- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] spotter: top search for senders and references

by Tudor Girba

Hi, > On Jan 19, 2016, at 9:18 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > > > Le 19/1/16 20:25, David Allouche a Ã©crit : >> BTW, thanks for the explanations for Spotter. You are welcome. Please keep challenging. This is how good design happens. >>> On 19 Jan 2016, at 18:37, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >>> >>> And then, in Spotter we have another discovery mechanism: Shift. When you press it, all clickable things get highlighted (including the arrow). We chose Shift because it is something that you type often as part of a text, so it will be very likely that you will press it when working with Spotter as well. And this will get you to see that something happens. >> I am lazy and fearful of RSI. If I can avoid using the shift key at all, I am quite happy. So I did not notice that the arrows where clickable. > > :) > Same here. What is RSI? Most people I know use Shift to type an upper case, and we observed that when people search, they often tend to still use uppercase. Not all, but many. That is why we put this functionality on Shift. This does not mean that it is enough, but we just wanted to increase the chance of people stumbling across this without any documentation. It only partially succeeded. Anyway, we should externalize the key bindings. Another thing on the to do list :) >> Here are a few suggestions that would fit my workflow. >> >> I also think that "Selectors" should appear after classes and before packages, and be called "Messages". Typically I want to open a specific class, or a specific message in a specific class. #Messages is not a bad name, but then again I also thought that #Selectors was explicit enough :). What do others think? >> The short list of implementors at the top level is usually noise and might have confused Stef. It becomes relevant once the message is fully specified. >> >> Diving in should be done with right arrow when at the end of the command line. >> Diving out with left arrow at the start of the command line. > I was wondering what is the benefit to have cmd - shit arrow vs arrow Left/Right is used to move inside the text area (there is only one text field in the whole UI), and that is why you cannot consistently use it for navigating through results. Navigating when the cursor is at the end is a tempting idea, but it implies a mode that is not contextual (you need to things to look at). That is why I would not want to have it in this interface. >> >> When a list of paginated (only first N items), then the category line should be accessible with arrows, so we can dive into a category just with arrows. We explicitly chose not to do that because we did not want to mingle different kinds of elements in the same list. So, like this, when you press Cmd+Right, you will always dive in one single element, and not in many by mistake. Actually, our original goal was to have a way to expand the list in place (not only to dive in category). For this we wanted a â¦ line and clicking on that would expand the list in place. We did not get to do it yet, but I think this would solve quite some of the reported problems. But, please do keep challenging. And give it a try with writing your own processors. It would help us a lot. Cheers, Doru >> That would be awesome. -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Obvious things are difficult to teach."

Jan. 19, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] About Spotter Implementors and selectors

by Tudor Girba

Hi, > On Jan 19, 2016, at 9:36 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > Hi doru > > I was rereading your answers (which I could find anymore - shitty thunderbird) > and I realised that I have the impression that they are two mixed concerns. > > You use one to express exact matching and the other to have multiple match > and to me it looks not the right way to do it. > > Would you express the same if I could write > > #implement do: > > => exact match > > #implement *do: > => show only > when:do: > and otherâ¦do: That is the point! :) These are not the same. Right now we have #Implementors as being a partial match. But, we can have two different way (Implementors, and PartialImplementors or whatever). The processors that we have are not meant to be written in stone. Our idea was that we push it out there as examples, and then see what people want to use. We need people to play with this instead of us pushing a single set of searches on to people :). Regarding #Selectors, this idea came from a very long email exchange about a year ago when people were looking at Spotter like they did with the old Spotlight. Spotlight was actually finding #Selectors and was opening an Implementors Browser and people got confused when we showed the #Implementors as methods. But, we can rethink this. Really. Letâs continue the brainstorming, and I would love it if someone would jump in and propose code that we can play with. Cheers, Doru > Stef > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Next time you see your life passing by, say 'hi' and get to know her."

Jan. 19, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Cmd + click

by Nicolai Hess

2016-01-19 22:04 GMT+01:00 Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com>: > > > 2016-01-19 21:47 GMT+01:00 stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr>: > >> Sven >> - I took the latest 50 >> - open playground >> - type factorial >> - cmd click on it => nothing >> - cmd shift click on it => nothing >> >> Now doing the same in Nautilus method pane works >> Now I understand why it was not working with me. >> >> It only works on method body. >> If you click on a signature it does not work (which is a bug to me). >> >> Stef >> >> > 17431 > <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17431/No-TextLink-for-methods-signature-i…> > No TextLink for methods signature in the code pane > oh, sorry you already opened an issue (17430) I didn't saw that.

