- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Why there is no setting to disable QA?

by Yuriy Tymchuk

Thatâs the point. Someone finds this disruptive, someone instructing. But itâs always a true information. So here we are not dealing with the faults of algorithm but with a way we are communicating a data with a user. Thatâs why I kindly ask not to call this things âfalse positivesâ :). I thinks that it makes sense to be bale to disable some critics by their severity. Also I think that itâs a good thing to teach beginners to write class comments. You donât need special skills for that and making it a habit from the beginning will payoff in the future. Cheers. Uko > On 17 Jan 2016, at 16:11, Cyril Ferlicot D. <cyril.ferlicot(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Le 17/01/2016 16:04, stepharo a Ã©crit : >> We have also >> instance variables not written or read >> class comment is empty >> >> And I find that disruptive for a student starting with Pharo. >> > > I find that instructing. > When I create a class and I see those messages it's like "objectives". I > need to correct that and it help me not to avoid the documentation. > > -- > Cyril Ferlicot > > http://www.synectique.eu > > 165 Avenue Bretagne > Lille 59000 France >

Jan. 17, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [squeak-dev] Re: [Pharo-project] [Vm-dev] Re: Can OSProcess functionality be implemented using FFI instead of plugin?

by Eliot Miranda

> On Jan 17, 2016, at 8:53 AM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Levente, > >>> On Jan 17, 2016, at 7:30 AM, Levente Uzonyi <leves(a)caesar.elte.hu> wrote: >>> >>> On Sat, 16 Jan 2016, Eliot Miranda wrote: >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Levente Uzonyi <leves(a)caesar.elte.hu> wrote: >>> >>> On Sat, 16 Jan 2016, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: >>> >>> (Still no quote.) >>> >>> How will you read the output of the process without having your image's process blocked in the FFI callout? >>> How will you make sure that writes to input of the process won't block the FFI callout? >>> This presupposes the threaded FFI. The threaded FFI allows the VM to make any number of blocking calls, adding a new thread to run the VM whenever the VM is stalled when the heartbeat beats. hence one can freely read and write to/from i/o blocking i/o streams >>> (including pipes and sockets) or blocking database connexions, etc, all without stating that the FFI call must be done in a special way, since all calls through the FFI can block without blocking the VM. >> >> I think it was you who said (in a discussion with Craig) that the threaded FFI was not production ready. Is it ready for produciton now? > > No, but I expect this is the year it will be. Spur provides pinning, so the VM infrastructure is there. The Pharo community plus some commercial relationships that have developed are providing funding. Esteban Lorenzano and I want to collaborate on this and I hope to get help from some other people, such as Ronie Salgado. And Mariano is working on an important part of the problem. So I feel there's sufficient momentum for us to realize the threaded FFI this year. and when Craig Latta tried to use it late last year it worked up to a point. The thing that didn't work was callbacks from foreign threads. So it looks like the core threading code is not too far away from working. Another really important part, bigger than threading, is marshaling. Being able to handle the full x85_64 abi requires a better approach than interpreting tops signatures. Igor's NativeBoost gave an example of how to generate marshaling machine code, but alas only for x86. But Sista includes an extensible bytecode set for arbitrary instructions. Sista is close to production, and we know the bytecode set works. So the plan is to use these bytecodes to do the marshaling. That neatly solves the problems of a) associating marshaling machine code with a method and b) marshaling in an interpreted stack VM, since the bytecode set works in any Cog VM. So the plan is to write an ABI compiler from C signatures to marshaling code to replace the interpreted FFI plugin. So this year I hope we will have an excellent high performance FFI. >> Levente > > _,,,^..^,,,_ (phone) > >>> Note that the scheme is also amenable to plugins, but the plugins must be rewritten to include the release vm/acquire vm calls around a blocking call. With the threaded VM the FFI includes these calls around every FFI call. >>> HTH >>> _,,,^..^,,,_ >>> best, Eliot

Jan. 17, 2016

roassal2 seems to work well now

by Tudor Girba

Hi, With the latest development, Roassal2 seems to work well. For example, the rendering of the logical view of Glamour browsers was broken, and now it works well. This is great news. Is this just my impression? Do we know if there are still open issues with the FFI in this area? Cheers, Doru -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Every thing should have the right to be different."

