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Re: [Pharo-dev] [Vm-dev] OT: Convince me github is a wise choice

by phil＠highoctane.be

Git is a DVCS. Github happens to be hosting repos, but it is just a remote that one pushes to. You can have multiple remotes and push to them. So, a project can have a couple remotes to push/pull to/from. e.g. I have a couple things going on now where one company uses github private repos and another is on bitbucket. No issue adding both remotes and synching both repos. One can also have its own Gitlab, http://gogs.io, or whatever git hosting provider or your own git daemon ( https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2/Git-on-the-Server-Git-Daemon) The main thing is then the issues list and PR flow which is not a Git thing per se. So, two things here: - convince to use git (which is IMHO a no-brainer vs SVN) - convince to use github (which is a good proposal, but bitbucket has nice advantages too) The greatest advantage is that everyone having cloned the repo has the full history (provided one does a fetch --all for getting all branches). So, it would be close to impossible to lose the code even if providers go down. For command line users, check out tig (http://jonas.nitro.dk/tig/manual.html) which is really a great ncurses based git client. Can see about everything very easily. For some git power, check also: git mergetool git difftool which allow do diff/merge branches without trouble. Phil Phil On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 9:37 PM, Peter UhnÃ¡k <i.uhnak(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > well, googlecode closed didn't it? > > and it was not a small affair either > > And all you needed was to click on a button and magically it was on github. > > But this is very different scenario to what the worry is about. > When GitHub one day closes GoogleCode style, then there is nothing to > worry about, because there will be time to move to something better. > The worry is when it is sudden without time. > > Peter > >

Dec. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Adapting the launcher to Spur VM

by Stephan Eggermont

On 17/12/15 22:04, David T. Lewis wrote: >> On 17-12-15 18:21, Eliot Miranda wrote: >>> Hi Stephan, >>> >>> I love you too ;-). Just in case you weren't aware David Lewis' >>> ImageFormat package on http://source.squeak.org/VMMaker contains the >>> "official" approach to image version ids and will provide you with "the >>> official way" (tm) to test for a Spur image, including 64-bits. >> >> Ah, there is a lot more to do than testing for 6505, I see. >> I suspect ImageFormat needs an update, the last version is from 2011 and >> Spur is suspiciously missing. I'll add that instead. >> >> Stephan >> > > Make sure you got the latest version from the repository, it should be > fully up to date, including the image format info for the 64-bit Spur > image. Ah, that is not the same as squeaksource.com ... My mistake Stephan

Dec. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Adapting the launcher to Spur VM

by David T. Lewis

> On 17-12-15 18:21, Eliot Miranda wrote: >> Hi Stephan, >> >> I love you too ;-). Just in case you weren't aware David Lewis' >> ImageFormat package on http://source.squeak.org/VMMaker contains the >> "official" approach to image version ids and will provide you with "the >> official way" (tm) to test for a Spur image, including 64-bits. > > Ah, there is a lot more to do than testing for 6505, I see. > I suspect ImageFormat needs an update, the last version is from 2011 and > Spur is suspiciously missing. I'll add that instead. > > Stephan > Make sure you got the latest version from the repository, it should be fully up to date, including the image format info for the 64-bit Spur image. Dave

Dec. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Adapting the launcher to Spur VM

by Stephan Eggermont

On 17-12-15 18:21, Eliot Miranda wrote: > Hi Stephan, > > I love you too ;-). Just in case you weren't aware David Lewis' > ImageFormat package on http://source.squeak.org/VMMaker contains the > "official" approach to image version ids and will provide you with "the > official way" (tm) to test for a Spur image, including 64-bits. Ah, there is a lot more to do than testing for 6505, I see. I suspect ImageFormat needs an update, the last version is from 2011 and Spur is suspiciously missing. I'll add that instead. Stephan

Dec. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] Are Critical Tools Becoming Too Brittle?