Jan. 19, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Cmd + click

by Nicolai Hess

2016-01-19 22:05 GMT+01:00 Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com>: > It makes sense, > > syntactically factorial is not a message sent, so it canât be looked up a > a method. I donât know about the implementation, but maybe it tries to look > it up as a global var. > It is parsed as an incomplete identifier and results in a RBErrorNode. If thee parser would recognized this as a valid message selector, it would create a RBMetNode and the highlighter would assign an appropiate TextLink. > > Cheers. > Uko > > > On 19 Jan 2016, at 21:51, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > > > > >> On 19 Jan 2016, at 21:47, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > >> > >> Sven > >> - I took the latest 50 > >> - open playground > >> - type factorial > >> - cmd click on it => nothing > >> - cmd shift click on it => nothing > > > > factorial is not valid code > > 1 factorial is and then it works > > so it has something to do with parsing/ast/errors, I guess > > > >> Now doing the same in Nautilus method pane works > >> Now I understand why it was not working with me. > >> > >> It only works on method body. > >> If you click on a signature it does not work (which is a bug to me). > >> > >> Stef > >> > > > > > > >

Jan. 19, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Cmd + click

by Nicolai Hess

2016-01-19 22:04 GMT+01:00 Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com>: > > > 2016-01-19 21:47 GMT+01:00 stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr>: > >> Sven >> - I took the latest 50 >> - open playground >> - type factorial >> - cmd click on it => nothing >> - cmd shift click on it => nothing >> >> Now doing the same in Nautilus method pane works >> Now I understand why it was not working with me. >> >> It only works on method body. >> If you click on a signature it does not work (which is a bug to me). >> >> Stef >> >> > 17431 > <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17431/No-TextLink-for-methods-signature-i…> > No TextLink for methods signature in the code pane > Fixed upstream: Name: Rubric-NicolaiHess.323 (we need to get TextLink/RubTextLink merged into one. Now I had to fix this in RubStyler instead of its parent class :( )

Jan. 19, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] how do I get the list of categories in Spotter?

by Tudor Girba

Hi, > On Jan 19, 2016, at 9:39 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > > > Le 19/1/16 21:28, Tudor Girba a Ã©crit : >> Hi, >> >> I was not arguing with you :). >> >> You asked how to find the answer to help you write something, and I replied how to get the information. I am not saying that this is the best way. Itâs only the way it is. > > :) > yes but I want to write > > "To get all the possible categories, use the help menu item." > > Now you have the query to populate it :) > > :) :). Ok. Itâs actually on the to do list :). Doru >> >> Doru >> >> >>> On Jan 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >>> >>> Doru I know that I can be a power user. >>> This is not the point I want to make. >>> The point I want to make (I know I'm dense) is how normal people under stress because >>> - they learn >>> - or are doing a task >>> can learn and discover. >>> When I'm hacking my business I do not want to browse a blog post. I want my job to get done and get home. >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> >>> Le 19/1/16 14:46, Tudor Girba a Ã©crit : >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Itâs not magic :) >>>> >>>> You can directly query this programmatically. >>>> - Find all processors defined in the image: >>>> GTSpotter spotterExtendingMethods >>>> - Find the top level processors defined in the first step >>>> GTSpotter spotterExtendingMethods select: [ :each | each methodClass = GTSpotter ] >>>> >>>> You can find some more details in the last post: >>>> http://www.humane-assessment.com/blog/spotting-senders-references-with-gtsp… >>>> >>>> Does this make sense? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Doru >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jan 19, 2016, at 12:36 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi >>>>> >>>>> I was stupid enough to write in the book that #method is for methods. but this is for #implementors. >>>>> So how do I get the list of categories in Spotter? >>>>> Magic? >>>>> >>>>> Stef >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>> www.feenk.com >>>> >>>> "Not knowing how to do something is not an argument for how it cannot be done." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> www.feenk.com >> >> "Every thing should have the right to be different." >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "What is more important: To be happy, or to make happy?"

