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Re: [Pharo-dev] About Magritte Seaside

by Dale Henrichs

On 10/14/2015 12:48 AM, Christophe Demarey wrote: > Le 12 oct. 2015 Ã 21:17, Dale Henrichs a Ã©crit : > >> >> On 10/12/2015 02:58 AM, Christophe Demarey wrote: >>> Le 11 oct. 2015 Ã 22:32, Dale Henrichs a Ã©crit : >>> >>> With our approach, metadata lies in the package for the current version and it is on the package repository when the version is released. Platform-specific packages could have their own dependencies. >>> What will be possible is to create a new package (not a source code package but a package that is used by a package manager, i.e. metadata) to support a new platform and reusing existing code (by pointing to the package source code). >>> Do you have an example to provide to me? >>> >>>> With all of that said, I really do love the idea of not having to support Metacello anymore:) So I would like to see you succeed with your effort! >>> It will take time ... >>> I would really like to get feedbacks on Cargo because the knowledge you got with Metacello is invaluable. >>> >>>>>> Perhaps at this point in time, I'd like to read some code. Then I can skip reading the paper and get a feel for how hard it will be to port to GemStone:) >>>>> I do not know where christophe save his code but it is be public. >>>> I may not have time to read a paper ... but I would have time to read code:) >>> http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~demarey/CargoPackageManager <http://smalltalkhub.com/#%21/%7Edemarey/CargoPackageManager> >>> >> While I think we might be trying to solve different problems ... I will take a close look at the code in CargoPackageMananger ... too bad, the code isn't on github, because it would be much easier for me to read, comment and contribute:) > I have github in mind but did not yet take the plunge. > I will see if can do it next days. That would be awesome as it will make collaboration so much easier! Dale

Oct. 14, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] About Magritte Seaside

