >>> >>> Basically we have four options: >>> a) we only link to the official twitter account (https://twitter.com/pharoproject) and blog (https://pharoweekly.wordpress.com/) >>> b) extend the list with personal twitter accounts as mentioned in issue #4491 and blogs like mentioned in #4490 >>> c) Link and rely on external aggregators >>> d) Setup an own aggregator on sources we trust >>> >>> Maybe as a valid solution an official "disclaimer" could help - that opinions shared on these PROMOTED sources are not controlled by >>> us and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the Pharo community >>> >>> And yes - the board should discuss, check and decide what to put or link to from the community page. >>> >>> Thanks >>> T. >>> >>>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 05. September 2019 um 08:03 Uhr >>>> Von: "ducasse" <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> >>>> An: "Pharo Development List" <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> >>>> Cc: "The Pharo Project" <board(a)pharo.org> >>>> Betreff: [Pharo-dev] About tweets >>>> >>>> Hi guys >>>> >>>> I encourage everybody to read this issue until the last conversation. >>>> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/4491 >>>> >>>> I have problem to promote an aggregator that can contain tweets containing #abortionismurder inside.!!!!!!!!! >>>> And I have even more problem that this is in a tweet on Amber Weekly!!!! >>>> >>>> I do not know who is behind AmberSmalltalk tweets but for me this is clearly impossible to read this >>>> on a tweet that Pharo supports. >>>> >>>> I also have a problem to promote an aggregator account >>>> We can provide a list and people what they want. >>>> I do not like the idea of aggregation. So I vote against and I will ask the board to decide. >>>> >>>> Stef >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >

Sept. 5, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] Fund rising for the new Spec20 book.

by Sean P. DeNigris

ducasse wrote > Thanks and sorry for the burden. No problem at all. ducasse wrote > Could you tell me your bank and I can ask the platform? Chase ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html

Sept. 5, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] About tweets

by Norbert Hartl

So now I should complain why my twitter account is not in this list? ;) All pharoers are equal â¦. Norbert > Am 05.09.2019 um 12:25 schrieb ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com>: > > We are in sync. So I updated the web site to list the main pharo project > and I put a list of other accounts with a disclaimer. > > I can do the same with the blog posts. > > Stef > >> On 5 Sep 2019, at 10:54, Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: >> >> Hi Stef, >> >> I understand - but before we focus the discussion too much on the mentioned #abortionismurder let's bring #4491 into perspective: >> >> 1. Important: I guess we all agree that we would like to tweet and inform as much on technical topics about Smalltalk in general and >> Pharo in particular and not correlate our activities to single peoples personal habits, politics, religion or beliefs. >> >> 2. The aggregator that I suggested in the issue (https://twitter.com/WorldDotSt) is related to the website world.st - which is >> a really useful technical resource on Smalltalk, Pharo and ESUG infos already throughout the years: >> >> - The forum page http://forum.world.st is summarizing various ST Mailinglists including ESUG list >> - https://twitter.com/WorldDotSt aggregates most of the Pharo and Smalltalker Tweets in existence >> >> 3. You are referring in this thread here to the following tweet: https://twitter.com/AmberSmalltalk/status/1169239145530761217 >> which is associating @esugsmalltalk @SergeStinckwich @stephaneducasse #smalltalk for whatever reason with the hash tag #abortionismurder >> >> I understand your reaction and post - but this was done outside our boundaries by twitter user "AmberSmalltalk" - also not by the aggregator >> itself. And yes - this "AmberSmalltalk" owner seems to mix sometimes personal beliefs into technical infos. I share your doubts and dislike >> this as well. >> >> It's a problem that existed before and is a problem of tweeting and social media in general. Something that is IMHO independent from