Jan. 17, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [squeak-dev] Re: [Pharo-project] [Vm-dev] Re: Can OSProcess functionality be implemented using FFI instead of plugin?

by Dimitris Chloupis

wow impressive work guys , thats awesome news. On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 6:53 PM Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Levente, > > > On Jan 17, 2016, at 7:30 AM, Levente Uzonyi <leves(a)caesar.elte.hu> > wrote: > > > >> On Sat, 16 Jan 2016, Eliot Miranda wrote: > >> > >> On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Levente Uzonyi <leves(a)caesar.elte.hu> > wrote: > >> > >> On Sat, 16 Jan 2016, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > >> > >> (Still no quote.) > >> > >> How will you read the output of the process without having your > image's process blocked in the FFI callout? > >> How will you make sure that writes to input of the process won't > block the FFI callout? > >> This presupposes the threaded FFI. The threaded FFI allows the VM to > make any number of blocking calls, adding a new thread to run the VM > whenever the VM is stalled when the heartbeat beats. hence one can freely > read and write to/from i/o blocking i/o streams > >> (including pipes and sockets) or blocking database connexions, etc, all > without stating that the FFI call must be done in a special way, since all > calls through the FFI can block without blocking the VM. > > > > I think it was you who said (in a discussion with Craig) that the > threaded FFI was not production ready. Is it ready for produciton now? > > No, but I expect this is the year it will be. Spur provides pinning, so > the VM infrastructure is there. The Pharo community plus some commercial > relationships that have developed are providing funding. Esteban Lorenzano > and I want to collaborate on this and I hope to get help from some other > people, such as Ronie Salgado. And Mariano is working on an important part > of the problem. So I feel there's sufficient momentum for us to realize > the threaded FFI this year. > > > Levente > > > _,,,^..^,,,_ (phone) > > >> Note that the scheme is also amenable to plugins, but the plugins must > be rewritten to include the release vm/acquire vm calls around a blocking > call. With the threaded VM the FFI includes these calls around every FFI > call. > >> HTH > >> _,,,^..^,,,_ > >> best, Eliot >

Jan. 17, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [squeak-dev] Re: [Pharo-project] [Vm-dev] Re: Can OSProcess functionality be implemented using FFI instead of plugin?

by Eliot Miranda

Hi Levente, > On Jan 17, 2016, at 7:30 AM, Levente Uzonyi <leves(a)caesar.elte.hu> wrote: > >> On Sat, 16 Jan 2016, Eliot Miranda wrote: >> >> On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Levente Uzonyi <leves(a)caesar.elte.hu> wrote: >> >> On Sat, 16 Jan 2016, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: >> >> (Still no quote.) >> >> How will you read the output of the process without having your image's process blocked in the FFI callout? >> How will you make sure that writes to input of the process won't block the FFI callout? >> This presupposes the threaded FFI. The threaded FFI allows the VM to make any number of blocking calls, adding a new thread to run the VM whenever the VM is stalled when the heartbeat beats. hence one can freely read and write to/from i/o blocking i/o streams >> (including pipes and sockets) or blocking database connexions, etc, all without stating that the FFI call must be done in a special way, since all calls through the FFI can block without blocking the VM. > > I think it was you who said (in a discussion with Craig) that the threaded FFI was not production ready. Is it ready for produciton now? No, but I expect this is the year it will be. Spur provides pinning, so the VM infrastructure is there. The Pharo community plus some commercial relationships that have developed are providing funding. Esteban Lorenzano and I want to collaborate on this and I hope to get help from some other people, such as Ronie Salgado. And Mariano is working on an important part of the problem. So I feel there's sufficient momentum for us to realize the threaded FFI this year. > Levente _,,,^..^,,,_ (phone) >> Note that the scheme is also amenable to plugins, but the plugins must be rewritten to include the release vm/acquire vm calls around a blocking call. With the threaded VM the FFI includes these calls around every FFI call. >> HTH >> _,,,^..^,,,_ >> best, Eliot

Jan. 17, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Seeing class method template when there is no protocol

