- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Throwing out the windowing support from core VM features

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

this sounds interesting. But I think that this is important to still be able to not rely on external libraries when you want. so what is the exact difference between having it for free or optional - ? that you need to implement the primitive on platform where you do not need? - ? that the system is not layered in consequence? Did you check the work made around "ffnestraria" ? Then what is important is to have good more then proof of concepts. This is sometimes that we would be interested in. Stef On Sep 13, 2008, at 8:58 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > Hello, > > i'd like to discuss with you this quite radical idea. > I , in particular, not happy that windowing in squeak VM is mandatory. > Sure, you can run VM with -headless (or whatever), but this actually > not solving anything, since > VM still in much of control, how to deal with squeak window and how to > manage messages etc. > > What i would like to see, is to completely detach windowing > functionality into a separate VM plugin, making sure that: > a) VM can be built w/o this plugin > b) a language side is in total control to decide whether create and > use window & display or not. > > This would require to deprecate some of 'blue book' primitives, which > coming as built-in VM features , such as: > - displayBits & friends > - fullDisplayUpdate > - keyboard & mouse event handling > > The point is, that squeak grew out on many platforms and embedded > devices. Some of them don't have a usual input devices, like keyboard > & mouse, so it is completely pointless to require VM to support I/O > with these devices as mandatory option. > Same for display. I would be happy to have full control at language > side whether i need display or not , instead of having it 'for free' > from a start and then using workarounds to not show/use it using > command line (while language side still thinks its present). > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Sept. 13, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Re: Building VM Freetype

by Igor Stasenko

2008/9/13 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > Sorry that you refer to just instruction. > Then I would suggest that you register to the fgorge.inria.fr > use team ADAM when creating yur account > once you have done that I will add you to the pharo project > then we will be able to use the svn and > the uploads > done. login: sig > Stef > > > On Sep 13, 2008, at 8:36 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > >> 2008/9/13 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: >> >>>> Okay, who wants the VM? And where i can put the stuff + instructions + >>>> blablabla? >>> >>> You can use the code google page for that. >> >> Can you be more specific? >> After reading through http://code.google.com/p/pharo/ >> can't find any directions, where i can put a pre-built VM, or do any >> upload. I doubt that pharo inbox at squeaksource is appropriate place >> for VM binaries. >> >>> >>> Stef >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Sept. 13, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Re: Building VM Freetype

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Sep 13, 2008, at 8:24 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > 2008/9/13 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: >> I hope other will answer but I thought that we could have a pluggin >> and bundle in the deployed packages. >> The idea for pharo is to have a similar setup than seaside a one >> click app >> so the >> vm and its plugin would be there (but may be the plugin should not >> be in the >> image). > > Plugin is built-in in the VM. But freetype library is coming as > separate dynamic library. > Is this ok? > > There can be another option, but it would require to change the plugin > code - to not link VM with import lib, but to load freetype.dll on > demand. The plugin can simply check if this .dll available and start > using it, or if not - fail to initialize, telling the system that > plugin functionality is not available. I'm convinced that I'm not an expert here. I have the impression that the second option is better, May be we should wait for other feedback on the idea. Stef > > >> >> Mike or john? On sophie how did you manage that the freetype bundle >> could >> not be present? >> > > Actually, to build a plugin, you need just headers + freetype.def file > which then can be used to > create the imports library from it. > Building a freetype.dll can be completely separate process. > > I can remove dependency from freetype.lib, and leave only a > freetype.def and create import lib by own, when making VM. > But this is not safe, because now you must guarantee that you using > correct .dll. (well, you need to guarantee it in either case). > >> If I remember correctly some people on squeak have been recompiling >> it for >> 64 bits >> >>> I done with it. >>> The resulting VM will not start without freetype.dll. >>> Should i link it statically? But then you should hone their license >>> stuff... >>> >>> Also, building freetype on windoze impossible using gnutools which >>> used for building VM. >>> It's make simply can't understand some things, which i assume appear >>> in later make versions. >>> So, i building freetype using my msys/mingw environment, and then >>> simply producing >>> - freetype.lib (imports library) >>> - freetype.dll >>> >>> or maybe, i wrong, maybe it can be built using gnutools, but this >>> would require too much voodoo dancing. >>> it would be cool to make it cleanly build w/o manual work, but i'm >>> not >>> high expert in makefiles black voodoo. >>> >>> Okay, who wants the VM? And where i can put the stuff + >>> instructions + >>> blablabla? >> >> You can use the code google page for that. >> >> Stef >>> >>> >>> 2008/9/12 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: >>>> >>>> 2008/9/12 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: >>>>> >>>>> As always, things not working out of the box. >>>>> >>>>> - VM builds from unzipped VM sources OK >>>>> - but for building with VMMaker generated sources, had to fix >>>>> 'gnuify' >>>>> file to make a clean build >>>>> >>>>> i dreaming to build vm straight from squeak, without horrid >>>>> makefiles. >>>>> I heard that Keith did a 'Bob' tool which can be used as a kind of >>>>> make utility. >>>>> But i think, to fully replace makefiles, it needs an >>>>> OSProcessPlugin >>>>> to be able to interact with OS/shell. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Next step, tried to load freetype plugin.... >>>> http://source.impara.de/freetype/Freetype-Plugin-JMM.53.mcz >>>> http://source.impara.de/freetype/Freetype-Plugin-tween.51.mcz >>>> >>>> and guess what? YES! It can't be loaded! :) >>>> >>>> MC complains about following: >>>> >>>> This package depends on the following classes: >>>> FT2Constants >>>> >>>> The FT2Constants is the pool dictionary used by plugin. But not >>>> defined within package. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Best regards, >>>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Best regards, >>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >>> <fonts.jpg>_______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Sept. 13, 2008

