- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Add JSONSchemas to NeoJSON

by henry

Hello Esteban, Do you have Sven's email? I would like to discuss with him. I am currently considering combining ASN1 Modules, Fuel substitution and NeoJSON encoding. It is some work. Regards, - HH > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Add JSONSchemas to NeoJSON > Local Time: August 12, 2017 6:13 PM > UTC Time: August 12, 2017 10:13 PM > From: emaringolo(a)gmail.com > To: henry <henry(a)callistohouse.club>, Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> > > Sven is still the developer and maintaner of NeoJSON. > > It would be nice to have JSON Schemas in NeoJSON. You could abort the > read of a stream if the schema is invalid, without > having to build the whole object tree or to parse the whole stream. > > Regards! > > Esteban A. Maringolo > > 2017-08-12 17:04 GMT-03:00 henry <henry(a)callistohouse.club>: >> Is Sven still working on NeoJSON? I want to help expand it to use >> JSONSchemas. >> >> https://spacetelescope.github.io/understanding-json-schema/ >> >> I was looking at ASN1Module in Cryptography... >> >> - HH

Aug. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS fails at first attempt

by Frank-B

Merci! -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

by Frank-B

Stephane, all available information is in these two postings further up here: 13 Aug, 2017; 6:18pm versus the end 13 Aug, 2017; 6:38pm Frank -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686p4960742.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS fails at first attempt

by Stephane Ducasse

Hi frank You can contact noury at bouraqadi(a)gmail.com Serge does not work on PharoJS. Noury and Dave are. Stef On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Frank-B <frank.berger.software(a)web.de> wrote: > @Serge and @those who developed PharoJS > > My first attempt to play with PharoJS failed. > See here: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686.html > > Actually, this is what I had expected, because it resembles (unfortunately) > my general experience with Squeak/Pharo from several occaisional attempts to > use them. > > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

Aug. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

by Frank-B

Paul, > What would you be willing to pay for a professionally commented, > functioning, and documented PharoJS? Pardon, but don't you notice yourself how absurd this question is? If not - and I am afraid you don't, I tell you why: - there is NOWHERE any proper listing of what this mysterious piece of software does (the slides don't tell anything) - before giving a quote, I would have to anylyse the architectural approach - and compare it with alternatives - no info available (read the docs on Orca and you know hwat I mean) - and see who delivers under which conditions - and how well things are documented. Be assured, that I am well prepared to pay accordingly for a proper product that I can use, provided that I make the decition to delegate such essential work to some outsider. This technical subject is a CORE feature of almost all of my future products, plans, ideas etc and it is therefore vital to choose the best and most fitting system. If there is no alternative, I would - in case of need - develop it rather myself than depend on an (assumed for the moment) instable and amateurish library. Frank -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686p4960738.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

by Stephane Ducasse

Hi Noury is still developing PharoJS. If you want to be productive you should report - what you did. - what went wrong. I will forward to Noury such information because he is not reading Pharo mailing-list. Stef On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 4:46 PM, Frank-B <frank.berger.software(a)web.de> wrote: > As recommended here: > http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-td4960519.… > by @Serge, I loaded the code and tried to run it. > > But, I almost tend to say "as usual", *it fails at first try*! > > I "did" the code in the Playground window but nothing happens, no code is > written into the selected directories. When I do "inspect it", I get a > window (see screenshots), which does not really tell me either, what has > happened (due to my lack of Pharo knowledge). > > Despite my over 20 years of full-time Smalltalk development, I have NOT any > experience with either Squeak nor Pharo and most of my attempts to use them > were very frustrating. > > Also, I do not feel like trying around, if and because: > - even the very first test fails immediately > - there is no meaningful documentation available > - the classes I looked at were all undocumented (for me, a 100% no-go, never > ever acceptable) > > And then, of course, also the test cases fail, because there is nothing in > the diretories, where some earlier output was expected. > > Pardon, but professionality and confidence causing systems look very > different too me. I am writing this with sadness, because it is certainly > not my first such experience in the Squeak/Pharo area. > > There are some very bright people engaged here, but for some reason many of > them lack some important aspects to be called professionals. > > Just FYI: My very first application software, an "ERP" system, which I > started developing more than 35 years ago in horrible Basic, is still > feeding a company (not mine) with >25 people as their sole product and has a > couple of hundred business users. Some of my former staff is still working > there and they said, this is only possible because I did force them > "dictatorially" to document / comment every single line of code. In the > beginning, they hated me for that. Today they are very thanksful. > > P.S. I DO have a very fast horse, because this is what one needs when > telling the truth - in these days when truth is the worst "hate crime". > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