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 17 Jan 2016, at 17:13, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > > > Le 17/1/16 16:09, Sven Van Caekenberghe a Ã©crit : >>> On 17 Jan 2016, at 15:52, Gabriel Cotelli <g.cotelli(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Maybe add a "New Method" button somewhere that changes the class definition with a method template ? >> But only when it is needed. >> >> The overall Nautilus interface is becoming way too busy and distracting. > > Where? > Because we removed features so I'm surprised and we wanted to remove more > but people use them. Let see (this is my personal opinion, not necessarily the most beginner friendly view): - I never use the history navigator, not the drop down, nor the arrows - The previous location of variables was better (small icon) - I never use the weird search/filter field with the pattern - I never use scoped browsing - I never use format as you read - I never want line numbers - I never want to know where the cursor is - I only want critics when I say so, not all the time Again, this is my POV. And I definitively still want to have these features around, I just don't want to *see* them all the time. Spotter gets me to classes & methods, the rest is command-click and short cuts. > Stef > >> >>> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 8:42 AM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >>> HI >>> >>> yesterday during my exercise session a student was puzzled because >>> he could not see the method template on the class side when there is not protocol. >>> I had to create first a protocol. >>> >>> I do not have the solution because I understand why it is like that. Because Nautilus displays >>> the class definition first and when we click on protocol the template. >>> But I would be interested to see if there is an alternative. >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> >> >> > >

Jan. 17, 2016

new debugger shortcuts

by Tudor Girba

Hi, The existing debugger shortcuts are conflicting with code editing shortcuts. Now, I defined the following shortcuts: resume - cmd + r restart - cmd + shift + a over - cmd + shift + o through - cmd + shift + t into - cmd + e There is also a test in GT that checks for double meanings. Please let me know if you see problems with these, and comment on the issue here: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17408/The-generic-stack-debugger-defines-… We want to integrate this as soon as possible, so please react as soon as you can :) Cheers, Doru -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "When people care, great things can happen."

Jan. 17, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Seeing class method template when there is no protocol

by stepharo

Le 17/1/16 16:09, Sven Van Caekenberghe a Ã©crit : >> On 17 Jan 2016, at 15:52, Gabriel Cotelli <g.cotelli(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Maybe add a "New Method" button somewhere that changes the class definition with a method template ? > But only when it is needed. > > The overall Nautilus interface is becoming way too busy and distracting. Where? Because we removed features so I'm surprised and we wanted to remove more but people use them. Stef > >> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 8:42 AM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >> HI >> >> yesterday during my exercise session a student was puzzled because >> he could not see the method template on the class side when there is not protocol. >> I had to create first a protocol. >> >> I do not have the solution because I understand why it is like that. Because Nautilus displays >> the class definition first and when we click on protocol the template. >> But I would be interested to see if there is an alternative. >> >> Stef >> >> > >

Jan. 17, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] gtdebugger in pharo 5.0

by Tudor Girba

Hi, > On Jan 17, 2016, at 1:18 PM, David Allouche <david(a)allouche.net> wrote: > > Cool. While you are there, could provide a way to separate instance variables from local variables (and class shared variables too, maybe)? > It could be different columns, filtering, tabs, I do not really care. Currently, when debugging classes with lots of instance variables (like morphic stuff) it's quite painful to find the one local variable of interest. The tags to the left of each variable can be used to filter the list of variables. > Also, could the scroll position in the variable be preserved while stepping? I am not sure what you refer to. The currently selected variable is preserved both when you step, and it is even preserved when you switch back and forth through the stack. What am I missing? > And could the shortcuts for stepping through code NOT conflict with any shortcut in the source code editor? > Or failing that, could there be a simple, discoverable, reliable shortcut to put the focus on the call stack? Thanks for pointing it out. I added a test for this, and we identified two keybindings with double meaning: - Cmd+p - Cmd+t I added a test for this and an issue: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17408/The-generic-stack-debugger-defines-… In the process, I also noticed that Smart Suggestions have the keybinding defined as $t meta instead of 4t command. I added an issue for this and as well: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17407/Smart-suggestions-shortcut-should-u… > Unfortunately, Pharo does not appear to receive ctrl-tab keydown events, so I need to reach for the mouse to move the focus out of any text areaâ¦ Indeed, this does not work. Cheers, Doru > Sent from my phone. > > > > EnvoyÃ© avec mon tÃ©lÃ©phone. > Le 17 janv. 2016 Ã 09:05, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> a Ã©crit : > >> Hi, >> >> Indeed. See below how it looks like in the latest development version. >> >> We have not yet integrate this one because we still need little changes in FastTable to be able to resize columns and not make the column names clickable. >> >> >> <table-stack-details.png> >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >>> On Jan 17, 2016, at 8:07 AM, Ben Coman <btc(a)openInWorld.com> wrote: >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 9:48 AM, Cyril Ferlicot D. >>> <cyril.ferlicot(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> And more, it make the debugger "ventilated" (I don't know if the term >>>> work in English too). I mean that with more space between the classes >>>> and the methods it's better for the eye of the user. >>> >>> Never heard the term used that way in graphic design, but it makes >>> perfect sense. >>> cheers -ben >>> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> www.feenk.com >> >> "If you can't say why something is relevant, >> it probably isn't." >> -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Innovation comes in the least expected form. That is, if it is expected, it already happened."

