- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Git versions on CI slaves

by Mark Bestley

On 21/10/2016 15:04, Damien Pollet wrote: > On 21 October 2016 at 15:47, Pavel Krivanek > <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com > <mailto:pavel.krivanek@gmail.com>> wrote: > > The main problem are the long-term supported Linux distributions > like Debian or CentOS. > > > Even Debian stable has git 2.1 so I'd say it's a non-problem. > > See git's release dates (albeit via wikipedia) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git Both 1.7 and 1.8 are unsupported as is 2.1 Current version is 2.10 -- Mark

Oct. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Sparta v1.1

by Todd Blanchard

> On Oct 21, 2016, at 07:30, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > The current (!) complaint is rather based on the fact that everything regarding the graphics backend, widget and tools appears sometimes as an indefinite loop of reinventing stuff and improving and never get the job done. Did I mention 64bit, UFFI,â¦ I'm glad all these topics are worked one and I see a bright future if half of them are done. But then sometimes it looks rather dark and the light at the end of the tunnel just went off :) I feel you. I very much want to use Pharo to build devices from things like Raspberry Pi's, iPhones, and Androids. I need access to native libraries. You can't rewrite everything ever in Smalltalk and I don't really see a good reason to. I've taken about ten years off from doing Smalltalk and I'm trying to get back into it. My interest is piqued because I want to build nice custom systems using the nifty new cheap goodies like Arduinos and RPis and it seems tossing together a full screen Pharo image would be a great way to build these appliances. In that time the story for how to call out to native code has changed...twice. Everything is broken or in flux again. To me, it doesn't feel like there's any more platform to build apps on than there was ten years ago and everything is still "just around the corner". Pharo seem to be an experiment in building next generation programming tools using deprecated last generation programming tools. I don't see a lot of useful programs being built atop it - largely because the base is constantly shifting about. It is disheartening that the Ruby guys can crank out gems with native libraries that compile and work on every platform and pharo is still constantly half broken with loadable native code "doable" but only with great effort. I looked and Moz2D doesn't seem to have a light weight build for Raspberry Pi. Is hitching Pharo to a heavy weight graphics library as a core requirement a good idea? I'm starting to think maybe we need something like Gems for Pharo - dynamically loadable libraries and resources - compiled at install if necessary.

Oct. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Sparta v1.1

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 21 Oct 2016, at 17:19, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> On 21 Oct 2016, at 16:43, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: >> >> Tudor Girba-2 wrote >>> I would kindly ask for patience. What is perhaps less clear is that this >>> editor is in the critical path of the GT project and we are committed to >>> deliver an editor that actually works. We are still investigating >>> different paths, both on the low level (like with Rope) and at the higher >>> level (like how to organize the layout). >> >> I really appreciate your long-term vision. My point/concern is that IMHO the >> most important thing is to "rachet up" - to alternate frequently between: >> a) releasing working versions of current best ideas (the many benefits of >> which include locking in progress, getting feedback from a wide audience, >> and getting buy-in/allowing users to adapt), and >> b) using that as a launching point for new experiments >> >> We are still using the same original awful text model that has stymied so >> many users/projects! Let's focus on and release something useable - anything >> - to take the pressure off while we invent the future. >> >> To illustrate the general principal, think about all the pain we have >> experienced because the last (promised) crucial step of cleaning and >> refactoring Squeak was not accomplished before beginning the next >> experiment! My question is: where is the sweet spot between the zero vision >> (but universal accessibility for actual work) of Java/C++, and infinite >> vision (at the extreme cost of immediately-usable artifacts) of >> Squeak/VPRI[1]? > > amen. > > think is: is like the third time we start once again to build the next huge steps. > and frankly, while waiting for that we have a text model that sucks and a cool text model unfinished and usable and a text editor that cannot handle complicated stuff because it is not ready, etc. etc. > it feels bad. it tastes bad. and is not good at all. Yes, that does not feel good. But the fact that something is not completely finished is in the first place the responsibility of who started it in the first place - they did not drive there work all the way through (including integration, documentation, actively supporting it for a couple of years). > Esteban > >> >> 1. This is not a criticism; they are just in a different business (cathedral >> building) >> >> >> >> ----- >> Cheers, >> Sean >> -- >> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Sparta-v1-1-tp4919394p4919647.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Sparta v1.1

