- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-users] Numerical Methods in Pharo without FFI ?

by stepharo

> I agree with using Smalltalk when we can, and avoid FFI, except maybe > one thing... > > In Smalltalk, we could completely eliminate the Float primitives and > emulate them with Integer arithmetic. > But we don't. > > IMO we should adopt same pragmatic approach with basic operations on > vectors/matrices, and maybe also for more involved algebra. I think so too. A bit in the direction of WordArray or FloatArray? > > The guys of LAPACK decided to use a "primitive" layer BLAS because the > FORTRAN compiler was too naive to compete with specially crafted > optimizations like that of MKL. What is MKL? Marcus is telling to me since years that we should use a good math libraries like the one developed by some inria groups. > It does not make sense to compete in this area, our language is not > taylored for number crunching whatever the JIT efforts we can make, Agreed. Now what would be interesting to know is: what kind of operations do we need to attack vectorised CPU I do not remember their name but I was talking with Philippe Mougin the father of F-Script and he wanted to map his F-Script messages to vector on CPU to get all the power for crunching numbers. > > So let's use some kind of numeric primitives. Which ones? Do you have some cycles to produce a prototype so that we can learn? > That's how Matlab, NumPy, R or evry other interpreter would do it, > don't they? I would love to have - knowledge - and time Sadly I just have the energy for simple things. > It may be interesting to have some fallback code written in Smalltalk, > but it ain't gonna scale. Indeed. > So don't forget that Smallapack could leverage number crunching, > that's what it's made for... Should we put under the umbrella once we clean SciPharo? Because it should be reorganized first. stef

March 5, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

by S Krish

Emotional arguments do not change facts. Contributions of 1000's from 1970's make all of programming languages what they are. Acknowledgement of heritage period. Carry on with the great work, which future generations will acknowledge, even more the contributions of all around Pharo around today, I am sure. On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 1:40 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the > same. > Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? > Do you think that people do not know how to count? > In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than > python, java, c#, lua, ... > > Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our > language and do node.js. > Seriously. > Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can > tell you. > I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a > good opportunity. > Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility > of our system > I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. > Afterall I may be wrong. > Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay > with old friends > just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole > that does not want to > promote smalltalk. > > > Stef > > Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a Ã©crit : > > > > On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > >> >> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. >> What is so much pharo specific in this library? >> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split? >> >> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes >> this looks like a >> smart move. >> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby >> and swift) >> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented >> programming!! >> > > When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. > I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to > distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the > inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude. > > C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level > imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to > rename Lisp because it is perceived as old. > > Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and > identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, > Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be > ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me. > > Offended, > Eliot > > >

March 5, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

by S Krish

+1 On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 6:48 AM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > >> >> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. >> What is so much pharo specific in this library? >> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split? >> >> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes >> this looks like a >> smart move. >> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby >> and swift) >> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented >> programming!! >> > > When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. > I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to > distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the > inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude. > > C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level > imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to > rename Lisp because it is perceived as old. > > Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and > identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, > Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be > ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me. > > Offended, > Eliot >

March 5, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

by stepharo

You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than python, java, c#, lua, ... Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk. Stef Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a Ã©crit : > > > On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr > <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote: > > >> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. >> What is so much pharo specific in this library? >> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split? > Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in > peace. Yes this looks like a > smart move. > There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking > about ruby and swift) > so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented > programming!! > > > When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the > community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses > Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or > massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete > lack of gratitude. > > C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level > imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to > rename Lisp because it is perceived as old. > > Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and > identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. > Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why > anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive > influence is beyond me. > > Offended, > Eliot

March 5, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

by Eliot Miranda

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. > What is so much pharo specific in this library? > Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split? > > Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes > this looks like a > smart move. > There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby > and swift) > so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented > programming!! > When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude. C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old. Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me. Offended, Eliot

March 5, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

by Eliot Miranda

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:29 PM, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev < pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> > To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> > Cc: > Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 07:27:45 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :) > Why just don't we honor Didier H. Besset and leave it as it was, Numerical > Methods in Smalltalk? > > That way, regardless of your favorite Smalltalk implementation, there will > always be a "Numerical Methods in Smalltalk" package somewhere! > > The same way there's no GlorpPharo : it's Glorp everywhere! > +1 > > ----------------- > BenoÃ®t St-Jean > Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean > Twitter: @BenLeChialeux > Pinterest: benoitstjean > IRC: lamneth > Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com > "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> > *To:* Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 2, 2016 1:43 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :) > > On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Nicolas Cellier > <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. > > What is so much pharo specific in this library? > > Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split? > > We can think of a more neutral name. > Any idea for a new name ? > > Regards, > > -- > Serge Stinckwich > UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) > Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ > > > > > -- _,,,^..^,,,_ best, Eliot

March 5, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

by Serge Stinckwich

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>: >> >> I personally never liked the name âSciSmalltalkâ. âSciPharoâ is much >> better in my opinion >> PhaNum is also okay to me. >> > > SciSmalltalk is ugly. I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name ! > Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk. > SciSmalltalk is just: > - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration) > - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub) SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ... We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book. -- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

March 4, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

by stepharo

We are changing the code and removing mistakes (except if you prefer to have double initialization for example). We are maintaining the book and we will produce a new. So focus on the good energy and our world will get much better. Le 4/3/16 08:32, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev a Ã©crit :

March 4, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

by stepharo

> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. > What is so much pharo specific in this library? > Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split? Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a smart move. There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift) so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!! Stef > > 2016-03-02 14:56 GMT+01:00 Serge Stinckwich > <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com <mailto:serge.stinckwich@gmail.com>>: > > On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com > <mailto:tudor@tudorgirba.com>> wrote: > > This is great news! > > > > I would be interested in time series and distributions as well. > > Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time > series. > > -- > Serge Stinckwich > UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) > Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ > >

March 4, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

by Nicolas Cellier

2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>: > I personally never liked the name âSciSmalltalkâ. âSciPharoâ is much > better in my opinion > PhaNum is also okay to me. > > SciSmalltalk is ugly. Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk. SciSmalltalk is just: - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration) - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub) If you name the Metacello configuration SciPharo, it's OK, because it does not really exclude any goodwill contributing from another Smalltalk flavour. If you name the repositories SciPharo, you start tainting a bit more... But well. > Alexandre > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > On Mar 2, 2016, at 3:11 PM, Nicolas Cellier < > nicolas.cellier.aka.nice(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. > What is so much pharo specific in this library? > Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split? > > 2016-03-02 14:56 GMT+01:00 Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com>: > >> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >> > This is great news! >> > >> > I would be interested in time series and distributions as well. >> >> Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time series. >> >> -- >> Serge Stinckwich >> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) >> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk >> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ >> >> > >

March 4, 2016