- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Re: Removing default fonts

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

I understand your point. But I do not have a measure for self-contained system and without crap. So keeping the fonts is important to avoid to rely on a lot of external software. So to me it makes sense to keep and improve the existing while at the same time use other when it makes sense but not to the point that self contained is damaged. Stef On Oct 21, 2008, at 10:20 AM, Antony Blakey wrote: > > On 21/10/2008, at 5:43 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >> for the vision behind pharo >> imagine all the implications behind >> >> â¢ Better for the better >> â¢ Beauty to learn from >> â¢ Not backward compatible >> â¢ Clean, lean and fast >> >> We want a system in which >> - we can plug different UI frameworks >> - clean network, clean file system, clean fonts, clean events, >> clean compiler... >> - that we could bootstrap: this is one of the goal also >> - with robust software engineering practices (packages with >> documentation, tests, smalllint rules attached). > > But 'imagining implications' isn't really useful as objective input > into decision making, or anything that you can measure progress, or > even success against. I'll just point to the decision about FreeType > - where are the goals/constraints from which that decision follows? > > Anyway, I'm not trying to piss anyone off, so I'll bow out of this > discussion. > > Antony Blakey > ------------- > CTO, Linkuistics Pty Ltd > Ph: 0438 840 787 > > The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of > comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge > and controversy. > -- Martin Luther King > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Oct. 21, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Re: Removing default fonts

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> >> have a look at the code and you will get the answer. >> No giant spagetthi code in pharo. >> I do not want to argue endlessly on that. Squeak is the forum for >> that kind of discussions. > > I'm not arguing one way or the other, and as you (StÃ©phane) know, > I'm doing a much more brutal pruning. I'm *only* suggesting that you > develop some guidelines and principles that are objective, > measurable, reasonable (as in, useful in reasoning) and useful for > decision making, to guide the development and work that goes into > Pharo. I have one: less crap and not working stuff. :) Stef

Oct. 21, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] OldSocket removal

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Thanks!!! Stef On Oct 21, 2008, at 9:14 AM, Damien Cassou wrote: > I've started working on OldSocket removal: > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=275. I need someone to > review my first changes. > > -- > Damien Cassou > Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good > luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu) > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Oct. 21, 2008

[Pharo-project] Bleeding edge version of OB

by Alexandre Bergel

is now available in Pharo. It shows system complexity and the class blueprint. Just load ScriptLoader loadSuperOB Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Oct. 21, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] squeak sites not available

by Marcus Denker

On 21.10.2008, at 10:03, danil osipchuk wrote: > Hi all, > > As everybody have noticed squeak server is down. > I wonder - if the squeak map is somehow mirrored. I'd like to > install a bunch of packages into image but both PackageUniverse and > SqueakMap browser do not work (obviously). How do folks cope with > that? They dont. They just suffer silently. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- denker(a)iam.unibe.ch http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker

Oct. 21, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Re: Removing default fonts

by Antony Blakey

On 21/10/2008, at 5:43 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > for the vision behind pharo > imagine all the implications behind > > â¢ Better for the better > â¢ Beauty to learn from > â¢ Not backward compatible > â¢ Clean, lean and fast > > We want a system in which > - we can plug different UI frameworks > - clean network, clean file system, clean fonts, clean events, > clean compiler... > - that we could bootstrap: this is one of the goal also > - with robust software engineering practices (packages with > documentation, tests, smalllint rules attached). But 'imagining implications' isn't really useful as objective input into decision making, or anything that you can measure progress, or even success against. I'll just point to the decision about FreeType - where are the goals/constraints from which that decision follows? Anyway, I'm not trying to piss anyone off, so I'll bow out of this discussion. Antony Blakey ------------- CTO, Linkuistics Pty Ltd Ph: 0438 840 787 The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. -- Martin Luther King

Oct. 21, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Re: Removing default fonts

by Antony Blakey

On 21/10/2008, at 5:00 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > On Oct 20, 2008, at 11:44 PM, Antony Blakey wrote: > >> Another important class of constraints would be what packages must >> not be broken e.g. must Whisker still work?, and thus what packages >> can/should be removed. > > who said that? No one. It was a hypothetical. > have a look at the code and you will get the answer. > No giant spagetthi code in pharo. > I do not want to argue endlessly on that. Squeak is the forum for > that kind of discussions. I'm not arguing one way or the other, and as you (StÃ©phane) know, I'm doing a much more brutal pruning. I'm *only* suggesting that you develop some guidelines and principles that are objective, measurable, reasonable (as in, useful in reasoning) and useful for decision making, to guide the development and work that goes into Pharo. Antony Blakey -------------------------- CTO, Linkuistics Pty Ltd Ph: 0438 840 787 Lack of will power has caused more failure than lack of intelligence or ability. -- Flower A. Newhouse

Oct. 21, 2008

[Pharo-project] squeak sites not available

by danil osipchuk

Hi all, As everybody have noticed squeak server is down. I wonder - if the squeak map is somehow mirrored. I'd like to install a bunch of packages into image but both PackageUniverse and SqueakMap browser do not work (obviously). How do folks cope with that? regards, Danil

Oct. 21, 2008

[Pharo-project] OldSocket removal

by Damien Cassou

I've started working on OldSocket removal: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=275. I need someone to review my first changes. -- Damien Cassou Peter von der AhÃ©: Â«I'm beginning to see why Gilad wished us good luckÂ». (http://blogs.sun.com/ahe/entry/override_snafu)

Oct. 21, 2008

Re: [Pharo-project] Re: Removing default fonts

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

for the vision behind pharo imagine all the implications behind â¢ Better for the better â¢ Beauty to learn from â¢ Not backward compatible â¢ Clean, lean and fast We want a system in which - we can plug different UI frameworks - clean network, clean file system, clean fonts, clean events, clean compiler... - that we could bootstrap: this is one of the goal also - with robust software engineering practices (packages with documentation, tests, smalllint rules attached). Stef On Oct 21, 2008, at 8:47 AM, Marcus Denker wrote: > > On 20.10.2008, at 23:44, Antony Blakey wrote: >> >> >> And there must be some context behind wanting to remove eToys/ >> BookMorph. Is it obsolete/unused? Is it used only by a class of >> user that you explicitly don't wish to target? >> > > eToys is, implementation wise, not written very cleanly. The > implementors of etoys always knew 100% that "this hack is the last, > then we rewrite everything". If you > do that for 10 years, hmm, it shows in code quality. > > EToys, the one on the OLPC, is based on 3.8 plus *many* changes. > Etoys will never be based on 3.9 or 3.10. Thus the etoys in 3.10 (or > pharo) would be a fork indpependend > of the main eToy branch. Nobody would be interested in maintaining > that. > > But seriously, look at the code. It's a nice example for many > things. For example: the prototype will be the product. Or: Never > plan to redo everything. You will not. > It kind of validates the idea that *evolution* is the most important > property of software, and if we want to make progress, supporting > evolution is *the* thing to do. > The next revolution in software will be a system that supports > evolution. > > Etoys + the support are maybe (conservative estimate) 100.000 of > 280.000 lines of code in Pharo. Just imagine how much less > maintance, less bugs and in general > cleaner architecture we will have. > > Marcus > > -- > Marcus Denker -- denker(a)iam.unibe.ch > http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~denker > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Oct. 21, 2008