by Dale Henrichs

On 10/14/2015 12:39 AM, Christophe Demarey wrote: > Le 12 oct. 2015 Ã 19:22, Dale Henrichs a Ã©crit : > >> >> On 10/12/2015 02:20 AM, Christophe Demarey wrote: >>> Le 11 oct. 2015 Ã 18:42, Dale Henrichs a Ã©crit : >>> >>>> On 10/11/15 12:19 AM, stepharo wrote: >>>>> Le 11/10/15 00:40, Dale Henrichs a Ã©crit : >>>>>> Christophe, >>>>>> >>>>>> I still don't have a lot of time to read the paper and try to understand what you are trying to accomplish, >>>>> you should read it. :) >>>>> We wrote it for that and it is not boring nor long. >>>> I scanned through it at the time and as I recall, I thought that the functionality described was already covered by git and BaselineOf ... but I did not read it in great detail and I did not (and still don't) have the time to compose a long-winded response:) >>>>>> but I am curious how you think "package dependencies" will play with git-based projects? >>>>>> >>>>>> In git-based repositories I don't think you have the same type of dependency issues that one might have with monticello repositories --- In a monticello repository you have a whole range of possible package versions to pick from, but in a git-based repository the range of package versions is fixed to those that are committed together so the packages that are meant to work together are committed together. >>>>> I think that this is only true for packages committed within the same repo. >>>>> Now between porjects published in different repo you have to express them. >>>>> I do not think that we all want to publish in the same repo and clone out everything. >>>> ... and inter-project dependencies is what a BaselineOf does .... which brings me back to the conclusion that I reached when I scanned the paper:) >>>>>> In the bootstrap scenario, you would only have one version per package to choose from, so the packages that are meant to work together are committed together .... >>>>>> >>>>>> I guess I don't know what you mean when you say: >>>>>>> we want to decouple a released version of a package from the working copy of the package version description (implies the creation of a package repository + a web interface on top of it to promote/search packages). >>>>>> Perhaps a description of the problem being solved would help me understand. >>>>> We want to be able to have a package market place where tools can grab dependencies without to load code >>>>> and can compute the set of packages that should be loaded. >>>>> >>>>> When a package is released into the market: then it externalise its metadata so that a crawler can automatically build >>>>> dependency graph and create specific distribution. >>>> Okay. This is a problem .... but it happens to be a problem that Metacello "can solve/does solve" - so there must be something else (a deeper problem?) that I don't quite understand. >>>> >>>> With that said, if you are planning to replace Metacello, then I am excited:) But I will repeat that I hope that you are considering cross platform issues ... >>>> >>>> Perhaps at this point in time, I'd like to read some code. Then I can skip reading the paper and get a feel for how hard it will be to port to GemStone:) >>> Well, the point is not to replace metacello but to go towards a per package metadata description allowing some flexibility with the introduction of virtual packages. >> Oh darn, you mean I have to continue to support Metacello:) >>> This will allow, in a first time, to set up a package repository and more important, a web site on top of it. In a second time, I also want to enable more flexibility in expressing dependencies constraints (eg. > 2.0, 3.*, etc.). To achieve that, you need a very performant dependency solver and I would like to reuse linux ones (it has be done for ocaml by example) through CUDF (check http://mancoosi.org/ >> There are a couple of different schemes for expressing "version ranges" in Metacello. Have you looked at them? > No, I did not check on latest Metacello versions. > What is supported? There are a number of operators that can be specified on a project by project basis including ~>[1] ... there never seemed to be a big demand for these operations, presumably because so few developers adhere to a semantic versioning scheme (which makes trying to reason about version numbers very hard) ... and I think that the symbolic version naming convention invented by the Seaside guys: #release3, #release3.1, #release3.2, etc. is superior (from a practical perspective) ... [1] https://robots.thoughtbot.com/rubys-pessimistic-operator > >> By reuse, do you mean that you will reimplement the algorithms in Smalltalk or are you suggesting that depency resolution will only work on linux? > I would like to define the dependency solving as a rest service, so no need to support multiple platforms. the dependency solving can be hosted on linux. So you can't do a build using CargoPackageManager without being connected to the internet ... As I said in another message, I think that you are trying to solve a different problem than Metacello ... there are a number of similarities in the contents of the meta data that is being used (and common specification classes at this level would probably be beneficial), but Metacello is primarily aimed at developers building and using packages produced by others ... I am taking the approach that for developers an SCM (I talk about git all the time, but any disk-based SCM can be used) is part an parcel of of not only developing your own projects but when using other projects, you inevitably have to a) customize them for your own use or b) contribute bugfixes back to the community and an SCM is required for that ... > >> From a practical perspective I am curious what problems will be solved by having "dependency constraints" expressed by anything more complicated than what I use for github: >> >> github://dalehenrich/tode:v0.0.?/repository >> >> Which translates to load the latest patch version of the tode project (where major.minor.patch) ... I know that in theory more complicated schemes are intersting, but that assumes that the developers assigning version numbers are actually adhering to a rational version numbering scheme and from a practical matter even the above pattern is risky business:) > you're right but we should encourage people to adopt semantic versionning. It's very powerful when semantic versioning policy is applied. > >>> For now, I implemented a simple solver for static dependency constraints (=1.2). I checked Metacello implementation and it looked to me that approaches are a bit too far to be able to reuse the whole code. For sure, it is not as robust as Metacello is, because you enhanced it for years. >>> What I want now, is to experiment (let's name it) Cargo Package Manager to see if it fits the needs. Pharo bootstrap is the first use case. >> okay, so this is just in the experimental phases .... so for the time being I should be focussing my efforts on the minimal Metacello approach rather than get involved in the Cargo Package Manager? > What I wanted to say is that is still experimental for me because it does not have yet users. > Maybe we could take Gemstone and GLASS/GSDevKit package as a use case and see if Cargo fits your needs. I would really enjoy to join forces and have a better solution. > What are your requirements for having GLASS/GSDevKit loadable into GemStone. > Do you have a deadline? > I will have more time starting November (for now, I work on the bootstrap with Max for 2 weeks). post-November will work best for me as I am targeting a talk on GsDevKit_home and tODE for Smalltalks in November ... I don't have a deadline, but the need to have FileTree and Metacello-lite integrated in the base GemStone is bubbling close to the top ... and post-November would be a good time ... Dale

Oct. 14, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] About Magritte Seaside