[Pharo-project] Throwing out the windowing support from core VM features

by Igor Stasenko

Hello, i'd like to discuss with you this quite radical idea. I , in particular, not happy that windowing in squeak VM is mandatory. Sure, you can run VM with -headless (or whatever), but this actually not solving anything, since VM still in much of control, how to deal with squeak window and how to manage messages etc. What i would like to see, is to completely detach windowing functionality into a separate VM plugin, making sure that: a) VM can be built w/o this plugin b) a language side is in total control to decide whether create and use window & display or not. This would require to deprecate some of 'blue book' primitives, which coming as built-in VM features , such as: - displayBits & friends - fullDisplayUpdate - keyboard & mouse event handling The point is, that squeak grew out on many platforms and embedded devices. Some of them don't have a usual input devices, like keyboard & mouse, so it is completely pointless to require VM to support I/O with these devices as mandatory option. Same for display. I would be happy to have full control at language side whether i need display or not , instead of having it 'for free' from a start and then using workarounds to not show/use it using command line (while language side still thinks its present). -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Sept. 13, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Re: Building VM Freetype

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Sorry that you refer to just instruction. Then I would suggest that you register to the fgorge.inria.fr use team ADAM when creating yur account once you have done that I will add you to the pharo project then we will be able to use the svn and the uploads Stef On Sep 13, 2008, at 8:36 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > 2008/9/13 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > >>> Okay, who wants the VM? And where i can put the stuff + >>> instructions + >>> blablabla? >> >> You can use the code google page for that. > > Can you be more specific? > After reading through http://code.google.com/p/pharo/ > can't find any directions, where i can put a pre-built VM, or do any > upload. I doubt that pharo inbox at squeaksource is appropriate place > for VM binaries. > >> >> Stef > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Sept. 13, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Re: Building VM Freetype

by Igor Stasenko

2008/9/13 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: >> Okay, who wants the VM? And where i can put the stuff + instructions + >> blablabla? > > You can use the code google page for that. Can you be more specific? After reading through http://code.google.com/p/pharo/ can't find any directions, where i can put a pre-built VM, or do any upload. I doubt that pharo inbox at squeaksource is appropriate place for VM binaries. > > Stef -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Sept. 13, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Re: Building VM Freetype

by Igor Stasenko

2008/9/13 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > I hope other will answer but I thought that we could have a pluggin > and bundle in the deployed packages. > The idea for pharo is to have a similar setup than seaside a one click app > so the > vm and its plugin would be there (but may be the plugin should not be in the > image). Plugin is built-in in the VM. But freetype library is coming as separate dynamic library. Is this ok? There can be another option, but it would require to change the plugin code - to not link VM with import lib, but to load freetype.dll on demand. The plugin can simply check if this .dll available and start using it, or if not - fail to initialize, telling the system that plugin functionality is not available. > > Mike or john? On sophie how did you manage that the freetype bundle could > not be present? > Actually, to build a plugin, you need just headers + freetype.def file which then can be used to create the imports library from it. Building a freetype.dll can be completely separate process. I can remove dependency from freetype.lib, and leave only a freetype.def and create import lib by own, when making VM. But this is not safe, because now you must guarantee that you using correct .dll. (well, you need to guarantee it in either case). > If I remember correctly some people on squeak have been recompiling it for > 64 bits > >> I done with it. >> The resulting VM will not start without freetype.dll. >> Should i link it statically? But then you should hone their license >> stuff... >> >> Also, building freetype on windoze impossible using gnutools which >> used for building VM. >> It's make simply can't understand some things, which i assume appear >> in later make versions. >> So, i building freetype using my msys/mingw environment, and then >> simply producing >> - freetype.lib (imports library) >> - freetype.dll >> >> or maybe, i wrong, maybe it can be built using gnutools, but this >> would require too much voodoo dancing. >> it would be cool to make it cleanly build w/o manual work, but i'm not >> high expert in makefiles black voodoo. >> >> Okay, who wants the VM? And where i can put the stuff + instructions + >> blablabla? > > You can use the code google page for that. > > Stef >> >> >> 2008/9/12 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: >>> >>> 2008/9/12 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: >>>> >>>> As always, things not working out of the box. >>>> >>>> - VM builds from unzipped VM sources OK >>>> - but for building with VMMaker generated sources, had to fix 'gnuify' >>>> file to make a clean build >>>> >>>> i dreaming to build vm straight from squeak, without horrid makefiles. >>>> I heard that Keith did a 'Bob' tool which can be used as a kind of >>>> make utility. >>>> But i think, to fully replace makefiles, it needs an OSProcessPlugin >>>> to be able to interact with OS/shell. >>>> >>> >>> Next step, tried to load freetype plugin.... >>> http://source.impara.de/freetype/Freetype-Plugin-JMM.53.mcz >>> http://source.impara.de/freetype/Freetype-Plugin-tween.51.mcz >>> >>> and guess what? YES! It can't be loaded! :) >>> >>> MC complains about following: >>> >>> This package depends on the following classes: >>> FT2Constants >>> >>> The FT2Constants is the pool dictionary used by plugin. But not >>> defined within package. >>> >>> -- >>> Best regards, >>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >> <fonts.jpg>_______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Sept. 13, 2008

