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[Pharo 7] Build 34 - Issue 20301 loading of BaselineOfIDE must not resolve conflicts automatically

by Guillermo Polito

Build 34 https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/close/20301/loading-of-BaselineOfIDE-must… https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/190#pullrequestreview-56020044 -- Guille Polito Research Engineer French National Center for Scientific Research - *http://www.cnrs.fr* <http://www.cnrs.fr> *Web:* *http://guillep.github.io* <http://guillep.github.io> *Phone: *+33 06 52 70 66 13

Aug. 14, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

by henry

Nice. - HH > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript? > Local Time: August 14, 2017 2:38 AM > UTC Time: August 14, 2017 6:38 AM > From: frank.berger.software(a)web.de > To: pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org > > Hello Craig, > > upfront thank you very much for being willing to respond to my problems and > questions. > > As I tried to make clear in this and the neighboring thread: > http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-td4960686.html > I am looking for a serious "professional" solution to combine server-side > Smalltalk with client-side JavaScript, which is sourced in the same > Smalltalk image that runs the server. This is an essntial part of all of my > product plans and ideas. I am only in software for mass-markets (Fremium > principle) and not in customer-centric projects like most Smalltalkers. > > Another important background: My quite large Smalltalk famework contains the > greatest parts of the data that defines the UI and, second, I have very > specific plans for the UI in the long run, because the UI decides mostly > about the success or failure of an application software. > > There are currently three "candidates": ST2JS, Orca and PharoJS. > > As you can read in the second thread (see link above) the PharoJS image > failed at first attempt. Therefore my question, are you aware of a working > image? > > Second, is there anywhere some detailed information available about what > PharoJS does and, at least basically, how it"s done? (Side-remark: This part > is excellent for Orca, I recommend the Orca papers. Brilliant concepts!) > > Third, are you aware of real-life solutions based on PharoJS? > > I am currently still at the very beginning of my investigations and my very > first impression of PharoJS was the worst possible: The trial image failed > at first attempt and, even worse, neither general documentation nor > code/class comments were available. Both are a no-go for me, being a > "documentation fanatic" out of very long experience in software development. > > Thank you in advance for a short comment. > > Frank > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 14, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

by Frank-B

Hello Craig, upfront thank you very much for being willing to respond to my problems and questions. As I tried to make clear in this and the neighboring thread: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-td4960686.html I am looking for a serious "professional" solution to combine server-side Smalltalk with client-side JavaScript, which is sourced in the same Smalltalk image that runs the server. This is an essntial part of all of my product plans and ideas. I am only in software for mass-markets (Fremium principle) and not in customer-centric projects like most Smalltalkers. Another important background: My quite large Smalltalk famework contains the greatest parts of the data that defines the UI and, second, I have very specific plans for the UI in the long run, because the UI decides mostly about the success or failure of an application software. There are currently three "candidates": ST2JS, Orca and PharoJS. As you can read in the second thread (see link above) the PharoJS image failed at first attempt. Therefore my question, are you aware of a working image? Second, is there anywhere some detailed information available about what PharoJS does and, at least basically, how it's done? (Side-remark: This part is excellent for Orca, I recommend the Orca papers. Brilliant concepts!) Third, are you aware of real-life solutions based on PharoJS? I am currently still at the very beginning of my investigations and my very first impression of PharoJS was the worst possible: The trial image failed at first attempt and, even worse, neither general documentation nor code/class comments were available. Both are a no-go for me, being a "documentation fanatic" out of very long experience in software development. Thank you in advance for a short comment. Frank -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 14, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

by henry

Nice. - HH > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript? > Local Time: August 14, 2017 2:09 AM > UTC Time: August 14, 2017 6:09 AM > From: craig(a)blackpagedigital.com > To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> > > Hi-- > > Eliot writes to Frank: > >> Craig Latta has done some strong work integrating Squeak and Pharo >> with the browser using a bridge derived from Bert Freudenberg"s >> SqueakJS. Craig"s work allows one to use Pharo running on the >> standard Cog VM, client side, to render to the browser, receive >> events from the browser, and manipulate the DOM. >> >> You could contact him to find out if his work is relevant to you. He >> isn"t comfortable discussing it on the Pharo lists himself. > > Oh, I"m plenty comfortable discussing it on the Pharo lists. :) I > was referring to different context in which someone asked me a question > here, and I got attacked for responding to it. > > Anyway, yes: livecoded Pharo in web browsers is working. > > thanks! > > -C > > -- > Craig Latta > Black Page Digital > Amsterdam :: San Francisco > craig(a)blackpagedigital.com > voice through 2017-09-12: > + 1 510 833 5799 (SMS ok) > +31 20 893 2796 (no SMS)