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 21 Oct 2016, at 16:43, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > > Tudor Girba-2 wrote >> I would kindly ask for patience. What is perhaps less clear is that this >> editor is in the critical path of the GT project and we are committed to >> deliver an editor that actually works. We are still investigating >> different paths, both on the low level (like with Rope) and at the higher >> level (like how to organize the layout). > > I really appreciate your long-term vision. My point/concern is that IMHO the > most important thing is to "rachet up" - to alternate frequently between: > a) releasing working versions of current best ideas (the many benefits of > which include locking in progress, getting feedback from a wide audience, > and getting buy-in/allowing users to adapt), and > b) using that as a launching point for new experiments > > We are still using the same original awful text model that has stymied so > many users/projects! Let's focus on and release something useable - anything > - to take the pressure off while we invent the future. > > To illustrate the general principal, think about all the pain we have > experienced because the last (promised) crucial step of cleaning and > refactoring Squeak was not accomplished before beginning the next > experiment! My question is: where is the sweet spot between the zero vision > (but universal accessibility for actual work) of Java/C++, and infinite > vision (at the extreme cost of immediately-usable artifacts) of > Squeak/VPRI[1]? amen. think is: is like the third time we start once again to build the next huge steps. and frankly, while waiting for that we have a text model that sucks and a cool text model unfinished and usable and a text editor that cannot handle complicated stuff because it is not ready, etc. etc. it feels bad. it tastes bad. and is not good at all. Esteban > > 1. This is not a criticism; they are just in a different business (cathedral > building) > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Sparta-v1-1-tp4919394p4919647.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

Oct. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Again about scrolling with a trackpad

by Denis Kudriashov

2016-10-21 16:44 GMT+02:00 Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com>: > If I remember correctly on side scrolling the vm generates "ctrl + â" and > "ctrl + â" keystroke events. Then some morph listens to them and switches > focus. > I hope with SDL it will be normal events