Jan. 17, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-project] [Vm-dev] Re: Can OSProcess functionality be implemented using FFI instead of plugin?

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Hi Eliot, Thanks, much clearer now. Sometimes I am slow :) I was confused because I was only thinking in libc kind of lib (very kernel and very likely used by the VM). But when you gave the SQL example, then I did get the general nature you were trying to explain. So it's clear now. I would like to add 2 more comments: 1) Do you agree that besides the name / value it would also help having the result of sizeof ? Otherwise, I may still find problems when I need to allocate from FFI and it's not clear size of a struct (as it was my case same days ago). So in this case, it would be kind of an array rather than a key / value pairs. 2) As for the autogenerated C file, do you think X Macros is a good idea? See http://stackoverflow.com/questions/264269/what-is-a-good-reference-document… Thanks, On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 12:40 AM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Mariano, > > On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 6:25 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck < > marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 11:02 PM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 6:00 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck < >>> marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Sorry for reviving an old thread but I thought it was better to >>>> continue the discussion here because of the context. >>>> As you may have read, the other day I released a first approeach to a >>>> subset of OSProcess based on FFI (posix_spwan() family of functions): >>>> >>>> https://github.com/marianopeck/OSSubprocess >>>> >>>> And with that in mind, I wanted to share a few things with you. The >>>> main 2 problems I found with implementing this with FFI was: >>>> >>>> 1) We have all already agree and discussed that fork+exec cannot be >>>> done in separate FFI calls. So at the very min you need either a plugin >>>> method that does the fork()+exec() OR wrapping a lib like posix_spwan() >>>> >>>> 2) The other main problem, is, as you all said (and mostly Nicolas), >>>> is the problems with the preprocessor (constants, macros, etc). >>>> >>>> With all that said, I was able to get my stuff working. However, I am >>>> still using some primitives of OSProcess plugin because of 2). >>>> >>>> I read Eliot idea and what I don't like is the need of a C compiler in >>>> the user machine. I think that's a high constrain. Then Igor suggested that >>>> WE (developers and maintainers of a certain tool) are the ones that >>>> compiles the little C program to extract constant values etc and then WE >>>> provide as part of our source code, some packages with some SharedPool >>>> depending on the platform/OS. And Igor approach looked a bit better to me. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> You misunderstand the proposal. >>> >> >> I think I did. But let me confirm that below ;) >> >> >>> The C compiler is needed /only when changing the set of constants/, i.e. >>> when /developing/ the interface. The C compiler is /not/ needed when >>> deploying. >>> >>> The idea is to >>> a) at development time, e.g. when a new variable is added to a >>> SharedPool containing platform constants, a C program is autogenerated that >>> outputs in some format a description of the names and values of all the >>> constants defined in the pool. One convenient notation is e.g. STON. For >>> the purposes of this discussion let's assume we're using ston, but any >>> format the image an parse (or indeed a shared object the image can load on >>> teh current pkatform) will do. The output of the autogenerated C program >>> would be called something like <SharedPoolName>.<PlatformName>.ston, e.g. >>> UnixConstants.MacOSX64.ston or UnixConstants.Linux32.ston. The ston files >>> can easily be parsed by facilities in the Smalltalk image. >>> >>> b) when deploying the system to a set of platforms one includes all the >>> relevant platform-specific ston files. >>> >>> >> OK. But let me ask something. Below you said "be it a plugin or a dll >> doesn't matter". To autogenerate the C program, I must know which header >> files to include for each platform and probably a few others things. For >> example, besides exporting the value, I would also like to export the >> sizeof(). At that depends how was the VM compiled, right? So...my >> question is...if such a autogenerated C code could be part