Aug. 14, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

by Craig Latta

Hi-- Eliot writes to Frank: > Craig Latta has done some strong work integrating Squeak and Pharo > with the browser using a bridge derived from Bert Freudenberg's > SqueakJS. Craig's work allows one to use Pharo running on the > standard Cog VM, client side, to render to the browser, receive > events from the browser, and manipulate the DOM. > > You could contact him to find out if his work is relevant to you. He > isn't comfortable discussing it on the Pharo lists himself. Oh, I'm plenty comfortable discussing it on the Pharo lists. :) I was referring to different context in which someone asked me a question here, and I got attacked for responding to it. Anyway, yes: livecoded Pharo in web browsers is working. thanks! -C -- Craig Latta Black Page Digital Amsterdam :: San Francisco craig(a)blackpagedigital.com voice through 2017-09-12: + 1 510 833 5799 (SMS ok) +31 20 893 2796 (no SMS)

Aug. 14, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

by henry

Nice. - HH > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript? > Local Time: August 13, 2017 10:48 PM > UTC Time: August 14, 2017 2:48 AM > From: eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com > To: Frank Berger Software <frank.berger.software(a)web.de>, Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> > > Hi Frank, > > On Aug 12, 2017, at 1:24 PM, Frank Berger Software <frank.berger.software(a)web.de> wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> the available documentation on Orca looks brilliant and the source, Hasso-Plattner-Institut in Potsdam, has an excellent reputation. It looks all very professional. >> >> I am therefore most suprised that I cannot find any tracks of usage of Orca, neither here, nor elsewhere on the net, and not even any serious discussions. >> >> Does anybody here have practical experience with Orca? >> Critics? >> Recommendations? > > Craig Latta has done some strong work integrating Squeak and Pharo with the browser using a bridge derived from Bert Freudenberg's SqueakJS. Craig's work allows one to use Pharo running on the standard Cog VM, client side, to render to the browser, receive events from the browser, and manipulate the DOM. > > You could contact him to find out if his work is relevant to you. He isn't comfortable discussing it on the Pharo lists himself. > >> My goal is to use it for a real-life business application rather than the ST2JS, which would be the second alternative. All of my server software is written in Smalltalk anyway. >> >> Thank you in advance for any comment. >> >> Frank

Aug. 14, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

by Eliot Miranda

Hi Frank, > On Aug 12, 2017, at 1:24 PM, Frank Berger Software <frank.berger.software(a)web.de> wrote: > > Hello, > > the available documentation on Orca looks brilliant and the source, Hasso-Plattner-Institut in Potsdam, has an excellent reputation. It looks all very professional. > > I am therefore most suprised that I cannot find any tracks of usage of Orca, neither here, nor elsewhere on the net, and not even any serious discussions. > > Does anybody here have practical experience with Orca? > Critics? > Recommendations? Craig Latta has done some strong work integrating Squeak and Pharo with the browser using a bridge derived from Bert Freudenberg's SqueakJS. Craig's work allows one to use Pharo running on the standard Cog VM, client side, to render to the browser, receive events from the browser, and manipulate the DOM. You could contact him to find out if his work is relevant to you. He isn't comfortable discussing it on the Pharo lists himself. > > My goal is to use it for a real-life business application rather than the ST2JS, which would be the second alternative. All of my server software is written in Smalltalk anyway. > > Thank you in advance for any comment. > > Frank

