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Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Keith, Call it Squeak or Pharo, I (and apparently many others here) want a clean Smalltalk. Kernel+packages is fine; I could also live with a well-factored big image from which I simply chop out things I do not need. If the system is good, I will adapt to the ways people chose to give it to me. You apparently want Squeak. We want things fixed and options embraced. Years on, those things are still off in the distance for Squeak. I doubt that would ever change without Pharo. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Keith Hodges Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:42 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > It strikes me (disagree if you feel the need) that Pharo can do all of the fun-goofy-crazy stuff that people want to protect (at cost) in Squeak. I forget who it was, but one Squeaker essentially said to me "don't break our toy." All I wanted was what Pharo is rapidly becoming: a robust system with good tools and themed feel. You want focus jumping all over - fine, just make it optional so my users don't have to live with it. Pharo is doing just that and more. > > This will really stir the pudding in some minds: I think the best thing that could happen is that Squeak 6.0 == Pharo 3.0 plus packages to do whatever Squeak needs that Where do you get this Squeak6.0 =Pharo3.0 + packages. The vision for moving squeak forward has been Squeak Small Kernel + Packages for several years now. If Squeak6.0 (kernel) + packges = Pharo3.0 + packages then I will be a happy person. The problem with it is that Pharo will have a Pharo package system, a Pharo SUinit, a Pharo Compiler, and a Pharo GUI, and none of the packages will work between squeak and pharo. Keith _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 4, 2009

[Pharo-project] What's the problem people? :)

by GÃ¶ran Krampe

Hi Pharaos (and Squeak-dev)! :) Alert to Pharaos: This is a cross post! (hehe) I just wanted to say (for whatever that is worth) that I like Pharo. And I like Squeak.org. And I like everyone doing stuff in/for/on Squeak/Pharo/Smalltalk/Huemul whatever. I have Pharo on my disk. I just started playing in it for a toy project involving RB AST, RoelTyper etc. But I do all Gjallar work on 3.10.2/LPF right now, it takes time moving a large project to a different baseline, so Gjallar will probably be on 3.10.2 for a while. But nothing prevents us from testing out Pharo later on - whatever works the best I say. Gjallar is also 95% ported to GS these days. I agree with Keith/Matthew that making good tools that can *span* different forks/communities *must* be a good thing for us all to have. All tools don't need to be spanning, but it doesn't hurt if *some* are - right? I *also* agree with Pharo people that hey, Pharo is a fork - we/you can do whatever we/you like! And that is good - it's the strength of Pharo. If Pharo diverts too much in "base stuff" it might turn into a weakness - but we just don't know these things, it is still to be seen. It is all about balance, benefits, etc. And we don't need to get angry with each other do we? :) Trust me, it just burns your energy! I have code that seems to be doing fine in Pharo - SocketStream comes to mind. I know Pharo seem to be more inclined to use Universes than SM - fine with me, no problem. I hope to move SM forward in some way, and I hope it can still be loaded/used from within Pharo - even if it gets thrown out soon (I think I read something about that). I also intend to use both Pharo, Squeak or whatever works best for my different tasks. And finally I hope to revive DeltaStreams and make that work in Pharo as well as most other Squeak flavors. We are all Squeakers, right? :) regards, GÃ¶ran PS. I am not sure why I am so damn cheerful, perhaps it is the SURGE I seem to feel in the Squeak community - so many things going on all over the place... ;)

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [Vm-dev] newDelta >0 failed in sqUnixMemory -- Was Re: Incompatibility between Pharo and Seasidehosting

by Bruce O'Neel

Hi, There seem to be three solutions (in best to worst order). - someone (Ian maybe) needs to rebuild the Unix VM with a VMMaker from within the last two years. Apparently the bug has been fixed for a while. - pass a fixed memory size to the VM -memory 200m or so does the trick. - patch the existing C source code. cheers bruce On Tue, Mar 03, 2009 at 09:19:13AM +0100, Tudor Girba wrote: > Hi, > > I am not sure I got the summary of the discussion related to the > problem of deploying a Pharo-based image to seasidehosting. Is there > any conclusion? > > Cheers, > Doru > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Problem solving efficiency grows with the abstractness level of > problem understanding." > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Keith, I respectfully disagree on one fundamental point: the processes fed into a black hole. Ideas were ignored, well intentioned people were ridiculed. What Stef et al. have done (beyond a lot of great work) is fix that problem. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Keith Hodges Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:37 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you > I think Matthiew and Keith... and some others, really pushed the idea > to live with forks (instead of building another image)... After a > year or two, people start to go in their way... + people have maybe > more time to collaborate. IMO, the arrival of Igor and Eliot is also a > big win...0 > But note Igor and Elliot are folks thinking in an inclusive manner. Neither are they simply squeak/pharo focused. > I think 2008 was a good smalltalk year... Pharo is a good choice > though because you offer something to developer that was simply absent > before and moreover, "people" were really reluctant to go in that > direction for squeak hence all your problems... So still, even if > Actually no, I did not see any reluctance to go in that direction at all. In fact the tabled proposals for 3.11+ had identical goals to pharo's but a different way of getting there. The Pharo team required that they have full control, whereas the 3.11 team assumes that they dont have control, they are facilitating through tools. > there's a resurgence of squeak development collaboration, Pharo has > its place for the everyday developer (even people like me who like to > do simple stuffs ... but in smalltalk). I see Pharo as the Smalltalk > oriented to developers, where you experience good development > practices (and invent new one) whereas squeak is more global, touch at > everything, experiment in all directions... > > Pharo decision process will be anyway quicker than squeak (even with > Andreas proposal)... You can't imagine how much a little change like > the menu shrinking is important to me (and looked impossible to ask > for in squeak...). Why? We have had a mechanism for proposing and loading such changes for 3 years. If you wanted to try new menus you could submit the changeset to mantis and make that available for everyone. You didnt have to ask anyone. I would happily use such a contribution. What we have been lacking is the build infrastructure for testing and harnessing such contributions. This was on the road map for 3.10 but never happened, because the 3.10 team continued to be focussed on the image as a deliverable rather than the process. Keith _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Seaside working on Pharo