of the VM >> building (considering all the settings being assume when building), cannot >> I reuse the knowledge the VM already has? Like which header files >> to include, if it was compiled 32 bits or 64 bits, which C compiler to use, >> etc.. >> > > I actually said that using text is easier than a dll. So I'm saying > autogenerate a C program that outputs name-value pairs in some convenient > textual representation, e.g. ston. But answering your question... > > The knowledge in the VM as to what header files are included *applies only > to the include files the VM uses*. The VM uses a subset of the platform. > It doesn't for example include any headers that define a database > interface. It doesn't include header files that define the interface to a > UI tooklit such at GTK. Etc, etc. So in fact the VM *doesn't* include the > knowledge one needs to determine the set of include files for an arbitrary > FFI interface. And even so, the include files that it does use are in the > VM's platform source files, and that information is not readily accessible. > > Let me summarise. No, the VM cannot be used to determine the set of > include files needed to generate constants used in an arbitrary FFI > interface. > > What I mean is if it would be easier if I take the SharedPool at VM >> building time, and from there I autogenerate (and run) the C code that >> would generate the output. Then, when we "deploy" the VM, we can deploy it >> with relevant platform specific ston files as you said. >> > > No. The VM is something that provides an FFI. It doesn't *define* an > FFI. One must be able to develop an FFI interface without needing to > rebuild the VM. So computing the values of constants should be *separate* > from building a VM. Now let me give you more of an example. > > Let's say we define a subclass of SharedPool called FFISharedPool. > FFISharedPool 's job is to manage autogenerating a C file, compiling it for > the platform, and organizing parsing the relevant output. Let's say we use > a convention like class-side pragmas to define include files, and compiler > flags. The VM provides two crucial pieces of information: > > 1. the platform name > 2. the word size > > One can't run a Mac OS VM on Linux, and one can't run a 64-bit VM on a > 32-bit operating system. So taking this information from the VM accurately > tells the current system what ABI (application binary interface) to use, > and that's what's important in generating the right constants. > > So we use these two pieces of information to index the method pragmas that > tell us what specific files to include. > > Let's imagine we subclass FFISharedPool to add a shared pool for constants > for an SQL database. We might have a class declaration like > > FFISharedPool subclass: #MYSQLInterface > instanceVariableNames: '' > classVariableNames: 'MYSQL_DEFAULT_AUTH MYSQL_ENABLE_CLEARTEXT_PLUGIN > MYSQL_INIT_COMMAND MYSQL_OPT_BIND MYSQL_OPT_CAN_HANDLE_EXPIRED_PASSWORDS > MYSQL_OPT_COMPRESS > MYSQL_OPT_CONNECT_ATTR_DELETE MYSQL_OPT_CONNECT_ATTR_RESET' > poolDictionaries: '' > category: 'MYSQLInterface-Pools' > > The job of FFISharedPool is to compute the right values for the class > variables on every platform we want to deploy the MYSQL interface on. > > So we need to know the relevant include files and C flags for each > platform/word-size combination. A few of them might look like > > > MYSQLInterface class methods for platform information > mac32 > "I describe the include files and C flags to use when developing a > 32-bit MYSQL FFI interface on Mac OS X" > <platformName: 'Mac OS' wordSize: 4> > <cFlags: #('-m32') includeFiles: #('/opt/mysql/include32')> > ^self "all the info is in the pragmas" > > mac64 > "I describe the include files and C flags to use when developing a > 64-bit MYSQL FFI interface on Mac OS X" > <platformName: 'Mac OS' wordSize: 8> > <cFlags: #('-m64') includeFiles: #('/opt/mysql/include64')> > > The above might cause FFISharedPool to autogenerate files called > MYSQLInterface.mac32.c & MYSQLInterface.mac64.c. And these, when run, > might output ston notation to MYSQLInterface.mac32.ston & > MYSQLInterface.mac64.ston (or maybe to stdout which has to be redirected to > MYSQLInterface.mac32.ston; whatever). > > Now, you might use pragmas, or you might answer a Dictionary instance. > What ever style pleases you and seems convenient and readable. But these > methods define the necessary metadata (C flags, include paths, and ...?) > for FFISharedPool to autogenerate the C program that, when compiled with > the supplied C flags and run on the current platform, outputs