described >> issue #4491 - and you and Serge definitely need to sort out this #abortionismurder thing with the owner of this specific account. >> >> 4. The issue #4491 mentions that currently the Pharo community page (http://www.pharo.org/community) >> >> for Twitter ONLY PROMOTES >> a) the offical tweet account @pharoproject >> b) your personal @stephaneducasse account >> as the ones to follow. >> >> But we have many more interesting community members tweeting on Pharo as you see on the list in the referred issue. So we should either >> extend the community page with either more personal accounts, just use the offical one or use an external or own aggregator >> including hashtags like #pharo, #pharoproject, ... >> >> >> 5. As you might have noticed I also opened a second issue #4490 (https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/4490) as for the blogs mentioned >> on the community page we have something similar: >> >> For Blogs WE ONLY PROMOTE on that page: >> a) the official pharo weekly >> b) my personal astares blog >> c) the personal blog of clement >> >> But my blog is not special either - so an aggregator of the various Smalltalks blogs (as the one suggested from planet smalltalk) >> made initially sense to me as it would include more blogs of members of the community and we would not have to adopt the community page all >> the time a new blog appears. >> >> There are nice Pharo blogs out there like https://www.samadhiweb.com/blog, http://humane-assessment.com/blog and many other. >> >> Same applies here: either we just include the offical blog that we control, a list of more blogs of the various members or an aggregator >> >> 6. Yes - the community is unable to control what people write on Twitter, Blogs or other social media. Even our mailinglist "pharo-users_lists" >> is not free from personal habits as yesterdays disussion about "guns" showed. >> (http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org/2019-September…) >> >> And maybe linking to these aggregators or promoting them is not a good idea. If we take the discussion (over)serious we should then >> really only link to official twitter account and official pharo blog that the community can control. >> >> In such a case we need to remove my blog and your personal twitter account from the community page as you sometimes tweet about >> politics on your personal account too and I can potentially write on other non-technical topics on my blog as well (which I do not plan). >> >> >> Basically we have four options: >> a) we only link to the official twitter account (https://twitter.com/pharoproject) and blog (https://pharoweekly.wordpress.com/) >> b) extend the list with personal twitter accounts as mentioned in issue #4491 and blogs like mentioned in #4490 >> c) Link and rely on external aggregators >> d) Setup an own aggregator on sources we trust >> >> Maybe as a valid solution an official "disclaimer" could help - that opinions shared on these PROMOTED sources are not controlled by >> us and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the Pharo community >> >> And yes - the board should discuss, check and decide what to put or link to from the community page. >> >> Thanks >> T. >> >>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 05. September 2019 um 08:03 Uhr >>> Von: "ducasse" <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> >>> An: "Pharo Development List" <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> >>> Cc: "The Pharo Project" <board(a)pharo.org> >>> Betreff: [Pharo-dev] About tweets >>> >>> Hi guys >>> >>> I encourage everybody to read this issue until the last conversation. >>> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/4491 >>> >>> I have problem to promote an aggregator that can contain tweets containing #abortionismurder inside.!!!!!!!!! >>> And I have even more problem that this is in a tweet on Amber Weekly!!!! >>> >>> I do not know who is behind AmberSmalltalk tweets but for me this is clearly impossible to read this >>> on a tweet that Pharo supports. >>> >>> I also have a problem to promote an aggregator account >>> We can provide a list and people what they want. >>> I do not like the idea of aggregation. So I vote against and I will ask the board to decide. >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> >> > >

