- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

When I here that I'm like puzzled. We never said that we will not integrate code that speed up pharo. We started with marcus to clean morphic and there are certainly a large place for possible improvement. Now if you wait that we do it. May be it will happen or may be not. Because we have also quite busy agenda. Stef On Feb 7, 2009, at 6:31 PM, Ramon Leon wrote: >> The biggest concern I have right now is speed. I'm not >> saying Pharo is too slow; I'm simply admitting that I do not >> know whether it is fast enough for some of the things I want to do. > > +10 to this. > > The UI is looking really great lately, but overall the experience is > it's > just too slow. Cracking open a raw squeak base image reminds me how > snappy > the UI used to be. Not really complaining, it's totally bearable, > but it'd > sure be nice if the pretty UI was quick and snappy, and you are > asking. > > Ramon Leon > http://onsmalltalk.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Feb. 7, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Igor :) do you have some code so that we make progress on that side. On Feb 7, 2009, at 8:23 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > 2009/2/7 Ramon Leon <ramon.leon(a)allresnet.com>: >>> The biggest concern I have right now is speed. I'm not >>> saying Pharo is too slow; I'm simply admitting that I do not >>> know whether it is fast enough for some of the things I want to do. >> >> +10 to this. >> >> The UI is looking really great lately, but overall the experience >> is it's >> just too slow. Cracking open a raw squeak base image reminds me >> how snappy >> the UI used to be. Not really complaining, it's totally bearable, >> but it'd >> sure be nice if the pretty UI was quick and snappy, and you are >> asking. >> > Sure thing > MessageTally spyOn:[self fullDrawOn: World assuredCanvas] "where self > is an OB system window morph" > > 16.7% {10ms} BalloonEngine>>copyLoopFaster > 11.7% {7ms} SimpleBorder>>frameRectangle:on: > 6.7% {4ms} Array(SequenceableCollection)>>select: > 5.0% {3ms} ByteString(String)>>= > 5.0% {3ms} SmallInteger(Number)>>to:by:do: > 5.0% {3ms} > GrafPort(BitBlt)>>primDisplayString:from:to:map:xTable:kern: > 5.0% {3ms} BorderStyle>>frameRectangle:on: > 3.3% {2ms} ByteSymbol>>species > 3.3% {2ms} ByteString class(String class)>>new: > > total 61ms. > > some hot points crying to be optimized: > cache the OBMonticelloPackageNode>>classCategories , which get > rebuilt each time you draw the window. > this can make following numbers much smaller: > 5.0% {3ms} ByteString(String)>>= > 6.7% {4ms} Array(SequenceableCollection)>>select: > 3.3% {2ms} ByteString class(String class)>>new: > > Making SystemWindow>>drawDropShadowOn: to do nothing makes a > difference: > > [10 timesRepeat: [self fullDrawOn: World assuredCanvas ]] timeToRun > with shadows: 530 > without: 473 > ~ 10% speedup > > Changing the theme makes some difference (no shadows/with shadows): > - Watery 2: 50/60 ms > - Standard Squeak: 38/43 ms > - Soft Squeak: 46/55 ms > - Vistary: 56/62ms > (keep in mind these numbers are polluted with messageTally) > > As to me, the theme variancy is quite acceptable - a most complex > theme (with transulency) is drawn just 50% slower than most simple > one. > > As for, > 3.3% {2ms} ByteString class(String class)>>new: > > Total count of ByteString>>new: calls during > GlobalCounter reset. > self fullDrawOn: World assuredCanvas. > GlobalCounter counters copy inspect > > is 7146, > which again makes me look suspicious at OB here.. Hey! Are we drawing, > or processing a text?!?! > > >> Ramon Leon >> http://onsmalltalk.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Feb. 7, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes

by Igor Stasenko

2009/2/7 Ramon Leon <ramon.leon(a)allresnet.com>: >> The biggest concern I have right now is speed. I'm not >> saying Pharo is too slow; I'm simply admitting that I do not >> know whether it is fast enough for some of the things I want to do. > > +10 to this. > > The UI is looking really great lately, but overall the experience is it's > just too slow. Cracking open a raw squeak base image reminds me how snappy > the UI used to be. Not really complaining, it's totally bearable, but it'd > sure be nice if the pretty UI was quick and snappy, and you are asking. > Sure thing MessageTally spyOn:[self fullDrawOn: World assuredCanvas] "where self is an OB system window morph" 16.7% {10ms} BalloonEngine>>copyLoopFaster 11.7% {7ms} SimpleBorder>>frameRectangle:on: 6.7% {4ms} Array(SequenceableCollection)>>select: 5.0% {3ms} ByteString(String)>>= 5.0% {3ms} SmallInteger(Number)>>to:by:do: 5.0% {3ms} GrafPort(BitBlt)>>primDisplayString:from:to:map:xTable:kern: 5.0% {3ms} BorderStyle>>frameRectangle:on: 3.3% {2ms} ByteSymbol>>species 3.3% {2ms} ByteString class(String class)>>new: total 61ms. some hot points crying to be optimized: cache the OBMonticelloPackageNode>>classCategories , which get rebuilt each time you draw the window. this can make following numbers much smaller: 5.0% {3ms} ByteString(String)>>= 6.7% {4ms} Array(SequenceableCollection)>>select: 3.3% {2ms} ByteString class(String class)>>new: Making SystemWindow>>drawDropShadowOn: to do nothing makes a difference: [10 timesRepeat: [self fullDrawOn: World assuredCanvas ]] timeToRun with shadows: 530 without: 473 ~ 10% speedup Changing the theme makes some difference (no shadows/with shadows): - Watery 2: 50/60 ms - Standard Squeak: 38/43 ms - Soft Squeak: 46/55 ms - Vistary: 56/62ms (keep in mind these numbers are polluted with messageTally) As to me, the theme variancy is quite acceptable - a most complex theme (with transulency) is drawn just 50% slower than most simple one. As for, 3.3% {2ms} ByteString class(String class)>>new: Total count of ByteString>>new: calls during GlobalCounter reset. self fullDrawOn: World assuredCanvas. GlobalCounter counters copy inspect is 7146, which again makes me look suspicious at OB here.. Hey! Are we drawing, or processing a text?!?! > Ramon Leon > http://onsmalltalk.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Feb. 7, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] It's time for Squeak 4.0!

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

thanks matthew!!! Stef On Feb 7, 2009, at 3:25 PM, Matthew Fulmer wrote: > On Sat, Feb 07, 2009 at 10:18:27AM +0100, St?phane Ducasse wrote: >> Matthew >> >> where did you get the list of people that signed the MIT agreement? I >> asked several times >> but never got any answer. > > The list of contributors is part of Yoshiki's > MethodAuthorship package: > > http://www.squeaksource.com/MethodAuthorship.html > > See the methods in the #data category of class Authorship > > I attached a log of an irc conversation with Yoshiki that may > clear a few things up. It is also included with > http://ftp.squeak.org/4.0alpha/squeak4.0-relicensingTools.zip > > -- > Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/ > <yoshi-irc.txt>_______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Feb. 7, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes

by Ramon Leon

> The biggest concern I have right now is speed. I'm not > saying Pharo is too slow; I'm simply admitting that I do not > know whether it is fast enough for some of the things I want to do. +10 to this. The UI is looking really great lately, but overall the experience is it's just too slow. Cracking open a raw squeak base image reminds me how snappy the UI used to be. Not really complaining, it's totally bearable, but it'd sure be nice if the pretty UI was quick and snappy, and you are asking. Ramon Leon http://onsmalltalk.com

Feb. 7, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] looking for Unicode testers

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Excellent!! It works perfect for me: Ubuntu, UTF8, latin american keyboard. I test Ã¡Ã©ÃºÃÃ³ Ã± and all works well :) On the other hand, I test changing the fonts for code, and also works ok. Good news! thanks, mariano On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Chris Kassopulo <ckasso(a)sprynet.com> wrote: > On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 18:48:29 +0100, Lukas Renggli wrote: > > >> It is the pharo one click with a modified (slightly outdated) image and > >> an updated Unix VM. > > > > The one-click thing does not work on my Mac, nothing happens. I can open > > the image with another VM though. > > > > Is this a special VM that comes with the one-click image? I might miss > > the context. > > > >> Please try out this version on different platforms and check if unicode > >> keyboard input, clipboard copy and paste as well as filenames are > >> working. > > > > Pressing any key-combination with the apple-key raises an error > > "MessageNotUnderstood UndefinedObject>>#<". > > > > Pasting most of the texts from this website > > <http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/utf8.html> raises an error: "Invalid > > utf8 input detected". > > > > Cheers, > > Lukas > > On linux pasting Ã¤ or Ã© from that same webpage gives > "Error: Invalid utf8 input detected" > > How do I input those characters from the keyboard? > > Chris > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Feb. 7, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes

by Bill Schwab

Gary, I suppose I could suggest replacing some of the button bars with more compact iconic toolbars. Things like debugging over, into, etc. lend themselves well to that. The world menu will not make much sense if we ever get one window per shell. The biggest concern I have right now is speed. I'm not saying Pharo is too slow; I'm simply admitting that I do not know whether it is fast enough for some of the things I want to do. That leads to a question I should ask: Gwenael, without asking you to do anything just yet, is your updated parser in a state that it can installed and used? How hard is that to do? Would it be easy for you? Are you able and willing to make it available? What would I have to give up? It's a long story, but tripping over underscores is a problem for a couple of things I would like to do. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 273-6785 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com 02/07/09 11:19 AM >>> Really no other gripes? Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Chambers" <gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com> To: <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes On Vista with each theme I get: Watery2 5200 SoftSqueak 4651.6 StandardSqueak 4082.8 Vistary 5378.4 Watery 4979.6 StandardSqueak compares relatively favourably with Squeak 3.9. Nicer looking widgets do take more cpu of course ;-) With FreeType and Arial fonts: Watery2 6621.6 SoftSqueak 5871.4 StandardSqueak 5391.0 Vistary 7081.8 Watery 6521.8 Goes to show that you can't get something for nothing! Regards, Gary. ----- Original Message ----- From: "StÃ©phane Ducasse" <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> To: <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes > on mac os 9.0 :) > > Stef > > On Jan 31, 2009, at 1:29 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > >> 2009/1/31 Michael Rueger <m.rueger(a)acm.org>: >>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 9:26 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On my machine I get: >>>> >>>> Squeak 3.9: 3800ms >>>> Pharo #084: 2950ms >>>> Pharo #213: 5200ms >>>> >>>> #084 is before Polymorph was added and #213 is the most recent >>>> version. >>>> >>>> BTW, with OB: 8590ms. >>> >>> ouch... >>> >>> any obvious hotspots? >>> >> >> i think its not very fair to compare OB with old browser. You need >> more cycles to draw icons for methods, show categories in tree, not in >> a simple list etc. etc. >> If you want a real 'ouch' then compare it with MVC browser :) >> >>> Michael >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Feb. 7, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes

by Gary Chambers

Really no other gripes? Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Chambers" <gazzaguru2(a)btinternet.com> To: <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes On Vista with each theme I get: Watery2 5200 SoftSqueak 4651.6 StandardSqueak 4082.8 Vistary 5378.4 Watery 4979.6 StandardSqueak compares relatively favourably with Squeak 3.9. Nicer looking widgets do take more cpu of course ;-) With FreeType and Arial fonts: Watery2 6621.6 SoftSqueak 5871.4 StandardSqueak 5391.0 Vistary 7081.8 Watery 6521.8 Goes to show that you can't get something for nothing! Regards, Gary. ----- Original Message ----- From: "StÃ©phane Ducasse" <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> To: <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Call for UI gripes > on mac os 9.0 :) > > Stef > > On Jan 31, 2009, at 1:29 AM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > >> 2009/1/31 Michael Rueger <m.rueger(a)acm.org>: >>> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 9:26 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On my machine I get: >>>> >>>> Squeak 3.9: 3800ms >>>> Pharo #084: 2950ms >>>> Pharo #213: 5200ms >>>> >>>> #084 is before Polymorph was added and #213 is the most recent >>>> version. >>>> >>>> BTW, with OB: 8590ms. >>> >>> ouch... >>> >>> any obvious hotspots? >>> >> >> i think its not very fair to compare OB with old browser. You need >> more cycles to draw icons for methods, show categories in tree, not in >> a simple list etc. etc. >> If you want a real 'ouch' then compare it with MVC browser :) >> >>> Michael >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Feb. 7, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Monticello Timeline

by HernÃ¡n Morales Durand

Thanks Keith, I'm aware of your good work for the community. I didn't knew about that version and it seems to be quite stable. To summarize, the steps required to get a robust Monticello are: - Install the package Installer from http://www.squeaksource.com/Installer.html - And then doIt of the script in http://installer.pbwiki.com/LevelPlayingField-Monticello15 Cheers. HernÃ¡n 2009/2/7 Keith Hodges <keith_hodges(a)yahoo.co.uk> > You are not looking at the latest in www.squeaksource.com/mc it is the > package Monticello.impl. I already did all of this work in MC1.5 I > merged all of the forks that I could find. > > Please please please, dont dig up this. Just pick up MC1.5 and fix > anything that is broken. > > If the community continuously ignores the unpaid work people put in, > then they are going to learn a certain amount of negative reinfircement, > and be reticent to contribute further. > > Keith > >

Feb. 7, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] It's time for Squeak 4.0!

by Matthew Fulmer

On Sat, Feb 07, 2009 at 10:18:27AM +0100, St?phane Ducasse wrote: > Matthew > > where did you get the list of people that signed the MIT agreement? I > asked several times > but never got any answer. The list of contributors is part of Yoshiki's MethodAuthorship package: http://www.squeaksource.com/MethodAuthorship.html See the methods in the #data category of class Authorship I attached a log of an irc conversation with Yoshiki that may clear a few things up. It is also included with http://ftp.squeak.org/4.0alpha/squeak4.0-relicensingTools.zip -- Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/

Feb. 7, 2009