by Dale Henrichs

On 10/14/2015 12:15 AM, Christophe Demarey wrote: > > Le 12 oct. 2015 Ã 19:01, Dale Henrichs a Ã©crit : > >> >> >> On 10/12/2015 01:42 AM, Christophe Demarey wrote: >>> Hi Dale, >>> >>> Le 11 oct. 2015 Ã 00:40, Dale Henrichs a Ã©crit : >>> >>>> Christophe, >>>> >>>> I still don't have a lot of time to read the paper and try to >>>> understand what you are trying to accomplish, but I am curious how >>>> you think "package dependencies" will play with git-based projects? >>> >>> Dependencies are not tied to a Version Control System (monticello, >>> git or whatever). Dependencies are a package concern. >>> With a released version, at the end, we need to fech source code >>> from a VCS (as we do not have a shared binary format): these steps >>> are already done by MC*Repository classes, including git. >> Yes but I am asking specifically how this link is specified ... in >> Metacello, you use repository descriptions to identify the source >> repository. I am curious how you specify these cross repository >> dependencies ... or do you even support cross-repository dependencies? > > I also use repository descriptions as in Metacello. Here is an example > of serialized metadata of a package with cargo: > > CGOPackageUnit { > #package : #Grease-Core, > #description : ''Core package of the Grease library.'', > #version : ''1.1.13'', > #timestamp : DateAndTime [ ''2015-04-14T14:51:50.116+00:00'' ], > #dependencies : [ ], > #repositories : [ > ''http://smalltalkhub.foo/mc/Seaside/Grease11/main/'' > ], > #file : ''Grease-Core-JohanBrichau.94'' > } > I was asking about cross repository dependencies and in this example your #dependencies array is empty ... What repository does the CGOPackageUnit reside in? >>> >>>> In git-based repositories I don't think you have the same type of >>>> dependency issues that one might have with monticello repositories >>>> --- In a monticello repository you have a whole range of possible >>>> package versions to pick from, but in a git-based repository the >>>> range of package versions is fixed to those that are committed >>>> together so the packages that are meant to work together are >>>> committed together. >>> >>> Git allows you to easily reference a set of packages working >>> together. It works fine for packages of the same repository but you >>> get back the problem since you deal with packages of other repositories. >> right and in Metacello the cross-repository specifications is handled >> by a project spec: >> >> spec >> baselineOf: 'Seaside' >> repository: 'github://SeasideSt/Seaside:v3.2.0/repository' >> >> In this case the git version is specified as part of the repository >> spec (v3.2.0 is a git tag) ... it gets back to how do you handle >> cross repository references? > > I get metadata on packages at the same central place: the package > repository (You could have more that one if needed, e.g. a private > package repository). So you have a completely separate repository of packages.... On a sort of related note ... you are talking about packages here as if they were a complete unit, but my experience with packages is that they are very rarely completely standlone entities ... Most of my projects involve multiple packages that are tightly coupled to each other ... Am I expected to first register each package in the central repository (or private repository) before I can even think of composing a multi-package project ... I assume that I am missing something here ... > In the package metadata, I have the information to get back the source > code artifact (repositories and file fields). > >>>> In the bootstrap scenario, you would only have one version per >>>> package to choose from, so the packages that are meant to work >>>> together are committed together .... >>> >>> For the first step of the bootstrap, it will work but not for next >>> steps where we will split the Pharo image into different projects. >> and how are project dependencies handled? It seems that the project >> dependencies are intimately tied to package dependencies as often the >> project dependency itself comes from a specific set of packages and >> needs to be specified at the package level ... > > in the current implementation, there is no distinction between a > project dependency (an external dependency) and a package dependency > (an internal dependency, i.e. a dependency to a package of the same > project). except that they are presumably specified differently? an example specification would be useful here ... > >>> >>>> I guess I don't know what you mean when you say: >>>>> we want to decouple a released version of a package from the >>>>> working copy of the package version description (implies the >>>>> creation of a package repository + a web interface on top of it to >>>>> promote/search packages). >>>> Perhaps a description of the problem being solved would help me >>>> understand. >>> >>> When you develop, you have a working copy of a package meta-data, >>> including dependencies. Actually, there are current dependencies of >>> the package. You could avoid to refer to specific versions and just >>> point to the package name as your working image should already have >>> packages loaded. (kind of configurationOf baseline) >> This is a BaselineOf in Metacello ... and does exactly what you talk >> about here ... > > yes >>> When you release a version (strong act), then you "freeze" the >>> current working version of the package meta-data and you publish it >>> somewhere (a package repository) so that it becomes available to >>> others. This metadata is not source cod, is easily accessible by >>> tools and it becomes easy to build a web site on top of this to >>> search / promote packages. >>> So, the problems I'm trying to solve there are: >>> >>> * do not be tied to a VCS and do not need to load code to "play" >>> with packages metadata >>> >> As I've mentioned in another message, there is no reason other than a >> lack of tools that the Metacello specifications (ConfigurationOf and >> BaselineOf) are not stored in XML/JSON/STON files ... I never liked >> the idea that code had to be loaded, but it was expedient at the time ... > I understand > >>> * offer a central place to easily find the package you need (for >>> example, java has http://central.sonatype.org/, php has >>> https://packagist.org/, etc.) >>> >> I am curious about your use of the term "package" here ... is this >> "package" as in Monticello package, > no >> or "package" as in a collection of packages and project dependencies >> ... or ConfigurationOf or BaselineOf? > package : the unit you want to deliver. > It may be a package unit refering to one Monticello package or a > package assembly, i.e. a set of package units and so, a set of > Monticello packages. okay and an assembly of packages looks like? > > >>> * do not mix preoccupations: I do not want to have metadata of all >>> released versions + working copy of a package at the same place >>> >> Have you looked at a BaselineOf? > > Yes, I like it but it is not available for Monticello. If we did not > have Monticello but git instead, life would be easier. A BaselineOf can be used with a Monticello repository but it devolves to a #bleedingEdge specification which is a nightmare ... Life should be easy ... I guess if your main focus is providing an alternate solution for Monticello repositories then I wish you luck... I don't have the cycles available to try to bridge the gap between Monticello repositories and git repositories ... I prefer to spend my time making git repositories usable with Smalltalk:) > >> I also don't like the fact that ConfigurationOf has release and >> version information embedded in it ... but the ConfigurationOf was >> invented to plug the gap between what was available in the Monticello >> eco-system and what is available in a full-featured scm like git. > > good to know historical reasons ;) > >> The BaselineOf was invented because git was able to take care of all >> of version relationships and Metacello no longer needed all of that >> junk. >> >> If you look at a BaselineOf you will see that it is reduced to a >> single baseline method with package dependencies specified by name >> (the entire BaselineOf applies to all of the packages in a directory >> on disk managed by git or whatever) very simple very compact and very >> easy to maintain ... the only reason one touches a BaselineOf is to >> change a dependency.... >> >> So I think that for what you seem to need all that needs to be done >> is to define an XML/JSON/STON representation for the data in a >> BaselineOf ... a generator for a different format could easily be >> written and could take existing BaselineOf and spit out the data ... > > But how do you handle dependencies of projects using Monticello? > A BaselineOf can specify a dependency on another project and that project may be a BaselineOf or a ConfigurationOf ... A ConfigurationOf can be serialized to STON just like a BaselineOf ... it will just have a lot more junk it ... junk that is managed by git in a git repository ... Dale

