- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Replacing 'ReadStream on smth:' by 'smth readStream'

by Bill Schwab

Stef, Whether or not I agree depends on what you mean. While I think I see where Damien is going, my read is that #on: is actually negotiable, given that we should be able to either fix (or simply replace and than alias) ReadStream - two different ways of solving the same problem. But if you concerned about breaking some things that Damien and I are committed to fixing as part of the change, then I submit that we will be helpless when we move from the relatively calm world of streams to the chaos of morphic. Which part bothers you? The plan is to rennovate (sometimes messy) and *then* slowly evolve the resulting stable system, right? Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr 5/30/2008 3:27:20 PM >>> I agree with adrian. For pharo we should move but we should also make sure it is really stable. Stef On May 30, 2008, at 2:18 PM, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > Have you verified that your change does not inadvertently modify any > behavior? Its not likely, but changes like this can introduce subtle > bugs. For instance, Matrix overrides readStream. So if there exists > any use of "ReadStream on: aMatrix" that is there to bypass the > overridden behavior, the code will break. > > Cheers, > Adrian > > On May 30, 2008, at 10:47 , Damien Cassou wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I've just published in the pharo inbox a package for the System >> category. This change has been generated automatically through the >> rewriter: >> >> ParseTreeRewriter new >> replace: 'ReadStream on: ``@object' with: '``@object readStream'; >> yourself >> >> The formatting of the changed method is completely different due to >> the use of the refactoring browser. This makes the diffs not >> readable. >> Even if it is a real problem, I don't see any simple solution. What >> do >> you think? >> >> -- >> Damien Cassou >> Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good >> luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

May 30, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Replacing 'ReadStream on smth:' by 'smth readStream'

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

I agree with adrian. For pharo we should move but we should also make sure it is really stable. Stef On May 30, 2008, at 2:18 PM, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > Have you verified that your change does not inadvertently modify any > behavior? Its not likely, but changes like this can introduce subtle > bugs. For instance, Matrix overrides readStream. So if there exists > any use of "ReadStream on: aMatrix" that is there to bypass the > overridden behavior, the code will break. > > Cheers, > Adrian > > On May 30, 2008, at 10:47 , Damien Cassou wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I've just published in the pharo inbox a package for the System >> category. This change has been generated automatically through the >> rewriter: >> >> ParseTreeRewriter new >> replace: 'ReadStream on: ``@object' with: '``@object readStream'; >> yourself >> >> The formatting of the changed method is completely different due to >> the use of the refactoring browser. This makes the diffs not >> readable. >> Even if it is a real problem, I don't see any simple solution. What >> do >> you think? >> >> -- >> Damien Cassou >> Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good >> luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

May 30, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN][Pharo-dev] First release

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

yes we are. I hope to have a server soon for the universe On May 30, 2008, at 3:06 PM, Damien Cassou wrote: > Hi, > > I've published the first version of Pharo-dev. It is hosted on gforge > as usual: https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/?group_id=1299. I will try to > generate new pharo-dev images when I generate squeak-dev images if > anyone is interested. Are you? > > Bye > > -- > Damien Cassou > Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good > luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu) > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

May 30, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] new to pharo

by Alain Plantec

> > ok, I'm starting by chasing all senders to the isMorphic message I've a .cs that touch a lot of methods everywhere**. now, what is the procedure ? can I put my .cs somewhere, give it to somebody, make a .mcz with it ? (I do not known how) sorry for all these stupid questions, I try to understand the update process. thanks alain ** for all #isMorphic senders: "self isMorphic ifTrue: [XXXXX] ifFalse: [YYYYY]" is replaced with "XXXXX"

May 30, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Replacing 'ReadStream on smth:' by 'smth readStream'

by Damien Cassou

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 6:17 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch> wrote: > No I don't agree. Because it is not likely that there is a test for Matrix > that will show a potential bug. I just wanted to point out that it is > important to precisely look at the effect of such "global" transformations. > (E.g. like Edgar tried to replace all #== with #= IIRC ;) > > With your proposed change, I think it is unlikely you will break anything, > but you cannot say for sure without detailled *manual* checking. The > difficulty is that you theoretically needed to verify that there is never > passed a Matrix instance to "ReadStream on:". I don't understand why you are choosing this example of Matrix. Since Matrix is not an Array nor a String, it is impossible that a code like 'ReadStream on: aMatrix' ever worked. In fact, this reasoning could be applied to any other class which is neither Array nor String or one of their subclasses. > Also to consider with such changes is that you may break external code that > you don't know of. How? If don't remove any method. Existing code should still work. Do you have any example in mind? >To sum up, I'm not against such improvements at all, but > they have to be done carefully, i.e., the argument that tests will show any > problem does not hold. I knew the tests argument did not hold because there are so few tests in Squeak, I was joking :-). I'm trying to do the changes carrefully, that's why I commited things package after package instead of doing it globally. -- Damien Cassou Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

