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Re: [Pharo-dev] bloc status update: june 2016

by Aliaksei Syrel

Hello Clement restoreAfter: is not only for transformation. It also restores clipping - that is why we need restoreAfter. (uses push and pop state). Having that clipping region is an arbitrary path there is no way to avoid pop and push state - which costs a lot in Cairo. It is slow because Cairo and Athens are statefull - which is bad for rendering a composition of arbitrary elements. Right now there is a huge work going on new Sparta - it will be almost stateless and will support a wide variety of backends (Cairo, Skia, CoreGraphics and so on). Current Sparta-Cairo is an experiment which goal was to support clipping by arbitrary path. We learned that it is slow because of statefullness. In order to fill a square with color we have to perform the following ffi native calls: - set color - set shape - fill Even in the most simple case we need 3 calls. When it gets more complicated there are even more calls. Preparing drawing context with multiple calls to perform an operation is a consequence of statefullness. Modern browsers use stateless canvases to render content. Idea is simple: one call per drawing operation. Example above would look like: - fillPath(aPath, aPattern, drawOptions). That is it. Second benefit is that we don't need to care about shared state between drawing operations, no more push/pop state and as result huge performance boost. Cheers Alex On Jun 21, 2016 1:34 PM, "ClÃ©ment Bera" <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Thanks Doru it now works for me ! Very exciting indeed. > > I have a few questions: > > 1. In Pharo the World menu is accessed through left-click and right-click > provides the world contents. In Bloc, right-click displays the world menu > and left-click does nothing. Is it expected / some design choice or just > convenience for debugging ? At first glance I thought Bloc didn't work > because I was left-clicking like in Pharo. > > 2. Can we change the fonts in Bloc ? > > 3. When (in Bloc) I go to World menu>>help>>Help browser>>Bloc>>Grid > Layout, I find the following license: > > Copyright (C) 2011 The Android Open Source Project > > Licensed under the Apache License, Version 2.0 (the "License"); > you may not use this file except in compliance with the License. > You may obtain a copy of the License at > > http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0 > > Unless required by applicable law or agreed to in writing, software > distributed under the License is distributed on an "AS IS" BASIS, > WITHOUT WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, either express or implied. > See the License for the specific language governing permissions and > limitations under the License. > > Does it mean Bloc is not under MIT ? Or is it completely unrelated ? > > 4. What is Cairo-Sparta ? What is the difference with Athens ? > > 5. It seems that the normal Pharo image in idle spends between 4 and 5% of > execution time in the Morphic process, while in Bloc it seems that between > 17 and 23% of execution time is in the main bloc loop > (BlBoostedMainLoopManager). Isn't that a lot ? > - It's interesting to see that 28% of execution time spent in Bloc is in > BlSpartaCanvas>>#restoreAfter:. In the 2D video games I wrote (both using > Cairo and Javascript canvas) I avoided using #restoreAfter: and instead in > method such as BlSpartaCanvas >>#transform:during: I used a reverse > transformation to restore the state. I am wondering if that's possible in > large graphic framework like Bloc, that would save a quarter of the time. > Maybe it's possible only in simple 2D video games. > - Aside from restoreAfter, there is no obvious ways on how to save time... > > Well keep up the good work. > > > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Thanks for looking at it. >> >> You have to first switch to the Bloc space: >> >> World Menu / Bloc / Switch to Bloc >> (I think there is a problem right now with OS-Window) >> >> Then, from Nautilus, you can pick an example and Inspect Return-Values to >> get the object. >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> >> On Jun 21, 2016, at 10:42 AM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> Hi Doru, >> >> Ok I understand I have issues keeping comments updated in my projects too >> :-). Do your best. >> >> I tried to run the examples from Bloc-Core-Examples but they didn't work. >> I downloaded the latest Pharo-Spur32 VM from files.pharo.org and retried >> and it still didn't work. >> >> How can I have the examples running ? >> >> Here is the errors I have for the first two examples of >> BlExampleElementWithBorderAndFill. >> >> <Screen Shot 2016-06-21 at 10.40.39 AM.png> >> >> Here are the examples: >> >> <Screen Shot 2016-06-21 at 10.37.49 AM.png> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Clement >> >> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com >> > wrote: >> Hi Clement, >> >> Thanks for looking at it. >> >> Indeed, there arenât many comments. A large part of the engine got >> rewritten twice over the last months, and many of the previous comments >> were no longer up to date. >> >> And no, the policy is not to not write comments :), but right now the >> priority is on building examples. which you will find in the >> Bloc-Core-Examples classes and their subclasses. >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> >> > On Jun 21, 2016, at 9:39 AM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > Hi Doru, >> > >> > I downloaded the image, opened Nautilus, clicked on the package named >> 'Bloc-Core' and all the classes I can see have no class comments (See >> screenshot below). Is there a 'No class comment' policy in Bloc ? Or maybe >> the top classes shown are just non representative of the class comments of >> the overall framework. >> > >> > <Screen Shot 2016-06-21 at 9.33.31 AM.png> >> > >> > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 7:42 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> >> wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > Here is a brief update on the status of Bloc. >> > >> > Several of us came together to form a team and work to see Bloc in >> Pharo 6 at least as a preview. The team communication happens via Slack in >> a dedicated team, and the goal is to have regular progress/feedback >> communication on this mailing list. >> > >> > Just because we have a dedicated team does not mean that your feedback >> is important. In fact, over the last months, Bloc was redesigned again to >> include the feedback we got here. So, now we have: >> > - Element is responsible for drawing (no more shape) >> > - Interaction area and clipping area are now distinct >> > >> > You can find the current build on top of Pharo 6 here: >> > >> https://ci.inria.fr/moose/job/bloc/PHARO=alpha,VERSION=development,VM=vmLat… >> > >> > The current team focus goes like this: >> > - Alain is looking at events, >> > - Glenn is playing with creating new elements in Bloc and refactoring >> the way we can manage , >> > - Alex (Syrel) and Esteban are working on the backend to make rendering >> faster, >> > - Doru is pretending to do something useful. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Doru >> > >> > >> > -- >> > www.tudorgirba.com >> > www.feenk.com >> > >> > "What we can governs what we wish." >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> www.feenk.com >> >> "Presenting is storytelling." >> >> >> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> www.feenk.com >> >> "Problem solving should be focused on describing >> the problem in a way that makes the solution obvious." >> >> >> >> >> >> >