Oct. 14, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] TestPGConnection>>testNotify2 fails

by Esteban A. Maringolo

Problem Â¿solved? I ran the test against a PostgreSQL 9.2 and the test passed. However the test passes... but it is failing silently, because it should raise a NoticeResponse and it's throwing a PGErrorResponse instead. It seems like this has been buried for years, and because nobody ever complained about it I guess nobody uses it. Regards! Esteban A. Maringolo 2015-10-14 14:20 GMT-03:00 Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com>: > I have a failing test in my computer when running the test mentioned > in the subject, I get the following error: "PGConnection has a > defective state machine" > > Stack: > PGConnection(Object)>>error: > PGConnection(PGActiveObject)>>stCantHappen: > PGConnection>>stCantHappen: > PGConnection(PGActiveObject)>>processEvent: > PGConnection(PGActiveObject)>>generateEvent:to: > PGConnection(PGActiveObject)>>saProcessEventsUntil: > PGConnection>>copy:withStream: > TestPGConnection>>testNotify2 > > I tested in my computer with Pharo4, Pharo3 and Pharo2, and I get the > same error in all the images with the latest version of it, and also > with the oldest I could load (in Pharo 2, Name: PostgresV2-Maiano.24). > > My PostgreSQL server version is 9.3.7. > > Does it fail for you too? > > Regards! > > Esteban.

Oct. 14, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] what is NativeBoost?

by Max Leske

> On 14 Oct 2015, at 17:20, Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Max, if I were to call a blocking 'select' call for NIO, do you think it would lock the image? Thx Yes. Only callbacks can work asynchronously. > > --- > robert > >> On Oct 14, 2015, at 11:13 AM, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >>> On 14 Oct 2015, at 17:01, Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> I ran across it browsing and it looks pretty interesting. It's purpose remains a mystery to to me. >> >> NativeBoost provides an FFI. Itâs used by Athens for example to render the fonts in Pharo using Cairo (http://cairographics.org) >> >> Cheers, >> Max >> >>> >>> -- >>> thanks so much ^^ >>> Robert >> >> >