Aug. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

by Frank-B

Stephan, nice ironies! My compliments for this! I won't comment your attempts to justify the "I contribute for my ego", which is published as a great Smalltalk system. I have made my point clear! One comment on this: > Your first message in this thread is excellent. I would expect most intelligent people to be interested in and gratefiul for honest experience reports and comments on the work one has done, especially when they come from a very experience collegues who has been in this business twice as long or more as presumably the majority of people here. Bur, or course, you are free (but not welcome with me) to have your own very different opinion like the chicks often being wiser than the hen. So let me comment this foolishness: > Creating documentation takes time and effort. That needs to be balanced > against other priorities. I feel sorry for you if you really have not yet understood that proper, early and complete documentation and comments ARE ONLY an investment in the code, because they save time and efforts later on, which always pay back - mostly multiple times. With my >35 years in the software business and around 30 years in o-o technologies it'd be a waste of time to disucss such statements with somebody who unfortunately has not been tought such core wisdoms at university. But to me this comes as no surprise, as almost all "teachers" in the broader sense on universities - at least in Europa - have hardly any practical experience themselves - much like the surgeon who has never performed an appendix operation but wants to teach student how to do it. And, of course, the duration of being in a business as such is no guarantee for expertise but still it increases its probabilty enormously. After all, you are all trying to point away from the essential questions: Why is Pharo giving it's name for an obviously (at first glance) lousy implemetation where not even the prepared demo parts are runnig out of the box? Is that ok for you? And why are we discussing only "my impertinence" to point openly on bugs and missing documentation!?!? This is so absurd! Frank -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Anybody-using-Orca-Smalltalk-to-JavaScript-tp4960519p… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

by Tudor Girba

Hi, Truth has nothing to do with what our current exchange. In your email, you say "many of them [people] lack some important aspects to be called professionals.â You do not know these people, you do not know their motivations, constraints and goals. This means you are in no position to pass a judgement on these people, and as a consequence your remark can easily be regarded as offensive. Please also do not conflate this discussion in the political correctness debate. It only has to do with common sense. As I mentioned, PharoJS is an external project. It is not Pharo and its state has no relation to Pharo at present time. We are still very happy that it exists though and that it is still being developed. If you do not want to consider working on or with it is perfectly fine and I was not trying to imply otherwise. However, please do keep in mind that you are on the mailing list pertaining the development of Pharo. If you are interested in Pharo form a user perspective, please refer to the dedicated mailing list: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org. Concerning Pharo, we do actually place a significant focus on creating documentation on several fronts. For example, there are books written, and others currently being written. We also have projects on making the tools more welcoming for displaying documentation closer to the code. And we do very much welcome improvements to comments inside the image. There actually are several people that contributed mostly comments and documentation in the image and that was a significant contribution. So, given that it was possible in other cases, the suggestion to contribute documentation is not at all out of place. This being said, we do welcome you and I am happy you had a successful career. At the same time, I do happen to believe that form has a deep effect on people. We want this space to be kind, and I kindly ask you to respect that and to pay attention to the used language especially given that email is such a limited medium and that most people are not native English speakers. Cheers, Doru > On Aug 13, 2017, at 6:18 PM, Frank-B <frank.berger.software(a)web.de> wrote: > > Dear Tudor, > > I had expected such answers and I feel sorry to have to waste time on > defending the unwanted truth. > > You should have noticed how positively I see these activities and how much I > regret that my experiences were mostly negative. I would like to have > contributed and I certainly would have a lot in my framework but I don't > feel that this would be a fruitful ground here. I had given the reasons. > > My impression always was that the majority of contributers here are very > eager to create a real-word system that could be used for real applications. > This is why I freely and openly wrote about my impressions and experiences. > > If somebody says: "I program for fun and contribute for my ego" - that's > absolutely fine with me. But my impressions did NOT reflect such an > attitude. > > > Tudor Girba-2 wrote >> Hi Frank, >> >> Please be more polite with people that contribute open software that you >> have the option of actually playing with at no cost (other than time). > > The truth is never unpolite - but in these days of Yankee originated > censorship that is euphemistically called "political correctness" most > people also in Europe are infected by this madness, so that many people do > not want to hear any bitter facts any more. > > >> Saying that the people from around here lack skills is an unnecessary > > No that is a lie, I did not write that "they lack skills" nor anything > alike. > > I made clear that most do not document and that many often do not really > finish their projects. That has nothing do with skills, rather with > finishing a task properly or only by 85% or 90% - and that has unfortunately > often been my impression in the Squeak/Pharo arena. > > >> remark and I am sure you can write more positive messages. > > I will and I always do but only when justified. > > >> Beside creating a nicer atmosphere, being polite also pays off in the long >> term as you tend to get better reaction and support from people. > > Well, you really don't need to tell me. I have managed large projects with > up to 30 developers so I really know how to motivate people and how to lead. > Oh, all of my projects became products and most of them in time. But still > and in total contrast to the general US attitude (see the current scandal at > Google), I will always stick to the truth and I know that 95% of all people, > whose boss I was, preferred this attitude. > > >> Back to the original subject, PharoJS is an external project that is >> kindly developed by people that want to explore a path that you actually >> seem eager to try. I would suggest restarting the conversation with >> describing the exact steps you undertook and explaining where the error is >> (The screenshots you send do not seem to show any error) and ask for >> guidelines. > > Very simple and I wrote this very clearly: I loaded the code and tried to > "do it" the code in the Playground window. There was nothing more done and > therefore there are no steps to explain. > > >> Now, is documentation an issue in general. Of course, it is. And if you >> care about it, we would very much welcome a contribution from you in that >> area, or any other area you choose to. > > That's rediculous! You ask somebody else to document already written code. > Pardon, but that's an extremely bad rethorical joke! > > Documentation and comments must be written BEFORE any code is written and > must be ADJUSTED when the code is changed and finally when it seems to be > finished - from the developer's point of view. > > If somebody seriously asks me - as an external - to document and comment > already finished and totally undocumented code of somebody I do not even > know, all I can think of is this old saying: "Oh Lord, forgive them as they > do not know what they are speaking about". > > Hopefully, you don't mean this seriously, do you? > > BTW: If somebody uses the word "issue" where actually "problem" or "fault" > or "mistake" would be correct, I see a sign of PC and successful brainwash. > > Missing documentation and IN-CODE comments are never an "issue" but always a > "problem" and a always a great "mistake". > > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686p4960706.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Things happen when they happen, not when you talk about them happening."