June 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] catalog will be down 1hr

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Thanks for taking care ! Any change you thought about this one: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17927/Pharo-Project-Catalog-should-be-ser… ? > On 21 Jun 2016, at 14:53, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > ok, is up again :) > >> On 21 Jun 2016, at 14:11, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I will apply some updates to catalog (backend, they will not be visible) >> >> cheers, >> Esteban >> > >

June 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] catalog will be down 1hr

by Esteban Lorenzano

ok, is up again :) > On 21 Jun 2016, at 14:11, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > I will apply some updates to catalog (backend, they will not be visible) > > cheers, > Esteban >

June 21, 2016

catalog will be down 1hr

by Esteban Lorenzano

Hi, I will apply some updates to catalog (backend, they will not be visible) cheers, Esteban

June 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] bloc status update: june 2016

by Nicolai Hess

2016-06-21 13:41 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: > How can I see this window? > > 'stringmorph' asMorph openInSceneView > On 21 Jun 2016, at 09:23, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > 2016-06-21 7:42 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com>: > >> Hi, >> >> Here is a brief update on the status of Bloc. >> >> Several of us came together to form a team and work to see Bloc in Pharo >> 6 at least as a preview. The team communication happens via Slack in a >> dedicated team, and the goal is to have regular progress/feedback >> communication on this mailing list. >> >> Just because we have a dedicated team does not mean that your feedback is >> important. In fact, over the last months, Bloc was redesigned again to >> include the feedback we got here. So, now we have: >> - Element is responsible for drawing (no more shape) >> - Interaction area and clipping area are now distinct >> >> You can find the current build on top of Pharo 6 here: >> >> https://ci.inria.fr/moose/job/bloc/PHARO=alpha,VERSION=development,VM=vmLat… >> >> The current team focus goes like this: >> - Alain is looking at events, >> - Glenn is playing with creating new elements in Bloc and refactoring the >> way we can manage , >> - Alex (Syrel) and Esteban are working on the backend to make rendering >> faster, >> > > As you are on it, there changed somthing in UFFI between pharo 60059/60060 > (18361 > <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18361/Update-UFFI-version-to-0-20-2> > Update UFFI version to 0.20.2) > > see attached screenshot > > >> - Doru is pretending to do something useful. >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> www.feenk.com >> >> "What we can governs what we wish." >> >> >> >> >> >> > <uffi_athens_textrendering.PNG> > > >