Oct. 14, 2015

TestPGConnection>>testNotify2 fails

by Esteban A. Maringolo

I have a failing test in my computer when running the test mentioned in the subject, I get the following error: "PGConnection has a defective state machine" Stack: PGConnection(Object)>>error: PGConnection(PGActiveObject)>>stCantHappen: PGConnection>>stCantHappen: PGConnection(PGActiveObject)>>processEvent: PGConnection(PGActiveObject)>>generateEvent:to: PGConnection(PGActiveObject)>>saProcessEventsUntil: PGConnection>>copy:withStream: TestPGConnection>>testNotify2 I tested in my computer with Pharo4, Pharo3 and Pharo2, and I get the same error in all the images with the latest version of it, and also with the oldest I could load (in Pharo 2, Name: PostgresV2-Maiano.24). My PostgreSQL server version is 9.3.7. Does it fail for you too? Regards! Esteban.

Oct. 14, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] what is NativeBoost?

by Robert Withers

Well, yes, I have not much use for this in my projects. The example of FFI, however, it great to find. thanks so much ^^ Robert On 10/14/2015 12:48 PM, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > So to summarise the great thing about NB is that it does assembly code > with pharo syntax, the bad thing about NB is that it does assembly code > with pharo syntax. > > Of course there are not that many people around to be sane enough to > write assembly , so of course it will be removed at some point. > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:36 PM Robert Withers > <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Awesome! SO you can do emulation. That's fantastic. > > thanks so much ^^ > Robert > > On 10/14/2015 12:30 PM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: > > it allows you to define and execute assembly code in the image. > > > > Esteban > > > >> On 14 Oct 2015, at 18:24, Robert Withers > <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> wrote: > >> > >> I'd think there's just as much concern with all the globals. > What does ASMJIT do? a Jit? > >> > >> thanks so much ^^ > >> Robert > >> > >> On 10/14/2015 11:18 AM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: > >>> but bewareâ¦ ASMJIT part of NB (and wellâ¦ NB it self, that > means) will fade awayâ¦ > >>> it will remain compatible (95% of the cases), but we will > unload itâ¦ there is a lot of maintainability and security concerns > around it. > >>> > >>> Esteban > >>> > >>> > >>>> On 14 Oct 2015, at 17:13, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com > <mailto:maxleske@gmail.com>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On 14 Oct 2015, at 17:01, Robert Withers > <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I ran across it browsing and it looks pretty interesting. > It's purpose remains a mystery to to me. > >>>> > >>>> NativeBoost provides an FFI. Itâs used by Athens for example > to render the fonts in Pharo using Cairo (http://cairographics.org) > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> Max > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> thanks so much ^^ > >>>>> Robert > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > >

Oct. 14, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] what is NativeBoost?

by Dimitris Chloupis

So to summarise the great thing about NB is that it does assembly code with pharo syntax, the bad thing about NB is that it does assembly code with pharo syntax. Of course there are not that many people around to be sane enough to write assembly , so of course it will be removed at some point. On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:36 PM Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Awesome! SO you can do emulation. That's fantastic. > > thanks so much ^^ > Robert > > On 10/14/2015 12:30 PM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: > > it allows you to define and execute assembly code in the image. > > > > Esteban > > > >> On 14 Oct 2015, at 18:24, Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > >> I'd think there's just as much concern with all the globals. What does > ASMJIT do? a Jit? > >> > >> thanks so much ^^ > >> Robert > >> > >> On 10/14/2015 11:18 AM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: > >>> but bewareâ¦ ASMJIT part of NB (and wellâ¦ NB it self, that means) will > fade awayâ¦ > >>> it will remain compatible (95% of the cases), but we will unload itâ¦ > there is a lot of maintainability and security concerns around it. > >>> > >>> Esteban > >>> > >>> > >>>> On 14 Oct 2015, at 17:13, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On 14 Oct 2015, at 17:01, Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I ran across it browsing and it looks pretty interesting. It's > purpose remains a mystery to to me. > >>>> > >>>> NativeBoost provides an FFI. Itâs used by Athens for example to > render the fonts in Pharo using Cairo (http://cairographics.org) > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> Max > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> thanks so much ^^ > >>>>> Robert > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > >

Oct. 14, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] what is NativeBoost?