Aug. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoJS crashes at first try

by Paul DeBruicker

Hi Frank, I'd guess you anticipated this astute comment as well: What would you be willing to pay for a professionally commented, functioning, and documented PharoJS? Maybe offer that amount to the projects devs and see if they are willing to develop the system you want to use. Its hard to eat on internet forum complaints alone. Good luck getting it sorted out Paul Frank-B wrote > Andreas, > > you are most likely right, although I do not really qualify as a judge, > because I have little experience with the code on these platforms. But > this has always been my impression, too. > > On the other hand, I am sure that the average Smalltakers stands way above > the average developer when it comes to intelligence, programming skills > and a lot of other factors. This is another reason why so many developers > don't really understand "o-o" and are mostly unable to abstract things > and, as a consequence from this, are not really able to use Smalltalk > "properly". > > On the negative side is that most Smalltalkers work rather as "lonesome > wolfs" and, at best, in very small teams and very very few work on > standard products meant to be used by a large or very large number of > end-users. That has mostly been my goal over the last 20 years. > > Still, all of this is no excuse for violating the very first developer's > commandment: "Thou shall document thy code" > > Mit herzlichen GrÃ¼Ãen > Frank -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJS-crashes-at-first-try-tp4960686p4960720.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Anybody using Orca Smalltalk to JavaScript?

by Stephan Eggermont

Hi Frank, It must be very frustrating to see so many possibly interesting projects that are so difficult to get started with, being it because of lack of development and migration to the latest versions, or because of lack of documentation. It is a feeling I, and no doubt a lot of other smalltalkers, share. Our open source community consist of people spending a lot of their time on Pharo. A few of them are paid to do so, some more make it their bachelor, master or PhD project, and for even more it is just a hobby or side project. They all have different objectives with their projects, and different constraints. To get good results with our community, effective communications is essential. That allows us to develop multiple projects in a way that creates synergy, and a coherent whole. I find a crucial element of effective communication is to build up a connection, so others are able to hear your message. Your first message in this thread is excellent. Telling people they are not professional, and do a bad job, without knowing about the context in which the code was produced, is unlikely to lead to effective communications. People who feel attacked are no longer open to your message, irrespective of the contents. Effective communications has also nothing to do with PC or 'truth', and especially not the absolute and blaming kind. Posing opinions as truths looks less than helpful to me. I find clearly separating facts, feelings, needs, and strategies to fulfill those needs more effective. Creating documentation takes time and effort. That needs to be balanced against other priorities. You might not like the priorities others set, but you are not paying (in money nor effort). Also, we can only start at the position we are now in, no matter how much we want to be somewhere else. This is open source, so please let us know where you want to contribute so we can help you getting started. Stephan

Aug. 13, 2017