Sept. 5, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] About tweets

by ducasse

We are in sync. So I updated the web site to list the main pharo project and I put a list of other accounts with a disclaimer. I can do the same with the blog posts. Stef > On 5 Sep 2019, at 10:54, Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: > > Hi Stef, > > I understand - but before we focus the discussion too much on the mentioned #abortionismurder let's bring #4491 into perspective: > > 1. Important: I guess we all agree that we would like to tweet and inform as much on technical topics about Smalltalk in general and > Pharo in particular and not correlate our activities to single peoples personal habits, politics, religion or beliefs. > > 2. The aggregator that I suggested in the issue (https://twitter.com/WorldDotSt) is related to the website world.st - which is > a really useful technical resource on Smalltalk, Pharo and ESUG infos already throughout the years: > > - The forum page http://forum.world.st is summarizing various ST Mailinglists including ESUG list > - https://twitter.com/WorldDotSt aggregates most of the Pharo and Smalltalker Tweets in existence > > 3. You are referring in this thread here to the following tweet: https://twitter.com/AmberSmalltalk/status/1169239145530761217 > which is associating @esugsmalltalk @SergeStinckwich @stephaneducasse #smalltalk for whatever reason with the hash tag #abortionismurder > > I understand your reaction and post - but this was done outside our boundaries by twitter user "AmberSmalltalk" - also not by the aggregator > itself. And yes - this "AmberSmalltalk" owner seems to mix sometimes personal beliefs into technical infos. I share your doubts and dislike > this as well. > > It's a problem that existed before and is a problem of tweeting and social media in general. Something that is IMHO independent from described > issue #4491 - and you and Serge definitely need to sort out this #abortionismurder thing with the owner of this specific account. > > 4. The issue #4491 mentions that currently the Pharo community page (http://www.pharo.org/community) > > for Twitter ONLY PROMOTES > a) the offical tweet account @pharoproject > b) your personal @stephaneducasse account > as the ones to follow. > > But we have many more interesting community members tweeting on Pharo as you see on the list in the referred issue. So we should either > extend the community page with either more personal accounts, just use the offical one or use an external or own aggregator > including hashtags like #pharo, #pharoproject, ... > > > 5. As you might have noticed I also opened a second issue #4490 (https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/4490) as for the blogs mentioned > on the community page we have something similar: > > For Blogs WE ONLY PROMOTE on that page: > a) the official pharo weekly > b) my personal astares blog > c) the personal blog of clement > > But my blog is not special either - so an aggregator of the various Smalltalks blogs (as the one suggested from planet smalltalk) > made initially sense to me as it would include more blogs of members of the community and we would not have to adopt the community page all > the time a new blog appears. > > There are nice Pharo blogs out there like https://www.samadhiweb.com/blog, http://humane-assessment.com/blog and many other. > > Same applies here: either we just include the offical blog that we control, a list of more blogs of the various members or an aggregator > > 6. Yes - the community is unable to control what people write on Twitter, Blogs or other social media. Even our mailinglist "pharo-users_lists" > is not free from personal habits as yesterdays disussion about "guns" showed. > (http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org/2019-September…) > > And maybe linking to these aggregators or promoting them is not a good idea. If we take the discussion (over)serious we should then > really only link to official twitter account and official pharo blog that the community can control. > > In such a case we need to remove my blog and your personal twitter account from the community page as you sometimes tweet about > politics on your personal account too and I can potentially write on other non-technical topics on my blog as well (which I do not plan). > > > Basically we have four options: > a) we only link to the official twitter account (https://twitter.com/pharoproject) and blog (https://pharoweekly.wordpress.com/) > b) extend the list with personal twitter accounts as mentioned in issue #4491 and blogs like mentioned in #4490 > c) Link and rely on external aggregators > d) Setup an own aggregator on sources we trust > > Maybe as a valid solution an official "disclaimer" could help - that opinions shared on these PROMOTED sources are not controlled by > us and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the Pharo community > > And yes - the board should discuss, check and decide what to put or link to from the community page. > > Thanks > T. > >> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 05. September 2019 um 08:03 Uhr >> Von: "ducasse" <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> >> An: "Pharo Development List" <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> >> Cc: "The Pharo Project" <board(a)pharo.org> >> Betreff: [Pharo-dev] About tweets >> >> Hi guys >> >> I encourage everybody to read this issue until the last conversation. >> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/4491 >> >> I have problem to promote an aggregator that can contain tweets containing #abortionismurder inside.!!!!!!!!! >> And I have even more problem that this is in a tweet on Amber Weekly!!!! >> >> I do not know who is behind AmberSmalltalk tweets but for me this is clearly impossible to read this >> on a tweet that Pharo supports. >> >> I also have a problem to promote an aggregator account >> We can provide a list and people what they want. >> I do not like the idea of aggregation. So I vote against and I will ask the board to decide. >> >> Stef >> >> >