June 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] bloc status update: june 2016

by Esteban Lorenzano

How can I see this window? > On 21 Jun 2016, at 09:23, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > 2016-06-21 7:42 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com <mailto:tudor@tudorgirba.com>>: > Hi, > > Here is a brief update on the status of Bloc. > > Several of us came together to form a team and work to see Bloc in Pharo 6 at least as a preview. The team communication happens via Slack in a dedicated team, and the goal is to have regular progress/feedback communication on this mailing list. > > Just because we have a dedicated team does not mean that your feedback is important. In fact, over the last months, Bloc was redesigned again to include the feedback we got here. So, now we have: > - Element is responsible for drawing (no more shape) > - Interaction area and clipping area are now distinct > > You can find the current build on top of Pharo 6 here: > https://ci.inria.fr/moose/job/bloc/PHARO=alpha,VERSION=development,VM=vmLat… <https://ci.inria.fr/moose/job/bloc/PHARO=alpha,VERSION=development,VM=vmLat…> > > The current team focus goes like this: > - Alain is looking at events, > - Glenn is playing with creating new elements in Bloc and refactoring the way we can manage , > - Alex (Syrel) and Esteban are working on the backend to make rendering faster, > > As you are on it, there changed somthing in UFFI between pharo 60059/60060 (18361 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18361/Update-UFFI-version-to-0-20-2> Update UFFI version to 0.20.2) > > see attached screenshot > > - Doru is pretending to do something useful. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com/> > www.feenk.com <http://www.feenk.com/> > > "What we can governs what we wish." > > > > > > > <uffi_athens_textrendering.PNG>

June 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] bloc status update: june 2016