Jan. 19, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Cmd + click

by Yuriy Tymchuk

It makes sense, syntactically factorial is not a message sent, so it canât be looked up a a method. I donât know about the implementation, but maybe it tries to look it up as a global var. Cheers. Uko > On 19 Jan 2016, at 21:51, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > >> On 19 Jan 2016, at 21:47, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >> >> Sven >> - I took the latest 50 >> - open playground >> - type factorial >> - cmd click on it => nothing >> - cmd shift click on it => nothing > > factorial is not valid code > 1 factorial is and then it works > so it has something to do with parsing/ast/errors, I guess > >> Now doing the same in Nautilus method pane works >> Now I understand why it was not working with me. >> >> It only works on method body. >> If you click on a signature it does not work (which is a bug to me). >> >> Stef >> > >

Jan. 19, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Cmd + click

by Nicolai Hess

2016-01-19 21:47 GMT+01:00 stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr>: > Sven > - I took the latest 50 > - open playground > - type factorial > - cmd click on it => nothing > - cmd shift click on it => nothing > > Now doing the same in Nautilus method pane works > Now I understand why it was not working with me. > > It only works on method body. > If you click on a signature it does not work (which is a bug to me). > > Stef > > 17431 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17431/No-TextLink-for-methods-signature-i…> No TextLink for methods signature in the code pane

Jan. 19, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Cmd + click

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 19 Jan 2016, at 21:47, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > Sven > - I took the latest 50 > - open playground > - type factorial > - cmd click on it => nothing > - cmd shift click on it => nothing factorial is not valid code 1 factorial is and then it works so it has something to do with parsing/ast/errors, I guess > Now doing the same in Nautilus method pane works > Now I understand why it was not working with me. > > It only works on method body. > If you click on a signature it does not work (which is a bug to me). > > Stef >

Jan. 19, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] another spotter question

by stepharo

Yes me too but - discoverability should be improved - a nice way to know if you are right is that students with 1 hour lecture in Pharo can use it because this is what I do. I give a lecture and ask them to code one class. - also writing doc for dummies is good because you have to write and explain how such tools are working. Stef Le 19/1/16 21:36, Sven Van Caekenberghe a Ã©crit : > I also struggle with Spotter, I learn something new all the time. > > I also use Spotter all the time. > > I understand that there is great value in starting from a couple of simple principles and see how they can combine in many different ways. Something with good internal logic is easier to explain, use, maintain, evolve. > > Spotter is quite different than the other tools that we had before, for me it feels more like the Google search field. > > It is not possible to have a totally obvious interface, no more than a code browser or a debugger, or programming can be self explaining. Of course, we should try to make it better if we can. > > I am very happy that we have something as powerful and advanced as Spotter (and its family). I think we are totally on the right track. > >> On 19 Jan 2016, at 20:30, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >> >>> Hmm. Thanks for describing this way of working. >>> >>> Here is the thing. We observed users working with this, and they all used predominantly the keyboard. So, we favored keyboard use. This is not an argument for anything, and it does not mean that that is the best design, I am just telling you how we designed it. Things can change, and this is why it is important to understand how people tend to use the UI. >>> >>> So, every (and only) selection has actions. In your example, the #Menu category has a right arrow next to it. If you click on that you âDive in categoryâ. That means that if you want to dive in #Implementors, you navigate there, and then you get the option of diving in. >>> >>> We consciously chose to not show all actions all the time because that would have led to an overcrowded UI with too many things to choose from. Right now, you have 5 main things to click on and that is it. >>> >>> Now, hearing your scenario, it seems to make sense to make the category clickable as well and make it dive in that category. We will look at it (or maybe someone else does it beforehand :)). Thanks. >>> >>> Does this make more sense now? >>> >> Yes! I do not get why keyboard is orthogonal to direct access. >> >> To me what I hate in UI is UI that are showing information but do not let you access it. >> >> How can I see that I can do something on the list? >> The arrows only arrive when I click on ........ >> So I was trying to click on the label and it did not work. Of course I must click on the first element >> of the list so that the arrow show up on the element and the label!!!!! >> >> What??? >> >> Seriously doru. You should have asked UI blind like me to test Spotter. >> I would have recorded a session and you can see that there are glitches that you do not even see. >> I'm just continuously bumping on them. >> This is why I could understand Spotter and use it only to find a class. >> >> >> >> >> <adhaefha..png> >> >> >> >> This is why I like the grabbing possibility of file on mac via the icons and the navigation from there >> because I see the file it is in front of my nose and I do not to jump into a file system (like a mail download folder >> I have no clue where it is) to grab it. >> So to me Spotter should offer the same. Show information and let me grab it. Especially when this is on the suggstion >> list. >> >> I do not understand how you solve the problem I got with shortcut btw. >> >> You see the point is the following. Diving can be frustrating. >> If on click on the labl you get the list then it can work really well. >> >>> Doru >>> >>> >>>> Stef >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> <icfedjib..png> >>>> >>> -- >>> >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> www.feenk.com >>> >>> >>> "When people care, great things can happen." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > >

Jan. 19, 2016