Sept. 5, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] About tweets

by Torsten Bergmann

Hi Stef, I understand - but before we focus the discussion too much on the mentioned #abortionismurder let's bring #4491 into perspective: 1. Important: I guess we all agree that we would like to tweet and inform as much on technical topics about Smalltalk in general and Pharo in particular and not correlate our activities to single peoples personal habits, politics, religion or beliefs. 2. The aggregator that I suggested in the issue (https://twitter.com/WorldDotSt) is related to the website world.st - which is a really useful technical resource on Smalltalk, Pharo and ESUG infos already throughout the years: - The forum page http://forum.world.st is summarizing various ST Mailinglists including ESUG list - https://twitter.com/WorldDotSt aggregates most of the Pharo and Smalltalker Tweets in existence 3. You are referring in this thread here to the following tweet: https://twitter.com/AmberSmalltalk/status/1169239145530761217 which is associating @esugsmalltalk @SergeStinckwich @stephaneducasse #smalltalk for whatever reason with the hash tag #abortionismurder I understand your reaction and post - but this was done outside our boundaries by twitter user "AmberSmalltalk" - also not by the aggregator itself. And yes - this "AmberSmalltalk" owner seems to mix sometimes personal beliefs into technical infos. I share your doubts and dislike this as well. It's a problem that existed before and is a problem of tweeting and social media in general. Something that is IMHO independent from described issue #4491 - and you and Serge definitely need to sort out this #abortionismurder thing with the owner of this specific account. 4. The issue #4491 mentions that currently the Pharo community page (http://www.pharo.org/community) for Twitter ONLY PROMOTES a) the offical tweet account @pharoproject b) your personal @stephaneducasse account as the ones to follow. But we have many more interesting community members tweeting on Pharo as you see on the list in the referred issue. So we should either extend the community page with either more personal accounts, just use the offical one or use an external or own aggregator including hashtags like #pharo, #pharoproject, ... 5. As you might have noticed I also opened a second issue #4490 (https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/4490) as for the blogs mentioned on the community page we have something similar: For Blogs WE ONLY PROMOTE on that page: a) the official pharo weekly b) my personal astares blog c) the personal blog of clement But my blog is not special either - so an aggregator of the various Smalltalks blogs (as the one suggested from planet smalltalk) made initially sense to me as it would include more blogs of members of the community and we would not have to adopt the community page all the time a new blog appears. There are nice Pharo blogs out there like https://www.samadhiweb.com/blog, http://humane-assessment.com/blog and many other. Same applies here: either we just include the offical blog that we control, a list of more blogs of the various members or an aggregator 6. Yes - the community is unable to control what people write on Twitter, Blogs or other social media. Even our mailinglist "pharo-users_lists" is not free from personal habits as yesterdays disussion about "guns" showed. (http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org/2019-September…) And maybe linking to these aggregators or promoting them is not a good idea. If we take the discussion (over)serious we should then really only link to official twitter account and official pharo blog that the community can control. In such a case we need to remove my blog and your personal twitter account from the community page as you sometimes tweet about politics on your personal account too and I can potentially write on other non-technical topics on my blog as well (which I do not plan). Basically we have four options: a) we only link to the official twitter account (https://twitter.com/pharoproject) and blog (https://pharoweekly.wordpress.com/) b) extend the list with personal twitter accounts as mentioned in issue #4491 and blogs like mentioned in #4490 c) Link and rely on external aggregators d) Setup an own aggregator on sources we trust Maybe as a valid solution an official "disclaimer" could help - that opinions shared on these PROMOTED sources are not controlled by us and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the Pharo community And yes - the board should discuss, check and decide what to put or link to from the community page. Thanks T. > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 05. September 2019 um 08:03 Uhr > Von: "ducasse" <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> > An: "Pharo Development List" <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> > Cc: "The Pharo Project" <board(a)pharo.org> > Betreff: [Pharo-dev] About tweets > > Hi guys > > I encourage everybody to read this issue until the last conversation. > https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/4491 > > I have problem to promote an aggregator that can contain tweets containing #abortionismurder inside.!!!!!!!!! > And I have even more problem that this is in a tweet on Amber Weekly!!!! > > I do not know who is behind AmberSmalltalk tweets but for me this is clearly impossible to read this > on a tweet that Pharo supports. > > I also have a problem to promote an aggregator account > We can provide a list and people what they want. > I do not like the idea of aggregation. So I vote against and I will ask the board to decide. > > Stef > >

Sept. 5, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] About tweets

by Norbert Hartl

Ok, there seems to be some agreeable sense. Dealing with accounts of people tends to collect opinions and things not related to pharo. We are not interested in these. There are hashtags and mentions for things related to a topic. But a few (!) want to have more control. So using the @pharoproject account should be ok because we can like things to be includef from that account. Well at least the ones that have access to. Is this a proper summary? Norbert > Am 05.09.2019 um 08:48 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: > > Yes, I closed that issue. > > This is not going to happen, sorry :) > > Esteban > >> On 5 Sep 2019, at 08:03, ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> wrote: >> >> Hi guys >> >> I encourage everybody to read this issue until the last conversation. >> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/4491 >> >> I have problem to promote an aggregator that can contain tweets containing #abortionismurder inside.!!!!!!!!! >> And I have even more problem that this is in a tweet on Amber Weekly!!!! >> >> I do not know who is behind AmberSmalltalk tweets but for me this is clearly impossible to read this >> on a tweet that Pharo supports. >> >> I also have a problem to promote an aggregator account >> We can provide a list and people what they want. >> I do not like the idea of aggregation. So I vote against and I will ask the board to decide. >> >> Stef > >

Sept. 5, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] About tweets

by Esteban Lorenzano

Yes, I closed that issue. This is not going to happen, sorry :) Esteban > On 5 Sep 2019, at 08:03, ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> wrote: > > Hi guys > > I encourage everybody to read this issue until the last conversation. > https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/4491 > > I have problem to promote an aggregator that can contain tweets containing #abortionismurder inside.!!!!!!!!! > And I have even more problem that this is in a tweet on Amber Weekly!!!! > > I do not know who is behind AmberSmalltalk tweets but for me this is clearly impossible to read this > on a tweet that Pharo supports. > > I also have a problem to promote an aggregator account > We can provide a list and people what they want. > I do not like the idea of aggregation. So I vote against and I will ask the board to decide. > > Stef

Sept. 5, 2019