May 30, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Replacing 'ReadStream on smth:' by 'smth readStream'

by Bill Schwab

Damien, I don't think I care how we do it (Nile should be fine), so long as we end up with good stream behavior. In my mind, that means breaking some things (on an informal survey, I find a lot of stuff that should not care because it never hits the nil return value), and I am volunteering to help fix what I help break, provided we agree up front to use the transformed code (assuming it works). I doubt the latter will a problem with this group, as long as we plan and then do the work. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> damien.cassou(a)gmail.com 05/30/08 12:02 PM >>> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 5:54 PM, Bill Schwab <BSchwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: > Damien, > > The only potential problem is that you assume tests will catch everything. However, I think streams are broken, and I will certainly help fix what we break in getting them right. I guess the change I'm applying won't cause any problem but I can't be sure. I won't loose time fixing Streams as I would prefer installing Nile if everybody agree. -- Damien Cassou Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu) _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

May 30, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Replacing 'ReadStream on smth:' by 'smth readStream'

by Bill Schwab

Adrian, Fair enough, but some house cleaning is also in order, and it *will* break some external code. If we fail to do the right things, we will have just another failed fork. Do the right things, and people will do right things to their code to get the benefits of a successful open Smalltalk. Just my 2 asCents. BTW, I *think* you will find that anyone wanting to fix external code can simply grab an image with it, use the what ever transformations we end up defining on their code (installing the RB might be a challenge??), export the fixed code, and file it into Pharo. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> adi(a)netstyle.ch 05/30/08 12:17 PM >>> On May 30, 2008, at 15:37 , Damien Cassou wrote: > On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch> > wrote: >> Have you verified that your change does not inadvertently modify any >> behavior? Its not likely, but changes like this can introduce >> subtle bugs. >> For instance, Matrix overrides readStream. So if there exists any >> use of >> "ReadStream on: aMatrix" that is there to bypass the overridden >> behavior, >> the code will break. > > It should not break anything (if it does, the test will fail and I > will fix things :-)). In fact, ReadStream only deals with > SequenceableStreams so it should be ok. Do you agree? No I don't agree. Because it is not likely that there is a test for Matrix that will show a potential bug. I just wanted to point out that it is important to precisely look at the effect of such "global" transformations. (E.g. like Edgar tried to replace all #== with #= IIRC ;) With your proposed change, I think it is unlikely you will break anything, but you cannot say for sure without detailled *manual* checking. The difficulty is that you theoretically needed to verify that there is never passed a Matrix instance to "ReadStream on:". Also to consider with such changes is that you may break external code that you don't know of. To sum up, I'm not against such improvements at all, but they have to be done carefully, i.e., the argument that tests will show any problem does not hold. Cheers, Adrian > -- > Damien Cassou > Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good > luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu) > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

May 30, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Replacing 'ReadStream on smth:' by 'smth readStream'

by Adrian Lienhard

On May 30, 2008, at 15:37 , Damien Cassou wrote: > On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch> > wrote: >> Have you verified that your change does not inadvertently modify any >> behavior? Its not likely, but changes like this can introduce >> subtle bugs. >> For instance, Matrix overrides readStream. So if there exists any >> use of >> "ReadStream on: aMatrix" that is there to bypass the overridden >> behavior, >> the code will break. > > It should not break anything (if it does, the test will fail and I > will fix things :-)). In fact, ReadStream only deals with > SequenceableStreams so it should be ok. Do you agree? No I don't agree. Because it is not likely that there is a test for Matrix that will show a potential bug. I just wanted to point out that it is important to precisely look at the effect of such "global" transformations. (E.g. like Edgar tried to replace all #== with #= IIRC ;) With your proposed change, I think it is unlikely you will break anything, but you cannot say for sure without detailled *manual* checking. The difficulty is that you theoretically needed to verify that there is never passed a Matrix instance to "ReadStream on:". Also to consider with such changes is that you may break external code that you don't know of. To sum up, I'm not against such improvements at all, but they have to be done carefully, i.e., the argument that tests will show any problem does not hold. Cheers, Adrian > -- > Damien Cassou > Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good > luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu) > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

May 30, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Replacing 'ReadStream on smth:' by 'smth readStream'

by Damien Cassou

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 5:54 PM, Bill Schwab <BSchwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: > Damien, > > The only potential problem is that you assume tests will catch everything. However, I think streams are broken, and I will certainly help fix what we break in getting them right. I guess the change I'm applying won't cause any problem but I can't be sure. I won't loose time fixing Streams as I would prefer installing Nile if everybody agree. -- Damien Cassou Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

May 30, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Replacing 'ReadStream on smth:' by 'smth readStream'

by Bill Schwab

Damien, The only potential problem is that you assume tests will catch everything. However, I think streams are broken, and I will certainly help fix what we break in getting them right. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 846-1285 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> damien.cassou(a)gmail.com 05/30/08 9:37 AM >>> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch> wrote: > Have you verified that your change does not inadvertently modify any > behavior? Its not likely, but changes like this can introduce subtle bugs. > For instance, Matrix overrides readStream. So if there exists any use of > "ReadStream on: aMatrix" that is there to bypass the overridden behavior, > the code will break. It should not break anything (if it does, the test will fail and I will fix things :-)). In fact, ReadStream only deals with SequenceableStreams so it should be ok. Do you agree? -- Damien Cassou Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu) _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

May 30, 2008