by Robert Withers

Awesome! SO you can do emulation. That's fantastic. thanks so much ^^ Robert On 10/14/2015 12:30 PM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: > it allows you to define and execute assembly code in the image. > > Esteban > >> On 14 Oct 2015, at 18:24, Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I'd think there's just as much concern with all the globals. What does ASMJIT do? a Jit? >> >> thanks so much ^^ >> Robert >> >> On 10/14/2015 11:18 AM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: >>> but bewareâ¦ ASMJIT part of NB (and wellâ¦ NB it self, that means) will fade awayâ¦ >>> it will remain compatible (95% of the cases), but we will unload itâ¦ there is a lot of maintainability and security concerns around it. >>> >>> Esteban >>> >>> >>>> On 14 Oct 2015, at 17:13, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 14 Oct 2015, at 17:01, Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I ran across it browsing and it looks pretty interesting. It's purpose remains a mystery to to me. >>>> >>>> NativeBoost provides an FFI. Itâs used by Athens for example to render the fonts in Pharo using Cairo (http://cairographics.org) >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Max >>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> thanks so much ^^ >>>>> Robert >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > >

Oct. 14, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] binary serialization

by Robert Withers

On 10/14/2015 11:37 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Robert Withers > <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > On 10/14/2015 11:01 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > Robert, > > As far as I can remember, the problem of substitutions at > materialziation time was because... as you may have read, Fuel first > serializes "objects" and then the references. At materialization, it > first creates the objects and then, on a second step, sets the > references betwen objects. So the problem was WHERE to place the > hook, > at which point in time. If we do it just after objects were created, > then the substitution code would NOT have access to any of the > instVars > of that object. If we do it AFTER objects creation and after objects > references, then there is no easy way to "substitute" which doesn't > involve #become: (because the graph is already constructed) And > you know > that #become: is still terrible slow because it scans full > memory. That > will change in Spur. > > > The trick I learned from Gemstone is to use forwarding proxies, > > > Well, Spur will/does something similar called lazy become. Basically it > lets a forwarding pointer object and then takes advantage of next GC > pass or whatever in order to resolve such proxy in lazy manner. > > looking up into the FLobjectId dictionary (decoder>>objects?) when > stitching the references. When you copy the proxies on substitution, > it stitches normally at reference time. > > > Yes, that could work. The problem is if you need instVars of the object > you want to substitute. Imagine you have a class called Client and > instVar 'age'. And you want to substitute Client with instances of > OldClient if 'age' is > 10. At that point in time, the reference to the > instVar 10 has not yet been filled. Yet, you need to replace the object > at graph construction time. > Ok, so a depth-first, node post-apply would allow ivars to substitute before they are accessed when the container may substitute, lazy as you point out. thanks so much ^^ Robert > > > As for Marea and Ghost, > > Ghost proxies paper: https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01081236/document > Current Ghost repo: http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~CAR/Ghost > > Marea paper: http://www.jot.fm/issues/issue_2013_01/article2.pdf > Current repo: http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/Marea.html > > And finally, my PhD thesis: > https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-00764991/document > > > Nicely done, sir. I'll check them out, thankyou. > > > Thanks, feel free to ask questions. > > In Marea I needed custom clusters for my proxies because the > serializer > itself sends messages to the objects being serialized. My > proxies would > bring back graphs from a secondary memory. So if I was serializing a > graph that had proxies already, I didn't want that. So I hooked my > custom cluster for proxies that send only a few special messages > to the > proxy that these understand and answer rather than intercept those > messages. > > As for how to extend Fuel for this, I recommend to check the code of > Marea. See categories 'Marea-Serializers' and 'Marea-Proxies'. > I have a Marea one click here: > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xp8jzyypmz0898j/AACRdHno6V7UfhaJ1ofTPPXva?dl=0 > > Cheers, > > > thanks so much ^^ > Robert > > > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 11:40 AM, Robert Withers > <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > Good morning, Max. Thank you for the example. I got a little > confused, between migrations and substitutions. My issue > with no-arg > blocks, I believe, is the inability to access my scope > object to > maintain the object tables. > > I'm attempting to write my own Materializer, Decoder and > Materialization. At the moment, I'm just going to walk the > graph, > testing and