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Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

by Frank-B

Andreas, you are most likely right, although I do not really qualify as a judge, because I have little experience with the code on these platforms. But this has always been my impression, too. On the other hand, I am sure that the average Smalltakers stands way above the average developer when it comes to intelligence, programming skills and a lot of other factors. This is another reason why so many developers don't really understand "o-o" and are mostly unable to abstract things and, as a consequence from this, are not really able to use Smalltalk "properly". On the negative side is that most Smalltalkers work rather as "lonesome wolfs" and, at best, in very small teams and very very few work on standard products meant to be used by a large or very large number of end-users. That has mostly been my goal over the last 20 years. Still, all of this is no excuse for violating the very first developer's commandment: "Thou shall document thy code" Mit herzlichen GrÃ¼Ãen Frank -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686p4960711.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

by Andreas Wacknitz

Am 13.08.17 um 18:18 schrieb Frank-B: > Dear Tudor, > > I had expected such answers and I feel sorry to have to waste time on > defending the unwanted truth. > > You should have noticed how positively I see these activities and how much I > regret that my experiences were mostly negative. I would like to have > contributed and I certainly would have a lot in my framework but I don't > feel that this would be a fruitful ground here. I had given the reasons. > > My impression always was that the majority of contributers here are very > eager to create a real-word system that could be used for real applications. > This is why I freely and openly wrote about my impressions and experiences. > > If somebody says: "I program for fun and contribute for my ego" - that's > absolutely fine with me. But my impressions did NOT reflect such an > attitude. > > > Tudor Girba-2 wrote >> Hi Frank, >> >> Please be more polite with people that contribute open software that you >> have the option of actually playing with at no cost (other than time). > The truth is never unpolite - but in these days of Yankee originated > censorship that is euphemistically called "political correctness" most > people also in Europe are infected by this madness, so that many people do > not want to hear any bitter facts any more. > > >> Saying that the people from around here lack skills is an unnecessary > No that is a lie, I did not write that "they lack skills" nor anything > alike. > > I made clear that most do not document and that many often do not really > finish their projects. That has nothing do with skills, rather with > finishing a task properly or only by 85% or 90% - and that has unfortunately > often been my impression in the Squeak/Pharo arena. IMO that is not special to the Squeak/Pharo community. When you look at sourceforge or github you will find a lot abandoned, incomplete or undocumented projects. Maybe it's more prominent here because this community is orders of magnitude smaller than others. When you google for a solution you typically find a bunch of hits for mainstream languages. So you can choose between several alternatives and thus have a high possibility to find something working for you, especially when big companies like Google are involved. Regards Andreas

Aug. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try - addendum to the error

by Frank-B

Tudor, perhaps I was a little imprecise, therefore this clarification: I just opened the PhariJsESUG19-08-22 image with the PharosJS code included (and I did NOT load any code). I did nothing to it except the mentioned "do it", which includes the creation of two sub-dirs. As one can see from the screenshots, the Pharo window looks just the same as it is in the PharoJS image. Greetings Frank -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686p4960707.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