by ClÃ©ment Bera

Hi, Thanks Doru it now works for me ! Very exciting indeed. I have a few questions: 1. In Pharo the World menu is accessed through left-click and right-click provides the world contents. In Bloc, right-click displays the world menu and left-click does nothing. Is it expected / some design choice or just convenience for debugging ? At first glance I thought Bloc didn't work because I was left-clicking like in Pharo. 2. Can we change the fonts in Bloc ? 3. When (in Bloc) I go to World menu>>help>>Help browser>>Bloc>>Grid Layout, I find the following license: Copyright (C) 2011 The Android Open Source Project Licensed under the Apache License, Version 2.0 (the "License"); you may not use this file except in compliance with the License. You may obtain a copy of the License at http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0 Unless required by applicable law or agreed to in writing, software distributed under the License is distributed on an "AS IS" BASIS, WITHOUT WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, either express or implied. See the License for the specific language governing permissions and limitations under the License. Does it mean Bloc is not under MIT ? Or is it completely unrelated ? 4. What is Cairo-Sparta ? What is the difference with Athens ? 5. It seems that the normal Pharo image in idle spends between 4 and 5% of execution time in the Morphic process, while in Bloc it seems that between 17 and 23% of execution time is in the main bloc loop (BlBoostedMainLoopManager). Isn't that a lot ? - It's interesting to see that 28% of execution time spent in Bloc is in BlSpartaCanvas>>#restoreAfter:. In the 2D video games I wrote (both using Cairo and Javascript canvas) I avoided using #restoreAfter: and instead in method such as BlSpartaCanvas >>#transform:during: I used a reverse transformation to restore the state. I am wondering if that's possible in large graphic framework like Bloc, that would save a quarter of the time. Maybe it's possible only in simple 2D video games. - Aside from restoreAfter, there is no obvious ways on how to save time... Well keep up the good work. On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Thanks for looking at it. > > You have to first switch to the Bloc space: > > World Menu / Bloc / Switch to Bloc > (I think there is a problem right now with OS-Window) > > Then, from Nautilus, you can pick an example and Inspect Return-Values to > get the object. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 10:42 AM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Doru, > > Ok I understand I have issues keeping comments updated in my projects too > :-). Do your best. > > I tried to run the examples from Bloc-Core-Examples but they didn't work. > I downloaded the latest Pharo-Spur32 VM from files.pharo.org and retried > and it still didn't work. > > How can I have the examples running ? > > Here is the errors I have for the first two examples of > BlExampleElementWithBorderAndFill. > > <Screen Shot 2016-06-21 at 10.40.39 AM.png> > > Here are the examples: > > <Screen Shot 2016-06-21 at 10.37.49 AM.png> > > > Best, > > Clement > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com > > wrote: > Hi Clement, > > Thanks for looking at it. > > Indeed, there arenât many comments. A large part of the engine got > rewritten twice over the last months, and many of the previous comments > were no longer up to date. > > And no, the policy is not to not write comments :), but right now the > priority is on building examples. which you will find in the > Bloc-Core-Examples classes and their subclasses. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 9:39 AM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > Hi Doru, > > > > I downloaded the image, opened Nautilus, clicked on the package named > 'Bloc-Core' and all the classes I can see have no class comments (See > screenshot below). Is there a 'No class comment' policy in Bloc ? Or maybe > the top classes shown are just non representative of the class comments of > the overall framework. > > > > <Screen Shot 2016-06-21 at 9.33.31 AM.png> > > > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 7:42 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Here is a brief update on the status of Bloc. > > > > Several of us came together to form a team and work to see Bloc in Pharo > 6 at least as a preview. The team communication happens via Slack in a > dedicated team, and the goal is to have regular progress/feedback > communication on this mailing list. > > > > Just because we have a dedicated team does not mean that your feedback > is important. In fact, over the last months, Bloc was redesigned again to > include the feedback we got here. So, now we have: > > - Element is responsible for drawing (no more shape) > > - Interaction area and clipping area are now distinct > > > > You can find the current build on top of Pharo 6 here: > > > https://ci.inria.fr/moose/job/bloc/PHARO=alpha,VERSION=development,VM=vmLat… > > > > The current team focus goes like this: > > - Alain is looking at events, > > - Glenn is playing with creating new elements in Bloc and refactoring > the way we can manage , > > - Alex (Syrel) and Esteban are working on the backend to make rendering > faster, > > - Doru is pretending to do something useful. > > > > Cheers, > > Doru > > > > > > -- > > www.tudorgirba.com > > www.feenk.com > > > > "What we can governs what we wish." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "Presenting is storytelling." > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "Problem solving should be focused on describing > the problem in a way that makes the solution obvious." > > > > > >

June 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] bloc status update: june 2016