by Tudor Girba

Would certainly be interesting. Until mirrors come, I would still use the primitives as there are only a few places and we can adapt later on again. Cheers, Doru > On Dec 17, 2015, at 8:06 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > We should integrate the Mirror package of guillermo. But he was busy and sick. > > Stef > > > Le 16/12/15 23:03, Esteban A. Maringolo a Ã©crit : >> Yeap, they are in the VM, I used them with the fileout you sent me. >> I guess Tudor was referring to the spur *image* and not the VM. >> >> The issue is already opened: >> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17170/Context-missing-primitives >> Esteban A. Maringolo >> >> >> 2015-12-16 18:55 GMT-03:00 Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com>: >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 12:03 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >>>> I am waiting for the Spur image because it should already have the >>>> primitives and I will get back to the ProtoObject issue. Could you open an >>>> issue in the meantime? >>> >>> The mirror primitives should be in the old VM as well. >>> >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Doru >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Dec 16, 2015, at 6:31 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Doru, >>>>> >>>>> Did you fix the issue involving instances of subclasses of ProtoObject? >>>>> >>>>> Esteban A. Maringolo >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2015-12-16 2:46 GMT-03:00 Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com>: >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> Indeed, please help us isolate that case. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Doru >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2015, at 11:49 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I assume you are using the GT inspector. Do you have custom gt >>>>>>> inspector presentations ? Are you sure your #printString is OK ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is also a 'Basic Inspect It' menu item ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Can you isolate it so that we can see it, try it ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 15 Dec 2015, at 23:21, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I just tried to inspect a domain object and I froze my image and had >>>>>>>> to force >>>>>>>> quit. How do I debug this? And, more importantly, when an error is >>>>>>>> encountered in a critical, basic tool like this, should there be some >>>>>>>> reasonable bare-bones alternative, like the emergency debugger? Not >>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>> able to inspect an object without crashing seems like a pretty >>>>>>>> crippling >>>>>>>> situation... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Sean >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> View this message in context: >>>>>>>> http://forum.world.st/Are-Critical-Tools-Becoming-Too-Brittle-tp4867206.html >>>>>>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >>>>>>>> Nabble.com. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>>> www.feenk.com >>>>>> >>>>>> "From an abstract enough point of view, any two things are similar." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> -- >>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>> www.feenk.com >>>> >>>> "Every thing should have the right to be different." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> _,,,^..^,,,_ >>> best, Eliot >> > > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "From an abstract enough point of view, any two things are similar."

Dec. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Vm-dev] OT: Convince me github is a wise choice

by Peter UhnÃ¡k

> well, googlecode closed didn't it? > and it was not a small affair either And all you needed was to click on a button and magically it was on github. But this is very different scenario to what the worry is about. When GitHub one day closes GoogleCode style, then there is nothing to worry about, because there will be time to move to something better. The worry is when it is sudden without time. Peter

Dec. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Vm-dev] OT: Convince me github is a wise choice

by Dimitris Chloupis

Google is king of abandonware , they have closed down half of their software projects, Google Code was just the tip of the iceberg . The other half is close to be abandoned or at least heavily outdated. Moreover google code was crappy anyway, its close down went unnoticed. Github is nowhere anything like Google and its insult to even compare the two. On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 10:26 PM Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo < > emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> 2015-12-17 17:08 GMT-03:00 Nicolas Anquetil <nicolas.anquetil(a)inria.fr>: >> > >> > >> > On 17/12/2015 20:46, Peter UhnÃ¡k wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Ah, that's interesting. So my concern is whether github is a safe >> >>> long-term bet. Specifically what is there to prevent some third >> party from >> >>> buying github, or of github going public and the board taking the >> decision, >> >>> or github on its own, deciding to charge for hosting, keeping the data >> >>> hostage to extract payment? What safeguards are in place to prevent >> this? >> >>> I'm not interested in "this will never happen" arguments. I'm >> interested >> >>> in hard data please. >> >> >> >> GitHub explicitly reserves the right to shut down without notice, >> >> however considering they have ~10M users and ~30M repositories >> >> (ranging from small one-person projects, over programming languages, >> >> to governmental programs), do you really think it is a real scenario? >> > >> > well, googlecode closed didn't it? >> > and it was not a small affair either >> >> Google code was really small compared with Github. >> >> GitHub is monumental. It's to source management what Gmail is to email. >> >> > you never know what might happen in the future (trust a divorced man) >> >> You get half the code? (the part that needs refactoring probably) >> > > > ROTFL > > _,,,^..^,,,_ > thanks, Eliot >