by Damien Cassou

On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Bruce O'Neel <squeak(a)pckswarms.ch> wrote: > If you want to patch your linux VM and rebuild from source I can > tell you where to fix it. Why not, but I would prefer to see the bug fixed in svn. Do you know why it isn't there already? -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Seaside working on Pharo

by Bruce O'Neel

Hi, If you want to patch your linux VM and rebuild from source I can tell you where to fix it. cheers bruce On Mon, Mar 02, 2009 at 11:41:47AM +0100, Damien Cassou wrote: > Hi, > > I've just written a small Installer-based script to install Seaside2.8 > into Pharo image. Load the latest ScriptLoader from PharoInbox and do: > > ScriptLoader loadSeaside > > Unfortunately, this crashed my unix VM 2 times with the following message: > > squeak: /home/piumarta/squeak/platforms/unix/vm/sqUnixMemory.c:172: > uxGrowMemoryBy: Assertion `newDelta >= 0' failed. > Aborted > > > Sometimes it works though. To make it work more reliably, I pass > '-memory 512m' to the VM. > > -- > Damien Cassou > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Ramon, +10 as we say. However, I welcome the toys on top of the tool, as long as they go away if I choose not to play. I would like to think that a "live and let code" attitude is what distinguishes us from "them." Bill ________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Ramon Leon Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:20 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you > I forget who it was, but one Squeaker essentially said to me "don't break our toy. That's the attitude that infuriates me about Squeak, "toy" name, "toy" UI, and "toy" attitude. I'm so glad Pharo was started so I can work with something that isn't a "toy" but a real professional "tool" who's name can be spoken aloud. Ramon Leon http://onsmalltalk.com

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: about adding chasing pointers and friends in the debug menu

by Alexandre Bergel

>>>> I'd prefer a shortcut for "debug it" >>>> >>> yes! I always wondered why there is none... >>> only question is, which key? >>> >> >> which keys are free (if any)? >> > cmd-shift D would be the logical thing. Adrian came to the same conclusion. Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

CÃ©drick, Look at the bright side: people let you use Smalltalk :) IMHO, you might not need to worry too much about deployment. I know much more about that in Dolphin than Squeak/Pharo, but I think the details of it get far too much attention in general. What OS? In Windows and Linux/Gnome, I just create shortcuts that load an image for Pharo, and it works fine. Just name the VM and the image to load, and user sees it as any other piece of software. The trick in Pharo is to save an image in the state appropriate for the end user. There are other far better qualified to help you over that bump. Happy Smalltalking! Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of CÃ©drick BÃ©ler Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:19 AM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] A point a.k.a excuse to you 2009/3/4 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > tx perl hacker :) > > Stef actually, I did only 2 weeks of Perl and I'm back to Pharo since... :) Thanks to smalltalk, the very good point is I've nearly finished something that is due in june !!! (I mean minus the 20% that takes most of the time plus all the fancy stuffs I'd like to do around diagrams). I think I did the main skeleton in a week :) (it a planer prototype) whereas my supervisor asked me for a class diagram... I just did in st and used OB to draw the diagram... and two days later it was nearly working :) I think that's just impossible in another language (with the same developer ;) ). 2 bad points though... - people let me do it but nobody even look at the code :( - don't know yet how to deploy ... Here I'd really like a micro image... I might do with Pavel image or even think to use gnu-st... Last solution is to port in perl mainly for people to maintain it if I leave. Still don't know but I'll come back with question when necessary... See you, CÃ©drick _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 4, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: about adding chasing pointers and friends in the debug menu

by Alexandre Bergel

>>>> I'd prefer a shortcut for "debug it" > > I also suggest to change "alt shift d". I think it's the best > shortcut. I've never used the old behavior, and never seen anybody > else using it. Would be great yes. Anyone working on it? I could do it if nobody is working on it. Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

March 4, 2009