by Frank-B

Dear Tudor, I had expected such answers and I feel sorry to have to waste time on defending the unwanted truth. You should have noticed how positively I see these activities and how much I regret that my experiences were mostly negative. I would like to have contributed and I certainly would have a lot in my framework but I don't feel that this would be a fruitful ground here. I had given the reasons. My impression always was that the majority of contributers here are very eager to create a real-word system that could be used for real applications. This is why I freely and openly wrote about my impressions and experiences. If somebody says: "I program for fun and contribute for my ego" - that's absolutely fine with me. But my impressions did NOT reflect such an attitude. Tudor Girba-2 wrote > Hi Frank, > > Please be more polite with people that contribute open software that you > have the option of actually playing with at no cost (other than time). The truth is never unpolite - but in these days of Yankee originated censorship that is euphemistically called "political correctness" most people also in Europe are infected by this madness, so that many people do not want to hear any bitter facts any more. > Saying that the people from around here lack skills is an unnecessary No that is a lie, I did not write that "they lack skills" nor anything alike. I made clear that most do not document and that many often do not really finish their projects. That has nothing do with skills, rather with finishing a task properly or only by 85% or 90% - and that has unfortunately often been my impression in the Squeak/Pharo arena. > remark and I am sure you can write more positive messages. I will and I always do but only when justified. > Beside creating a nicer atmosphere, being polite also pays off in the long > term as you tend to get better reaction and support from people. Well, you really don't need to tell me. I have managed large projects with up to 30 developers so I really know how to motivate people and how to lead. Oh, all of my projects became products and most of them in time. But still and in total contrast to the general US attitude (see the current scandal at Google), I will always stick to the truth and I know that 95% of all people, whose boss I was, preferred this attitude. > Back to the original subject, PharoJS is an external project that is > kindly developed by people that want to explore a path that you actually > seem eager to try. I would suggest restarting the conversation with > describing the exact steps you undertook and explaining where the error is > (The screenshots you send do not seem to show any error) and ask for > guidelines. Very simple and I wrote this very clearly: I loaded the code and tried to "do it" the code in the Playground window. There was nothing more done and therefore there are no steps to explain. > Now, is documentation an issue in general. Of course, it is. And if you > care about it, we would very much welcome a contribution from you in that > area, or any other area you choose to. That's rediculous! You ask somebody else to document already written code. Pardon, but that's an extremely bad rethorical joke! Documentation and comments must be written BEFORE any code is written and must be ADJUSTED when the code is changed and finally when it seems to be finished - from the developer's point of view. If somebody seriously asks me - as an external - to document and comment already finished and totally undocumented code of somebody I do not even know, all I can think of is this old saying: "Oh Lord, forgive them as they do not know what they are speaking about". Hopefully, you don't mean this seriously, do you? BTW: If somebody uses the word "issue" where actually "problem" or "fault" or "mistake" would be correct, I see a sign of PC and successful brainwash. Missing documentation and IN-CODE comments are never an "issue" but always a "problem" and a always a great "mistake". -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686p4960706.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 13, 2017

Path * '' vs. Path workingDirectory

by Alistair Grant

Hi All, Is there any practical difference between (Path * '') and (Path workingDirectory)? Their internal representation is different: - (Path * '') has one empty segment - Path workingDirectory has no segments But as far as I can tell they are otherwise the same: | fs frEmpty frWD | fs := FileSystem disk. frEmpty := FileReference fileSystem: fs path: (Path * ''). frWD := FileReference fileSystem: fs path: Path workingDirectory. String streamContents: [ :stream | stream << 'frEmpty: '; << frEmpty printString; cr; << 'frWD: '; << frWD printString; cr; << '= : '; << (frEmpty absolutePath = frWD absolutePath) printString; cr. ] 'frEmpty: "File @ " frWD: "File @ ." = : true ' Cheers, Alistair