Dec. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Vm-dev] OT: Convince me github is a wise choice

by Eliot Miranda

On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com > wrote: > 2015-12-17 17:08 GMT-03:00 Nicolas Anquetil <nicolas.anquetil(a)inria.fr>: > > > > > > On 17/12/2015 20:46, Peter UhnÃ¡k wrote: > >>> > >>> Ah, that's interesting. So my concern is whether github is a safe > >>> long-term bet. Specifically what is there to prevent some third party > from > >>> buying github, or of github going public and the board taking the > decision, > >>> or github on its own, deciding to charge for hosting, keeping the data > >>> hostage to extract payment? What safeguards are in place to prevent > this? > >>> I'm not interested in "this will never happen" arguments. I'm > interested > >>> in hard data please. > >> > >> GitHub explicitly reserves the right to shut down without notice, > >> however considering they have ~10M users and ~30M repositories > >> (ranging from small one-person projects, over programming languages, > >> to governmental programs), do you really think it is a real scenario? > > > > well, googlecode closed didn't it? > > and it was not a small affair either > > Google code was really small compared with Github. > > GitHub is monumental. It's to source management what Gmail is to email. > > > you never know what might happen in the future (trust a divorced man) > > You get half the code? (the part that needs refactoring probably) > ROTFL _,,,^..^,,,_ thanks, Eliot

Dec. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Vm-dev] OT: Convince me github is a wise choice

by Esteban A. Maringolo

2015-12-17 17:08 GMT-03:00 Nicolas Anquetil <nicolas.anquetil(a)inria.fr>: > > > On 17/12/2015 20:46, Peter UhnÃ¡k wrote: >>> >>> Ah, that's interesting. So my concern is whether github is a safe >>> long-term bet. Specifically what is there to prevent some third party from >>> buying github, or of github going public and the board taking the decision, >>> or github on its own, deciding to charge for hosting, keeping the data >>> hostage to extract payment? What safeguards are in place to prevent this? >>> I'm not interested in "this will never happen" arguments. I'm interested >>> in hard data please. >> >> GitHub explicitly reserves the right to shut down without notice, >> however considering they have ~10M users and ~30M repositories >> (ranging from small one-person projects, over programming languages, >> to governmental programs), do you really think it is a real scenario? > > well, googlecode closed didn't it? > and it was not a small affair either Google code was really small compared with Github. GitHub is monumental. It's to source management what Gmail is to email. > you never know what might happen in the future (trust a divorced man) You get half the code? (the part that needs refactoring probably)

Dec. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Vm-dev] OT: Convince me github is a wise choice