Oct. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Sparta v1.1

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 21 Oct 2016, at 16:30, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > Dale, > >> Am 21.10.2016 um 16:12 schrieb Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com <mailto:dale.henrichs@gemtalksystems.com>>: >> >> Norbert, >> >> I didn't realize that you were claiming that the new text model for Sparta was (potentially) inferior. >> The other day you were expressing sadness about having to use the newer version of Metacello (which is *only* 3 years old), so I assumed that you were just being generally cranky about change:). >> > it might be true it is a current topic for me. In my struggle to establish a solid devlopment process I have sometimes the feeling it is impossible. Especially when the new metacello thingie improves something I don't know but at the same time I loose Versionner and the commandline handlers which I know :) > The current (!) complaint is rather based on the fact that everything regarding the graphics backend, widget and tools appears sometimes as an indefinite loop of reinventing stuff and improving and never get the job done. Did I mention 64bit, UFFI,â¦ I'm glad all these topics are worked one and I see a bright future if half of them are done. But then sometimes it looks rather dark and the light at the end of the tunnel just went off :) > > <dark mode off/> now you are going to complain also for the dark theme? come on! ;) > > Norbert >> Dale >> >> On 10/21/16 6:50 AM, Norbert Hartl wrote: >>> Dale, >>> >>> I was not arguing against evolution. I was refering to the fact that work of others is mostly ignored just to come up with a potential weaker solution. >>> >>> Norbert >>> >>>> Am 21.10.2016 um 15:34 schrieb Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com <mailto:dale.henrichs@gemtalksystems.com>>: >>>> >>>> Norbert, >>>> >>>> It is also called evolution ... with each step forward new possibilities are revealed and often the old (current) way of doing things needs to change to better leverage these new possibilities ... and evolution is required[4]. >>>> Change is also painful and keeping up with an ever-changing system takes a lot of individual effort. >>>> >>>> If you don't want to deal with change, then pick a Pharo version and stick with it ... Pharo3.0 is still functional and I for one make sure that all new versions of Metacello work on older versions of Squeak, Pharo and GemStone[1] --- but you don't have to use the newer version of Metacello if you don't want to:). >>>> >>>> I use Pharo3.0 on a daily basis for tODE -- I decided that I wanted to spend my time evolving and changing tODE itself rather than spend a portion of every year porting to a newer version of Pharo. Fortunately I don't NEED the fancy new widgets in Pharo3.0 to make progress with tODE. >>>> Metacello is not the only project to ensure that it continues to function on older versions of Pharo. Seaside[2], Voyage[3] and I'm sure others make an effort to continue to function on older versions of Pharo --- the technology exists for maintaining compatibility with older versions of Pharo for those projects that aren't making the effort now. >>>> If you choose to leverage the benefits of the newer versions of Pharo, then you must accept the cost, but you can pace yourself if the rate of change becomes too much. >>>> >>>> Dale >>>> [1] https://travis-ci.org/dalehenrich/metacello-work/builds/168940183 <https://travis-ci.org/dalehenrich/metacello-work/builds/168940183> >>>> [2] https://travis-ci.org/SeasideSt/Seaside/builds/160382244 <https://travis-ci.org/SeasideSt/Seaside/builds/160382244> >>>> [3] https://travis-ci.org/pharo-nosql/voyage/builds/167012791 <https://travis-ci.org/pharo-nosql/voyage/builds/167012791> >>>> [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_evolution <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_evolution> >>>> >>>> On 10/21/16 12:10 AM, Norbert Hartl wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Am 21.10.2016 um 04:00 schrieb Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com <mailto:sean@clipperadams.com>>: >>>>> >>>>>> Denis Kudriashov wrote >>>>>>> I look at code and it seems you implemented another one new text model? >>>>>>> Why >>>>>>> you not use TxText? >>>>>> >>>>>> Argh. I know it's bad form to complain about gifts, but at the rate we >>>>>> reinvent the wheel, I often fear that I will be retired from programming >>>>>> before we have a sane text model :/ >>>>>> >>>>> It has a name and we should fight it: >>>>> >>>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here> >>>>> >>>>> Norbert >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Sean >>>>>> -- >>>>>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Sparta-v1-1-tp4919394p4919570.html <http://forum.world.st/ANN-Sparta-v1-1-tp4919394p4919570.html> >>>>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com <http://nabble.com/>. >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> >

Oct. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Again about scrolling with a trackpad

by Yuriy Tymchuk

I can understand that adding an option may be complicated, and that's why I'm asking if anyone actually need this, because otherwise we can just remove that functionality. Uko Sent from my iPhone > On 21 Oct 2016, at 16:47, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > This has been a problem for a very long time, it also happens with the magic mouse. > > It feels like there should be an option to disable interpreting side scrolling. > >> On 21 Oct 2016, at 16:44, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com> wrote: >> >> If I remember correctly on side scrolling the vm generates "ctrl + â" and "ctrl + â" keystroke events. Then some morph listens to them and switches focus. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On 21 Oct 2016, at 16:31, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> 2016-10-21 15:56 GMT+02:00 Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com>: >>> Ok, >>> >>> there is a problem that when you use trackpad with pharo and you scroll something strange happens. And it was documented that when you scroll sideways itâs registered as ctrl + arrow click and it switches focus. >>> >>> Now it seems that on Siera it became worse because now I cannot normally scroll at all. >>> >>> Additionally this causes a lot of problems: i.e. when someone wanted to remove history plugin from nautilus many of people protested because when your navigation is fucked up during scrolling you can get back. >>> >>> Now I started to think: why wonât we simply delete the code that registers these events. So I have a question, does anybody find this functionality useful? I find it super frustrating. And if everyone else does, maybe we can simply remove that. >>> >>> Also while the time passes, does anybody have any idea on how to hack Pharo to ignore these events? >>> >>> Which events? >>> >>> Because I need to work and I can notâ¦ >>> >>> Cheers. >>> Uko >>> > >