Aug. 14, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

by Frank-B

Stephan > Perhaps you might want to explain to me the return on investment of the > Orca documentation then? Zero users, zero return on investment. What are you talking about?! a) The external documentation of Orca is brilliant. I have not yet had time to look into the internal comments. So your statement us wrong in this respect. b) I have no clue how many users Orca has. Only politicians and journalists are accepted to talk about things that they haven't got any clue of. I am neither of both. c) This is an university. Their purpose in life is to teach - and really also to research, but that has mostly been forgotten. d) The unique, wise and old German language, that we both speak, has a unqiue word for it: "Wissenschaft" but they mostly do neiher of both: no or little "Wissen" (knowledge) and no "schafft" (create). It seems to me that Orca is a great and rare exception to thus rule. read danisch.de to learn more. > I feel annoyed if you talk in absolutes like that, because I know that > there are lots of situations where creating documentation is a waste of > effort. a) If someone "feels annoyed" by statements and experiences of somebody else, this is only and exclusively the problem of the person who claims to "feel annoyed" - and in most cases a replacement for missing arguments and, even far worse, an attempt to suppress the freedom of speech. Why don't you ask your psychiatrist for help (yes, that was nasty, but it fitted in)? b) To every rule, there may be some exception. Here, they are not worth a discussion, in my opinion. > And I have also been bitten by lack of documentation. So you should rather agree wtih me! Why don't you? > And I have even been in a situation where both happened at the same time, > where a lot of effort was put in creating the wrong kind of documentation. > Oh, and I even wrote a bit of documentation myself. Never heard of the 80:20 rule? > even wrote a bit of documentation myself Great! My congratulations. It's hard to suppress the irony in my brain! > Investing means making decisions. Fully documented non-working code has no > value. Working code that no-one can use neither. Perhaps you ask for the cause(s)? Lots of people can't distinguish between cause and consequences. Perhaps this was the case when doc was missing? I don't know the cases you experienced. And I don't know any similar cases from my past, because ALL that was developed under my leadership was extremely well documented. > Your current communication is manipulative: you try to put yourself in a > dominant position by using absolutes, saying you feel sorry for me, and > bragging about your experience. That annoys me. If you want to convince > me, use arguments. 1) Fisherman's Friends has advertised over years at least in German (I do not know about other languages) with a phrase that has become a regular proverb in German: "Sind sie zu stark - bist du zu schwach" - Are they [here: my argument] too strong, you are too weak". So if you feel "manipulated" by someone stating his experiences from >35 years in software development, pardon, but that's only your personal problem, not mine! 2) The same applies to what you call "dominant". All the women that I have been affiliated closer with, did like and appreciated very much my very "care-full" (in the original sense of the word) but in situations, which require this, still somewhat dominant attitude. The word has always been my sword! 3) Finally: > If you want to convince me, use arguments. I have made my points very clear in this and the neighboring thread. Please just read it and try to understand (but I honestly doubt you want to). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication Of please don't come up with this lousy CIA organization that is full of lies, distortion of facts and suppression of truth (especially in history). This is the worst part of "LÃ¼genpresse" (even more the German version than the English one). I wrote here before: Truth is the new "hate crime". We are approching times of suppression that we Germans had twice before both by Socialists (same today) and behind both were the same people that want to silence us today again. I shall never surrender to this censorship and I detest eveybody who does! Habe die Ehre (if you know what Bavarians really mean with this salutation). Frank -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] eventual crashes pharo vm

by henry

Re-adding the list in case others were interested. - HH > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] eventual crashes pharo vm > Local Time: August 13, 2017 3:59 PM > UTC Time: August 13, 2017 7:59 PM > From: henry(a)callistohouse.club > To: Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> > > Stef, please see version 4 and the test in RefIdentityTest. > > - HH > >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] eventual crashes pharo vm >> Local Time: August 13, 2017 3:09 PM >> UTC Time: August 13, 2017 7:09 PM >> From: stepharo.self(a)gmail.com >> To: henry <henry(a)callistohouse.club> >> >> Does he do it systematically? >> I was checking if they extend blockcontext or others. >> Because it would be really nice. >> >> Stef >> >> On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 9:06 PM, henry <henry(a)callistohouse.club> wrote: >>> Sorry, loading works fine. It segfaults on Ubuntu 32-bit when I run the test >>> cases. >>> >>> - HH >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] eventual crashes pharo vm >>> Local Time: August 13, 2017 2:58 PM >>> UTC Time: August 13, 2017 6:58 PM >>> From: stepharo.self(a)gmail.com >>> To: henry <henry(a)callistohouse.club>, Pharo Development List >>> <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> >>> >>> We have some instability with the VM. Now can you tell us more how it "blew >>> up"? >>> I browsed the code and nothing special jump to my eyes. >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 2:08 PM, henry <henry(a)callistohouse.club> wrote: >>>> Hi all. I was testing with this eventual_test package and it blows up the >>>> pharo 6.1 vm. I"d welcome pointers >>>> >>>> http://www.squeaksource.com/TurquoiseTesting.html >>>> >>>> - HH >>>> >>>> >>> >>>

Aug. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

by Stephan Eggermont

Frank wrote: > I feel sorry for you if you really have not yet understood that proper, early and complete documentation and comments ARE ONLY an investment in the code, because they save time and efforts later on, which always pay back - mostly multiple times. Perhaps you might want to explain to me the return on investment of the Orca documentation then? Zero users, zero return on investment. I feel annoyed if you talk in absolutes like that, because I know that there are lots of situations where creating documentation is a waste of effort. And I have also been bitten by lack of documentation. And I have even been in a situation where both happened at the same time, where a lot of effort was put in creating the wrong kind of documentation. Oh, and I even wrote a bit of documentation myself. I have been thought many things at university, and there were many more things I had to learn in industry. And from open source projects, which have other things to teach. Investing means making decisions. Fully documented non-working code has no value. Working code that no-one can use neither. Your current communication is manipulative: you try to put yourself in a dominant position by using absolutes, saying you feel sorry for me, and bragging about your experience. That annoys me. If you want to convince me, use arguments. Stephan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication

Aug. 13, 2017