[Pharo-project] Re: Building VM Freetype

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

I hope other will answer but I thought that we could have a pluggin and bundle in the deployed packages. The idea for pharo is to have a similar setup than seaside a one click app so the vm and its plugin would be there (but may be the plugin should not be in the image). Mike or john? On sophie how did you manage that the freetype bundle could not be present? If I remember correctly some people on squeak have been recompiling it for 64 bits > I done with it. > The resulting VM will not start without freetype.dll. > Should i link it statically? But then you should hone their license > stuff... > > Also, building freetype on windoze impossible using gnutools which > used for building VM. > It's make simply can't understand some things, which i assume appear > in later make versions. > So, i building freetype using my msys/mingw environment, and then > simply producing > - freetype.lib (imports library) > - freetype.dll > > or maybe, i wrong, maybe it can be built using gnutools, but this > would require too much voodoo dancing. > it would be cool to make it cleanly build w/o manual work, but i'm not > high expert in makefiles black voodoo. > > Okay, who wants the VM? And where i can put the stuff + instructions + > blablabla? You can use the code google page for that. Stef > > > 2008/9/12 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: >> 2008/9/12 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: >>> As always, things not working out of the box. >>> >>> - VM builds from unzipped VM sources OK >>> - but for building with VMMaker generated sources, had to fix >>> 'gnuify' >>> file to make a clean build >>> >>> i dreaming to build vm straight from squeak, without horrid >>> makefiles. >>> I heard that Keith did a 'Bob' tool which can be used as a kind of >>> make utility. >>> But i think, to fully replace makefiles, it needs an OSProcessPlugin >>> to be able to interact with OS/shell. >>> >> >> Next step, tried to load freetype plugin.... >> http://source.impara.de/freetype/Freetype-Plugin-JMM.53.mcz >> http://source.impara.de/freetype/Freetype-Plugin-tween.51.mcz >> >> and guess what? YES! It can't be loaded! :) >> >> MC complains about following: >> >> This package depends on the following classes: >> FT2Constants >> >> The FT2Constants is the pool dictionary used by plugin. But not >> defined within package. >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >> > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > <fonts.jpg>_______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Sept. 13, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] how to improve the menus

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Lukas sorry my question was not clearly stated: how can we get some important menus in OB such as look for code containing string and a couple of others. Stef On Sep 12, 2008, at 11:55 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: >> So who is responsible for the menus in OB? > > The menus in the columns come from OB. > > The menu in the edit pane comes from Squeak though and certain > commands are intercepted by OB. I think it would make sense if OB > changed that and provided the whole menu by itself. > > Cheers, > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Sept. 13, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Re: how to load sophie

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

txxxx :) On Sep 12, 2008, at 9:14 PM, Andrew Tween wrote: > > "StÃ©phane Ducasse" <Stephane.Ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote in message news:7916FF5C-0CA0-4562-A69F-65B4B54C8067@inria.fr > ... >> Hi mike >> >> I would like to browse the code but not only from MC but in a real >> image. >> How do I get sophie loaded (even in 3.8 or others). >> In particular I would like to see how URI are used in the code. > > If you don't want to install it all from scratch then... > > If you download Sophie from www.sophieproject.org (http://www.sophieproject.org/download > ) > and run it, then the File>>Exit menu item will close the Sophie > application but leave the Squeak image running so you can open > browsers etc. > > Cheers, > Andy > >> >> Setf > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Sept. 13, 2008