Oct. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Again about scrolling with a trackpad

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

This has been a problem for a very long time, it also happens with the magic mouse. It feels like there should be an option to disable interpreting side scrolling. > On 21 Oct 2016, at 16:44, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com> wrote: > > If I remember correctly on side scrolling the vm generates "ctrl + â" and "ctrl + â" keystroke events. Then some morph listens to them and switches focus. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 21 Oct 2016, at 16:31, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> 2016-10-21 15:56 GMT+02:00 Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com>: >> Ok, >> >> there is a problem that when you use trackpad with pharo and you scroll something strange happens. And it was documented that when you scroll sideways itâs registered as ctrl + arrow click and it switches focus. >> >> Now it seems that on Siera it became worse because now I cannot normally scroll at all. >> >> Additionally this causes a lot of problems: i.e. when someone wanted to remove history plugin from nautilus many of people protested because when your navigation is fucked up during scrolling you can get back. >> >> Now I started to think: why wonât we simply delete the code that registers these events. So I have a question, does anybody find this functionality useful? I find it super frustrating. And if everyone else does, maybe we can simply remove that. >> >> Also while the time passes, does anybody have any idea on how to hack Pharo to ignore these events? >> >> Which events? >> >> Because I need to work and I can notâ¦ >> >> Cheers. >> Uko >>

Oct. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Again about scrolling with a trackpad

by Yuriy Tymchuk

If I remember correctly on side scrolling the vm generates "ctrl + â" and "ctrl + â" keystroke events. Then some morph listens to them and switches focus. Sent from my iPhone > On 21 Oct 2016, at 16:31, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > 2016-10-21 15:56 GMT+02:00 Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk(a)me.com>: >> Ok, >> >> there is a problem that when you use trackpad with pharo and you scroll something strange happens. And it was documented that when you scroll sideways itâs registered as ctrl + arrow click and it switches focus. >> >> Now it seems that on Siera it became worse because now I cannot normally scroll at all. >> >> Additionally this causes a lot of problems: i.e. when someone wanted to remove history plugin from nautilus many of people protested because when your navigation is fucked up during scrolling you can get back. >> >> Now I started to think: why wonât we simply delete the code that registers these events. So I have a question, does anybody find this functionality useful? I find it super frustrating. And if everyone else does, maybe we can simply remove that. >> >> Also while the time passes, does anybody have any idea on how to hack Pharo to ignore these events? > > Which events? > >> Because I need to work and I can notâ¦ >> >> Cheers. >> Uko >

Oct. 21, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Sparta v1.1

by Sean P. DeNigris

Tudor Girba-2 wrote > I would kindly ask for patience. What is perhaps less clear is that this > editor is in the critical path of the GT project and we are committed to > deliver an editor that actually works. We are still investigating > different paths, both on the low level (like with Rope) and at the higher > level (like how to organize the layout). I really appreciate your long-term vision. My point/concern is that IMHO the most important thing is to "rachet up" - to alternate frequently between: a) releasing working versions of current best ideas (the many benefits of which include locking in progress, getting feedback from a wide audience, and getting buy-in/allowing users to adapt), and b) using that as a launching point for new experiments We are still using the same original awful text model that has stymied so many users/projects! Let's focus on and release something useable - anything - to take the pressure off while we invent the future. To illustrate the general principal, think about all the pain we have experienced because the last (promised) crucial step of cleaning and refactoring Squeak was not accomplished before beginning the next experiment! My question is: where is the sweet spot between the zero vision (but universal accessibility for actual work) of Java/C++, and infinite vision (at the extreme cost of immediately-usable artifacts) of Squeak/VPRI[1]? 1. This is not a criticism; they are just in a different business (cathedral building) ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/ANN-Sparta-v1-1-tp4919394p4919647.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 21, 2016