the values > for the constants the shared pool wants to define. > > > You can get fancy and have FFISharedPool autogenerate the C programs > whenever one adds or removes a constant name. Or you can require the > programmer run something, e.g. MYSQLInterface generateInterfaces. It's > really nice if FFISharedPool submits the file to the C compiler > automatically, but this can only work for e.g. 32 & 64 bit versions on a > single platform. You have to compile the autogenerated program on the > relevant platform, with the necessary libraries and include files installed. > > You could imagine a set of servers for different platforms so one could > submit the autogenerated program for compilation and execution on each > platform. That's a facility I'd make it easy to implement. I could > imagine that a programmer whose company develops an FFI interface and > deploys it on a number of platforms would love to be able to automate > compiling and running the relevant autogenerated code on a set of servers. > I could imagine the Pharo community providing a set of servers upon which > lots of software is installed for precisely this purpose. That means that > people could develop FFI interfaces without even having to have the C > compiler installed on their platform. > > You could also add a C parser to FFISharedPool that parses the > post-preprocessed code and extracts function declarations. But the > important thing is autogenerating the C program so that it generates easily > parsable output containing the values for the constants. You can extend > the system in interesting ways once you ave this core functionality > implemented. > > So once the program is autogenerated and compiled for the current > platform, it is run and its output collected in a file whose name can be > recognised by FFISharedPool. > > > Now the class side of FFISharedPool might be declared as > > FFIShardPool class > instanceVariableNames: 'platformName wordSize' > > and on start-up FFIShardPool could examine its subclasses, and for each > whose platformName & wordSize do not match the current platform, search for > all the matching FOOInterface.plat.ston files, parse them and update the > subclasses' variables, and update that pool's platformName & wordSize. It > could emit a warning on the Transcript or stdout (headful vs headless) > indicating which subclasses it couldn't find the relevant > FOOInterface.plat.ston files for. > > But the end result is that > > a) providing the system is deployed with FOOInterface.plat.ston files for > each interface and platform used, a cross-platform application can be > deployed *that does not require a C compiler*. > b) providing that a system's FOOInterface files have been initialized on > the intended platform, a platform-specific application can be deployed for > a single platform *without needing the ston files*. > > Does this make more sense now? > > c) at startup the image checks its current platform. If the platform is >>> the same that it was saved on, no action is taken. But if the platform as >>> changed then the relevant ston file is selected, parsed, and the values for >>> the variables in the shared pool updated to reflect the values of the >>> current platform. >>> >>> So the C compiler is only needed when developing the interface, not when >>> deploying it. >>> >>> >> OK >> >> >>> >>>> Then Nicolas made a point that if we plan to manage all that complexity >>>> at the image level it may become a hell too. >>>> >>>> So.... what if we take a simpler (probably not better) approach and we >>>> consider the "c program that exports constants and sizes" a VM Plugin? >>>> Let's say we have a UnixPreprocessorPlugin (that would work for OSX, Linux >>>> and other's Unix I imagine for the time being) which provides a function >>>> (that is exported) which answers an array of arrays. For each constant, we >>>> include the name of the constant, the value, and the sizeof(). Then from >>>> image side, we simply do one FFI call, we get the large array and we adapt >>>> it to a SharedPool or whatever kind of object representing that info. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This is what I suggestred in teh first place. That what is >>> autogenerated is a shared object (be it a plgin or a dll doesn't matter, it >>> is machine code generated by a C compiler form an autogenerated C program >>> compiled with the platform's C compiler) that can be loaded at run-time and >>> interrogated to fetch the values of a set of variables >>> >> >> OK, got it. But still, it would be easier if the "platform" in this case >> is the "machine where we build the VM we will then distribute" right? i >> mean, I would like to put this in the CI jobs that automatically builds the >> VM, and not myself building for each platform. >> > > NO! For example, why would a company that has some proprietary arithmetic > package implemented in its secret labs in C or C++ and accessed through the > FFI want to have that code on the Pharo community's build servers? > > >> >> *I mean, my main doubt is if this job of autogenerating C code, compile >> it, run it, export text file, and distribute text file with the VM, could >> be done as part of the VM building. * >> > > For fuck's sake. Developing an FFI is not something one does when > building a VM. It is something one does wen using the system. f you want > to do this you *use a plugin*. The FFI is a different beast. It is to > allow programers to interface to external librarys that are *independent > from teh VM*. > > I'm not going to answer this one again. OK? > > > >> >> >> >>> . But I think that the textual notation suggested above is simpler. >>> The test files are easier to distribute and change. Shared objects and >>> plugins have a habit of going stale, and there needs to be metadata in >>> there to describe the set of constants etc, which is tricky to generate and >>> parse because it is binary (pointer sizes, etc, etc). Instead a simple >>> textual format should be much more robust. One could even edit by hand to >>> add new constants. It would be easy to make the textual file a versioned >>> file. Etc, etc. >>> >>> >> >> OK. Got it. And do you think using X Macros for the autogenerated C (from >> the SharedPool) is a good idea? >> And then I simply write a text file out of it. >> >> >> >>> >>>> I know that different users will need different constants. But let's >>>> say the infrastructure (plugin etc) is already done. And let's say I am a >>>> user that I want to build something with FFI and I need some constants that >>>> I see are not defined. Then I can simply add the ones I need in the plugin, >>>> and next VM release will have those. If Cog gets moved to Github, then this >>>> is even easier. Everybody can do a PR with the constants he needs. And in >>>> fact, if we have the infrastructure in place, I think that we each of us >>>> spend half an hour, we may have almost everything we need. >>>> >>>> For example, I can add myself all those for signals (to use kill() from >>>> FFI), all those from fcntl (to make none blocking pipes), all those from >>>> wait()/waitpid() family (so that I can do a waitpid() with WNOHANG), etc >>>> etc etc. >>>> >>>> I know it's not the best approach but it's something that could be done >>>> very easily and would allow A LOT of stuff to be moved to FFI just because >>>> we have no access to preprocess constants or sizeof() (to know how to >>>> allocate). I also know this won't cover macros and other stuff. But still. >>>> >>>> If you think this is a good idea, I can spend the time to do it. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 10:09 AM, Nick Ager <nick.ager(a)gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> <snip> >>>>> Well, like opendbx, maybe because opengl has quite standard >>>>> interface... >>>>> </snip> >>>>> >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>> <snip> >>>>> It's not that it's not doable, it's that we gonna reinvent gaz plant >>>>> and it gonna be so boring... >>>>> I'd like to see a proof of concept, even if we restrict to libc, libm, >>>>> kernel.dll, msvcrt.dll ... >>>>> </snip> >>>>> >>>>> <snip> >>>>> Is the unix style select() >>>>> ubiquitous or should I use WaitForMultipleObject() on Windows? Are >>>>> specification of read/write streams implementation machine independant >>>>> (bsd/sysv/others...) >>>>> </snip> >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps *a* way forward is to try to find existing projects which have >>>>> already created cross-platform abstractions for platform specific >>>>> functionality. Then we can use FFI to access that interface in a similar >>>>> way to OpenGL and OpenDBX. For example NodeJs works across unixes - perhaps >>>>> they have a useful cross-platform abstraction, boost has abstractions of >>>>> IPC etc >>>>> >>>>> Nick >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Mariano >>>> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> _,,,^..^,,,_ >>> best, Eliot >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Mariano >> http://marianopeck.wordpress.com >> > > > > -- > _,,,^..^,,,_ > best, Eliot > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Jan. 17, 2016