by Nicolas Anquetil

On 17/12/2015 20:46, Peter UhnÃ¡k wrote: >> Ah, that's interesting. So my concern is whether github is a safe long-term bet. Specifically what is there to prevent some third party from buying github, or of github going public and the board taking the decision, or github on its own, deciding to charge for hosting, keeping the data hostage to extract payment? What safeguards are in place to prevent this? >> I'm not interested in "this will never happen" arguments. I'm interested in hard data please. > GitHub explicitly reserves the right to shut down without notice, > however considering they have ~10M users and ~30M repositories > (ranging from small one-person projects, over programming languages, > to governmental programs), do you really think it is a real scenario? well, googlecode closed didn't it? and it was not a small affair either you never know what might happen in the future (trust a divorced man) > Thousands and thousands of extra services directly depend on github; > e.g. package managers like npm or bower pull directly from GH. If they > would shut down, half of the internet would follow. > Now I am not saying that this can't happen, all I am saying is that > worrying that they would shut down from day-to-day without any notice having a notice is only a small part of the problem not that I am against Git, but I an understand the fear nicolas > is baseless, so if anything you should evaluate whether such scenario > is something that you should worry about (compared to your house > burning down or being flooded destroying your computer, home server > and all on-site backup drives, which is something that happens > regularly to people). > > But let's assume that evil corporate aliens send a meteor shower that > hits all github datacenters. > > What are the primary offerings of GitHub? > 1) online git repository > 2) bug tracker > 3) online collaboration > 4) wiki/github pages --- those are just another git repositories, so > it's same as 1) > 5) organizations > 6) other cowbells (graphs, contribution charts, etc. however those are > just aggregations) > > Git is decentralized. So even if you have some central hub, such as > github, or bitbucket, or gitlab, you are not writing your code > directly on the website so at least one of the contributors will have > the latest code. > So if you are unprepared and you are hit by this scenario you don't > lose your code. > > However as someone already pointed out, you can lose your bugs (would > that be great? :)) and comments. If you are worried about it, you can > always make a plan and back it up regularly > https://github.com/joeyh/github-backup > > The only alternative is that you host it yourself (obviously you can't > just use someone else because the issues will apply again). > And now you have a billion of new problems: > 1) you need a home server, or _paid_ virtual server, which costs money > (either in the form of VS, or buying new components and paying for > electricity bills) > 2) you need to maintain it, which costs you time and energy (and time = money) > 3) it will be slower, have worse uptime, and break (because you are > not 500 people, do not have a reliable datacenters and things always > go wrong) > 4) it will not scale (it may be sufficient for you, or internal > projects inside walls of your company; but if you want to open it to > the world (because it is open source) then you have yet another world > of trouble) > 5) you still need to do off-site backups > > So all in all you will trade security of decisions of a malicious > board and exchange it for other, much more realistic problems. > And if such board would do that intentionally, it would definitely end > up in court. > Just because they proclaim in their TOS that they are free of any > responsibility doesn't mean they actually are; especially if they > intentionally mean harm. (And keeping your data hostage is very likely > criminal.) > > To summarize: > 1) use github > 2) make off-site backups > 3) be happy > > Peter > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo > <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> You can have your own Git infraestructure with something like GitLab >> Community Edition (Free) or Enterprise (Paid). >> <https://about.gitlab.com/features> >> >> The "good thing" about Github is that it gives visibility to what you >> do, which for Pharo/Squeak could be a big thing. If all the code in >> SmalltalkHub was moved to Github, the popularity of Smalltalk would go >> to the top 20. >> >> Regards! >> >> Esteban A. Maringolo >> >> >> 2015-12-17 14:37 GMT-03:00 Holger Freyther <holger(a)freyther.de>: >>>> On 17 Dec 2015, at 18:29, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Ben, Hi All, >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> Ah, that's interesting. So my concern is whether github is a safe long-term bet. Specifically what is there to prevent some third party from buying github, or of github going public and the board taking the decision, or github on its own, deciding to charge for hosting, keeping the data hostage to extract payment? What safeguards are in place to prevent this? I'm not interested in "this will never happen" arguments. I'm interested in hard data please. >>> >>> 1.) You will lose bug reports (if you decide to use bugtracker) >>> 2.) You will lose comments/discussion on pull requests >>> 3.) You might lose the wiki content >>> 4.) Unless you and nobody else in this community has the git tree you lose the history of >>> the project. >>> >>> >>> 1.) You might decide not to use their bug tracker? >>> 2.) You might decide not to use the pull request workflow or risk losing some context that >>> is outside the commit message, change. >>> 3.) Don't use it then. >>> 4.) One can mitigate by either automatically synchronising the repo to another place or >>> by having the primary somewhere else (which makes 2nd more hard than it should be). >>> >>> => long term. Keep a backup of the repo (and with git you always have that anyway) and >>> if they kick everyone out, push it to another server. >>> >>> I hope this helps. >>> >>> holger >>> >>> >>> >>> PS: For my C level GSM stuff we run our own git infrastructure on git.osmocom.org and >>> github is mirroring some of the repos to github.com/osmocom. This way people can discover >>> our sources more easily, we discover 'forks' but right now we don't use the pull request system >>> at all. -- Nicolas Anquetil RMod team -- Inria Lille

Dec. 17, 2015