by ClÃ©ment Bera

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > You are right, code without comments is not acceptable. > > But, but. > > How many serious, non-trivial, public code bases consisting of 10s or 100s > of classes and 1000s or 10000s of methods have you, or anyone else giving > remarks, written and FULLY documented according to those high standards ? > > I prefer for people to actually write code and hope that they will > eventually document it all. > > I agree with you. If we take the example of Bee Smalltalk, their code convention is to have no comment at all in the code, all the documentation is in separated files. So when I saw what you can see in the screenshot I provided, I thought Bloc had the same coding convention so I asked because maybe there was an external documentation too. It's not the case, there is not that many comments yet because the framework is a work in progress and that's fine with me. > > On 21 Jun 2016, at 10:22, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > One day I will find out why developers hate documentation so much , or > at least why they think features and code is more important than its > documentation. > > > > In the mean time, personally I wont give feedback to something that I > have to waste my time reading code because spending 10 seconds per class is > a second or third priority for you. > > > > No examples are not enough, actually I take class comments over examples > any day. > > > > Wish you good luck in your effort and thank you for trying to make Pharo > better , I may be annoyed with the Pharo documentation problem, but that > does not mean I dont appreciate the efforts to improve Pharo. > > > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:11 AM Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> > wrote: > > Hi Clement, > > > > Thanks for looking at it. > > > > Indeed, there arenât many comments. A large part of the engine got > rewritten twice over the last months, and many of the previous comments > were no longer up to date. > > > > And no, the policy is not to not write comments :), but right now the > priority is on building examples. which you will find in the > Bloc-Core-Examples classes and their subclasses. > > > > Cheers, > > Doru > > > > > > > > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 9:39 AM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Doru, > > > > > > I downloaded the image, opened Nautilus, clicked on the package named > 'Bloc-Core' and all the classes I can see have no class comments (See > screenshot below). Is there a 'No class comment' policy in Bloc ? Or maybe > the top classes shown are just non representative of the class comments of > the overall framework. > > > > > > <Screen Shot 2016-06-21 at 9.33.31 AM.png> > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 7:42 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > Here is a brief update on the status of Bloc. > > > > > > Several of us came together to form a team and work to see Bloc in > Pharo 6 at least as a preview. The team communication happens via Slack in > a dedicated team, and the goal is to have regular progress/feedback > communication on this mailing list. > > > > > > Just because we have a dedicated team does not mean that your feedback > is important. In fact, over the last months, Bloc was redesigned again to > include the feedback we got here. So, now we have: > > > - Element is responsible for drawing (no more shape) > > > - Interaction area and clipping area are now distinct > > > > > > You can find the current build on top of Pharo 6 here: > > > > https://ci.inria.fr/moose/job/bloc/PHARO=alpha,VERSION=development,VM=vmLat… > > > > > > The current team focus goes like this: > > > - Alain is looking at events, > > > - Glenn is playing with creating new elements in Bloc and refactoring > the way we can manage , > > > - Alex (Syrel) and Esteban are working on the backend to make > rendering faster, > > > - Doru is pretending to do something useful. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Doru > > > > > > > > > -- > > > www.tudorgirba.com > > > www.feenk.com > > > > > > "What we can governs what we wish." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > www.tudorgirba.com > > www.feenk.com > > > > "Presenting is storytelling." > > > > > > >

June 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Pharo vs. Squeak performance

by Ben Coman

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 3:29 PM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hello John. > > I'm just guessing here. Lacking information. It could be: > > Guess 3) the UI is known to be much slower in Pharo. Can you try headless or > after ticking "Server mode" In the Pharo settings in System. Or try something like... [ Transcript cr; show: (Time millisecondsToRun: [1 to: 100000000 do: [:i | Object new]] ) ] forkAt: 75. cheers -ben > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 1:28 AM, John Brant <brant(a)refactoryworkers.com> > wrote: >> >> I have some code that creates a several hundred MB model. When I run the >> code under Pharo it takes ~2.5 minutes to run. However, if I run the same >> code in Squeak, it takes ~2 minutes. Since my code just uses base >> collections and streams, I thought the times should be very similar between >> the two. After a little investigation, I noticed that even simple things >> like âObject newâ can take much more time in Pharo. Hereâs an example that I >> executed in Squeak and Pharo: >> >> Time millisecondsToRun: [1 to: 100000000 do: [:i | Object new]] >> >> Squeak times: >> 1255 1257 1261 1265 1280 1294 1314 1337 1350 1360 >> >> Pharo times: >> 1815 1818 1870 1879 1900 1922 1944 1952 1958 2170 >> >> The results are the first 10 executions sorted by time after opening an >> image. Pharo doesnât always give these poor results. Occasionally I can get >> times as good a Squeak. For example, I was able to get these times in Pharo: >> 1253, 1284, 1297, 1314, 1317. However, it generally takes ~1.8 seconds in >> Pharo vs. the ~1.3 seconds for Squeak. The worst time I got for Squeak was >> in the 1.6 second range. The worst for Pharo was in the 4.3 second range. >> >> Does anyone know why Pharo is slower? Is there some memory setting that I >> need to change? >> >> >> John Brant > >