do #becomes:. See how well that works when I > get a test. > > It's really good to know about that other list. > > thanks so much ^^ > Robert > > On 10/14/2015 04:15 AM, Max Leske wrote: > > BTW, there is a dedicated Fuel mailing list: > pharo-fuel(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > <mailto:pharo-fuel@lists.gforge.inria.fr> > <mailto:pharo-fuel@lists.gforge.inria.fr > <mailto:pharo-fuel@lists.gforge.inria.fr>> > <mailto:pharo-fuel@lists.gforge.inria.fr > <mailto:pharo-fuel@lists.gforge.inria.fr> > <mailto:pharo-fuel@lists.gforge.inria.fr > <mailto:pharo-fuel@lists.gforge.inria.fr>>> > > Max > > > On 14 Oct 2015, at 09:45, Max Leske > <maxleske(a)gmail.com <mailto:maxleske@gmail.com> > <mailto:maxleske@gmail.com <mailto:maxleske@gmail.com>> > <mailto:maxleske@gmail.com > <mailto:maxleske@gmail.com> <mailto:maxleske@gmail.com > <mailto:maxleske@gmail.com>>>> wrote: > > > On 14 Oct 2015, at 04:39, Robert Withers > <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>>> wrote: > > > On 10/13/2015 09:43 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck > wrote: > > > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 10:33 PM, Robert > Withers > <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>>> wrote: > > Hi Mariano, > > This presents me with a big challenge, > then. I > read the docs and > explored the code and the only other > aspect not > mentioned, beyond > instance creation (#fuelNew #fuelNew:) and > postMaterialization > (#fuelAfterMaterialization), is migrations. > However, migration only > allows for instanceVar mappings, no code > blocks. > > > What do you mean that migrations only > allows instVar > mappings , and no > code blocks? I mean, what do you mean by > code blocks? > > > Sounds to me like this (see FuelOutStackDebuAction): > > serializeTestFailureContext: aContext toFileNamed: > aFilename > | serializer | > > serializer := FLSerializer newDefault. > self encodeDebugInformationOn: serializer. > serializer addPostMaterializationAction: [ > :materialization | > Smalltalk tools debugger > openOn: Processor activeProcess > context: materialization root > label: 'External stack' > contents: nil > fullView: false ]. > > serializer > " use the sender context, generally the current > context is not > interesting" > serialize: aContext > toFileNamed: aFilename > > This stores a block in the serialization which is > evaluated > after > materialization. The only requirement is that itâs > a clean > block (no > closure!). > > We also support class renames. This is here: > http://rmod.inria.fr/web/software/Fuel/Version1.9/Documentation/Migration?_… > > Which kind of migration example you have in > mind > that would not be > supported? An example would help. > > > Well, my pics will demonstrate. I am interested > in doing > more than > mappping ivars or a class rename. I want to do > a total > substitution, > then a further substitution on the receiving, > import side: > > Vat1: anObject (Class A) ---> On wire: desc > (Descriptor) > ---> Vat2: > aProxy (Class FarERef) > > A desc is substituted for a PassByProxy object, > then a > FarERef is > substituted for the desc. > > > #fuelAccept: is a serialization side method. > > If Fuel supports substitution on > serialization, I > don't understand > why no substitution support on > materialization. > > > There was a reason, which I cannot remember > completely. Maybe Martin or > Max can remember. > > > It seems your focus was pickling to disk then > back. My > focus is > distributed proxy graphs, which has different > use cases. > > > > I am definitely going to use the > world-class Fuel > binary > serialization system. However, I find myself > needing to extend Fuel > to support substitution on materialization. > Perhaps the solution is > a custom decoder. > > > I have made custom clusters for example for > my Ghost > proxies of Marea > system. It was a perfect example of how I could > extent Fuel besides the > common hooks. Fuel provides many places for > extending , like clusters, > analyzer, etc > > > Right on, exactly! Could you tell me more about > your > Ghost proxies > and Marea, please? As well, could you mention > how you > select a custom > cluster on the serialization side? > > > thanks so much ^^ > Robert > > > > No, a bit more. It looks like I need a new > FLSubstitutePointerObjectCluster, write > them on > serialization with > the substitute, then do unsubstitution on > materialization, since the > cluster controls materialization and not > the decoder. > > Does this approach seem sound to you, > from a you > know architecture > and design approach? > > > There was an issue. Hope other can > remember. If not, > I will try to > explan what I remember tomorrow. > > > thanks so much ^^ > Robert > > On 10/13/2015 04:49 PM, Mariano Martinez > Peck wrote: > > No, unfortunately, as far as I can > remember, > we do not have > that. There > are another hooks you may use but > only in > certain scenarios > (#fuelNew, > #fuelAfterMaterialization, global sends, > etc). But everything is > listed > in > http://rmod.inria.fr/web/software/Fuel/Version1.9/Documentation/Customizing… > so if you didn't find anything of > help in > there there are > chances > there isn't anything. > > Cheers, > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 5:30 PM, > Robert Withers > <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>>>> wrote: > > Yes, I meant dynamic > substitution