Aug. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

by Tudor Girba

Hi Frank, Please be more polite with people that contribute open software that you have the option of actually playing with at no cost (other than time). Saying that the people from around here lack skills is an unnecessary remark and I am sure you can write more positive messages. Beside creating a nicer atmosphere, being polite also pays off in the long term as you tend to get better reaction and support from people. Back to the original subject, PharoJS is an external project that is kindly developed by people that want to explore a path that you actually seem eager to try. I would suggest restarting the conversation with describing the exact steps you undertook and explaining where the error is (The screenshots you send do not seem to show any error) and ask for guidelines. Now, is documentation an issue in general. Of course, it is. And if you care about it, we would very much welcome a contribution from you in that area, or any other area you choose to. Cheers, Doru > On Aug 13, 2017, at 4:46 PM, Frank-B <frank.berger.software(a)web.de> wrote: > > As recommended here: > http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-td4960519.… > by @Serge, I loaded the code and tried to run it. > > But, I almost tend to say "as usual", *it fails at first try*! > > I "did" the code in the Playground window but nothing happens, no code is > written into the selected directories. When I do "inspect it", I get a > window (see screenshots), which does not really tell me either, what has > happened (due to my lack of Pharo knowledge). > > Despite my over 20 years of full-time Smalltalk development, I have NOT any > experience with either Squeak nor Pharo and most of my attempts to use them > were very frustrating. > > Also, I do not feel like trying around, if and because: > - even the very first test fails immediately > - there is no meaningful documentation available > - the classes I looked at were all undocumented (for me, a 100% no-go, never > ever acceptable) > > And then, of course, also the test cases fail, because there is nothing in > the diretories, where some earlier output was expected. > > Pardon, but professionality and confidence causing systems look very > different too me. I am writing this with sadness, because it is certainly > not my first such experience in the Squeak/Pharo area. > > There are some very bright people engaged here, but for some reason many of > them lack some important aspects to be called professionals. > > Just FYI: My very first application software, an "ERP" system, which I > started developing more than 35 years ago in horrible Basic, is still > feeding a company (not mine) with >25 people as their sole product and has a > couple of hundred business users. Some of my former staff is still working > there and they said, this is only possible because I did force them > "dictatorially" to document / comment every single line of code. In the > beginning, they hated me for that. Today they are very thanksful. > > P.S. I DO have a very fast horse, because this is what one needs when > telling the truth - in these days when truth is the worst "hate crime". > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com âSoftware has no shape. Actually, it has no one shape. It has many."

Aug. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try - missing screenshots

by Frank-B

Pardon, here they are. 170813-PharoJS-Err01.PNG <http://forum.world.st/file/n4960694/170813-PharoJS-Err01.PNG> 170813-PharoJS-Err02.PNG <http://forum.world.st/file/n4960694/170813-PharoJS-Err02.PNG> -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686p4960694.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS fails at first attempt

by Frank-B

@Serge and @those who developed PharoJS My first attempt to play with PharoJS failed. See here: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686.html Actually, this is what I had expected, because it resembles (unfortunately) my general experience with Squeak/Pharo from several occaisional attempts to use them. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 13, 2017

PharoJS crashes at first try

by Frank-B

As recommended here: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-td4960519.… by @Serge, I loaded the code and tried to run it. But, I almost tend to say "as usual", *it fails at first try*! I "did" the code in the Playground window but nothing happens, no code is written into the selected directories. When I do "inspect it", I get a window (see screenshots), which does not really tell me either, what has happened (due to my lack of Pharo knowledge). Despite my over 20 years of full-time Smalltalk development, I have NOT any experience with either Squeak nor Pharo and most of my attempts to use them were very frustrating. Also, I do not feel like trying around, if and because: - even the very first test fails immediately - there is no meaningful documentation available - the classes I looked at were all undocumented (for me, a 100% no-go, never ever acceptable) And then, of course, also the test cases fail, because there is nothing in the diretories, where some earlier output was expected. Pardon, but professionality and confidence causing systems look very different too me. I am writing this with sadness, because it is certainly not my first such experience in the Squeak/Pharo area. There are some very bright people engaged here, but for some reason many of them lack some important aspects to be called professionals. Just FYI: My very first application software, an "ERP" system, which I started developing more than 35 years ago in horrible Basic, is still feeding a company (not mine) with >25 people as their sole product and has a couple of hundred business users. Some of my former staff is still working there and they said, this is only possible because I did force them "dictatorially" to document / comment every single line of code. In the beginning, they hated me for that. Today they are very thanksful. P.S. I DO have a very fast horse, because this is what one needs when telling the truth - in these days when truth is the worst "hate crime". -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 13, 2017

PharoDays17: Bloc video - displaying metrics while prototyping

by Ben Coman

I was watching PharoDays17: Bloc video and @53:15 there was a question due to offset being negative... https://youtu.be/ikzkzfz0zAA?t=3197 ...and I had a random idea (so not necessarily practical) that since we have "metrics" as an object, I wonder if a built in feature to draw these metrics on the canvas - kind of a developer guidelines to be used temporarily during prototyping. Something like... metrics red drawOn: aCanvas which would be commented out of production code. Now what I'm really interested in is a zoomable image window, preferably using the mouse wheel. Any chance such example if available somewhere? cheers -ben

Aug. 13, 2017