June 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] bloc status update: june 2016

by Tudor Girba

Hi, I find this discussion quite entertaining. Just to clarify: this was an update of the current status. We do not ask you to do anything. If you do choose to invest, please do so knowing that it is very early stage and we will move fast. We happily take your input into account, but please letâs get specific. For example, if you want to help us write documentation, ask concrete questions that you might have. Cheers, Doru > On Jun 21, 2016, at 11:29 AM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I am not the kind of guy to tell other people what is acceptable and what is not > > Actually its perfectly acceptable because its your code and your entitled to do whatever you want with it. > > You ask me how many open source and even commercial projects there are out there that have partial or bad documentation. I will say the vast majority. > > However Tudor said that feedback is very important for the team and I am willing to assume here that they would not complain if more joined their effort to further speed up the replacement of Morphic with Bloc. > > People cannot contribute or provide feedback to something they dont understand. > > Its a high standard to write a few lines per class and spend no more than 20 seconds when the benefits in doing so will be massive ? > > Sorry but I dont agree, writting class comments is super simple and super fast there are no excuses. And no it does not matter if your library is 1 billion methods. > > Seriously you think that anyone will actually be motivated when you end up with 1 00 classes to write comments for it ? This exactly why documentation always suffer because you live it last and it looks like a mountain to climb. > > One of the best quotes I have read is the following > > "Documentation is not mandatory by itself, its mandatory only when you want your project to succeed" > > But if the majority of pharo users agree with your opinion that writing code is more important than documenting it, so be it, I will have to live with that. > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:46 AM Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > You are right, code without comments is not acceptable. > > But, but. > > How many serious, non-trivial, public code bases consisting of 10s or 100s of classes and 1000s or 10000s of methods have you, or anyone else giving remarks, written and FULLY documented according to those high standards ? > > I prefer for people to actually write code and hope that they will eventually document it all. > > > On 21 Jun 2016, at 10:22, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > One day I will find out why developers hate documentation so much , or at least why they think features and code is more important than its documentation. > > > > In the mean time, personally I wont give feedback to something that I have to waste my time reading code because spending 10 seconds per class is a second or third priority for you. > > > > No examples are not enough, actually I take class comments over examples any day. > > > > Wish you good luck in your effort and thank you for trying to make Pharo better , I may be annoyed with the Pharo documentation problem, but that does not mean I dont appreciate the efforts to improve Pharo. > > > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:11 AM Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > > Hi Clement, > > > > Thanks for looking at it. > > > > Indeed, there arenât many comments. A large part of the engine got rewritten twice over the last months, and many of the previous comments were no longer up to date. > > > > And no, the policy is not to not write comments :), but right now the priority is on building examples. which you will find in the Bloc-Core-Examples classes and their subclasses. > > > > Cheers, > > Doru > > > > > > > > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 9:39 AM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Doru, > > > > > > I downloaded the image, opened Nautilus, clicked on the package named 'Bloc-Core' and all the classes I can see have no class comments (See screenshot below). Is there a 'No class comment' policy in Bloc ? Or maybe the top classes shown are just non representative of the class comments of the overall framework. > > > > > > <Screen Shot 2016-06-21 at 9.33.31 AM.png> > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 7:42 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > Here is a brief update on the status of Bloc. > > > > > > Several of us came together to form a team and work to see Bloc in Pharo 6 at least as a preview. The team communication happens via Slack in a dedicated team, and the goal is to have regular progress/feedback communication on this mailing list. > > > > > > Just because we have a dedicated team does not mean that your feedback is important. In fact, over the last months, Bloc was redesigned again to include the feedback we got here. So, now we have: > > > - Element is responsible for drawing (no more shape) > > > - Interaction area and clipping area are now distinct > > > > > > You can find the current build on top of Pharo 6 here: > > > https://ci.inria.fr/moose/job/bloc/PHARO=alpha,VERSION=development,VM=vmLat… > > > > > > The current team focus goes like this: > > > - Alain is looking at events, > > > - Glenn is playing with creating new elements in Bloc and refactoring the way we can manage , > > > - Alex (Syrel) and Esteban are working on the backend to make rendering faster, > > > - Doru is pretending to do something useful. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Doru > > > > > > > > > -- > > > www.tudorgirba.com > > > www.feenk.com > > > > > > "What we can governs what we wish." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > www.tudorgirba.com > > www.feenk.com > > > > "Presenting is storytelling." > > > > > > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "It's not what we do that matters most, it's how we do it."

June 21, 2016