on > materialization, to > use the > correct terminology. > > thanks, > Robert > > > On 10/13/2015 11:40 AM, Max > Leske wrote: > > > On 13 Oct 2015, at > 17:16, Robert > Withers > > <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>> > > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>>>> wrote: > > Every extra source > helps, thank > you. I see how to do > non-stream substitutions on > materializations, but the > documentation did not > indicate a > way to do non-stream > substitutions on > serialization. > Is it possible? > > > I donât understand what you > mean by > ânon-streamâ. Could > you give > an example? > > > thanks, > Robert > > On 10/13/2015 09:00 AM, > Mariano > Martinez Peck wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > As for the > documentation, > you have LOTS of > tests, you > have the chapter > Torsten pasted, you > have > this documentation: > http://rmod.inria.fr/web/software/Fuel > > But also, as for > internals, > there is a journal > paper we > wrote: > http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/archives/papers/Dias12a-SPE-Fuel.pdf > > Let us know how it > goes, > > > On Tue, Oct 13, > 2015 at 6:00 > AM, Torsten Bergmann > <astares(a)gmx.de > <mailto:astares@gmx.de> > <mailto:astares@gmx.de > <mailto:astares@gmx.de>> <mailto:astares@gmx.de > <mailto:astares@gmx.de> > <mailto:astares@gmx.de > <mailto:astares@gmx.de>>> > <mailto:astares@gmx.de > <mailto:astares@gmx.de> <mailto:astares@gmx.de > <mailto:astares@gmx.de>>> > <mailto:astares@gmx.de > <mailto:astares@gmx.de> > <mailto:astares@gmx.de > <mailto:astares@gmx.de>> <mailto:astares@gmx.de > <mailto:astares@gmx.de> > <mailto:astares@gmx.de > <mailto:astares@gmx.de>>>> > > <mailto:astares@gmx.de <mailto:astares@gmx.de> > <mailto:astares@gmx.de > <mailto:astares@gmx.de>> <mailto:astares@gmx.de > <mailto:astares@gmx.de> > <mailto:astares@gmx.de > <mailto:astares@gmx.de>>> > <mailto:astares@gmx.de > <mailto:astares@gmx.de> > <mailto:astares@gmx.de > <mailto:astares@gmx.de>> <mailto:astares@gmx.de > <mailto:astares@gmx.de> > <mailto:astares@gmx.de > <mailto:astares@gmx.de>>>>>> wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > Also checkout the > chapter on Fuel in Pharo > Enterprise book: > > https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/view/Books/job/EnterprisePharoBook/l… > > Bye > Torsten > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 13. Oktober 2015 um > > 09:44 Uhr > > Von: "Robert Withers" > > > <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>> > > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>>> > > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>> > > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>>>>> > > An: pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>> > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>>> > > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>>> > > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>> > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>>>> > > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>> > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>>> > > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>> > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>>>>> > > Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] binary > > serialization > > > Yes, I have to do object substitutions. > > Thanks > for the link! > > > thanks, > Robert > > On 10/13/2015 03:43 AM, Max Leske wrote: > > > On 13 Oct 2015, at 09:40, > Robert Withers > > > <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>> > > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>>> > > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>> > > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>>>>> wrote: > > > Sven and Torsten, that's a binary > > serialization > library! It > will take time > to learn > it and how to use > mappers. > > > What is the format; is it language > > neutral? > > > For quick serialization you donât > > need to do > anything. It works > for (almost) all > objects. Only if you > want to > exclude things or > treat some > objects in a > special way, you > will need > to do some stuff. > > > Documentation: > > http://rmod.inria.fr/web/software/Fuel. > > > > > thanks, > Robert > > On 10/13/2015 01:21 AM, Sven Van > > Caekenberghe > wrote: > > Yes, it is called FUEL and > it is a > > standard > part of the > image. See > FLSerializer > and FLMaterializer. > > > On 13 Oct 2015, at > 06:59, Robert > > Withers > > <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>> > > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>>> > > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>> > > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com> > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com > <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>>>>>> wrote: > > > Does Pharo have stream > classes to > > binary > de/serialize an > object, such > that the > protocol accepts an > object as > an argument and > converts it to > a byteArray? > > > -- > thanks, > Robert > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > > > > > > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > > > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > <Exporting Vat.jpg><Importing Vat.jpg> > > > > > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > > > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Oct. 14, 2015