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Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN][Dev-Images] May 2009 versions

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

That was indeed the problem - I am playing catchup and ran across that thread which suddenly sounded familiar. One thing I do not like is that debugger background color is again pretty much flat white (visary). The buttons really should float over a different background color, ohterwise, they appear to be suspended in the text and the scrolling state is non-obvious. Thanks! Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Henrik Sperre Johansen Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 12:01 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN][Dev-Images] May 2009 versions If you're talking about dragging a window, this is fixed in 304, so either update (dev image is 303), or switch off fastDragWindowsForMorphic preference. Cheers, Henry On 14.05.2009 18:18, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Damien, > > I fired it up, added a workspace and started to drage same - complete hang. That's on linux. > > Any other takers? > > Bill > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

May 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] accessors

by Vassili Bykov

On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:02 AM, Marcus Denker <denker(a)acm.org> wrote: > > In general I am a fan of self-style way of not destinguishing between > sends and instvar access. > (like NewSpeak, Gilad has some nice blog-posts on why you want message > sends for everything). It's Newspeak, not NewSpeak. Unless you program in SmallTalk. :) The difference in Newspeak is method accessibility control (at least in principle if not in the current implementation), so representation independence doesn't come bundled with exposure of private data. --Vassili

May 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] accessors

by Marcus Denker

On 14.05.2009, at 12:55, Steve Wirts wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Would it be inappropriate to request that an effort be made at some > point to try to provide accessors for all instance/class instance > variables, and try to get rid of inappropriate direct variable > accessing where possible? > > The "chasing variables" function is handy but seems more cumbersome > than just putting a halt in a setter. > > I know this would be a lot of work but maybe it could be automated. > > Just tell me to shut up and go away if I'm being a nuisance. In general I am a fan of self-style way of not destinguishing between sends and instvar access. (like NewSpeak, Gilad has some nice blog-posts on why you want message sends for everything). But one thing can be quite problematic: performance. In Morphic, some years ago somebody did this refactoring. *all* accesses where replaced by messages sends. The problem: performance. Especially the path when accessing morphic properties added *lots* of message sends, even for the case when it was supposed to fail fast (e.g. morph-extension nil). Just removing those got us a lot of performance back when comparing 3.9 with 3.8 (these changes where later added to the OLPC image, too). Of course, this can be optimized easily in a JITed environment, but just doing it for everything in Pharo now would not be wise. In addition, one would need to think about syntax.... implicit self, yes or no? The question about debugging of course can be solved, too, by making variables real objects that one can, for example, put a break-point on... Marcus -- Marcus Denker - http://marcusdenker.de PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

May 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] accessors

by Steve Wirts

It definitely is a time saver when debugging as you don't have to search for multiple occurrences of a variable being set in order to halt. I think of it as another form of encapsulation. Within a class itself all references to a variable would go through it's accessors for referencing. Kent Beck pattern #?? in his Smalltalk Best Practice Patterns book has a bit of a discussion on the merits of this approach. Maybe it's just a style thing and I should drop it though :) On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:14 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre(a)bergel.eu>wrote: > I kind of agree with Steve, however, it is hard to see how this will > increase the quality of source code. > > Alexandre > > > On 14 May 2009, at 19:10, Cameron Sanders wrote: > > > > > That is not always the best policy. If you provide public accessors > > for your private model elements (representation), the next thing you > > know people start using them! And then your model interfaces is > > constrained. > > > > ? or am i just talking trash ? > > > > > > On May 14, 2009, at 12:55 PM, Steve Wirts wrote: > > > >> Hi Folks, > >> > >> Would it be inappropriate to request that an effort be made at some > >> point to try to provide accessors for all instance/class instance > >> variables, and try to get rid of inappropriate direct variable > >> accessing where possible? > >> > >> The "chasing variables" function is handy but seems more cumbersome > >> than just putting a halt in a setter. > >> > >> I know this would be a lot of work but maybe it could be automated. > >> > >> Just tell me to shut up and go away if I'm being a nuisance. > > > > Oh, and please stick around... to draw attention away from my pesky > > questions. > > > >> > >> > >> Steve :) > > > > > > -cam > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

May 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] accessors

by Cameron Sanders

> perhaps private accessors could go into a different category? Oh yeah, one could do that. (sorry, i'm in a goofy mood ;) It turns out that I nearly always implement them for my code. So I do agree that it is a good policy, in general. Such a rewrite would likely (inevitably?) introduce some bugs. It would marginally slow down some of the code. I am not involved in any core code, so I will bow out of this thread. -Cam PS: what is your debugging situation? You want to find out what all code may be modifying an object? On May 14, 2009, at 1:13 PM, Steve Wirts wrote: > > > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Cameron Sanders <camsanders01(a)roadrunner.com > > wrote: > > That is not always the best policy. If you provide public accessors > for your private model elements (representation), the next thing you > know people start using them! And then your model interfaces is > constrained. > > ? or am i just talking trash ? > > > On May 14, 2009, at 12:55 PM, Steve Wirts wrote: > > > Hi Folks, > > > > Would it be inappropriate to request that an effort be made at some > > point to try to provide accessors for all instance/class instance > > variables, and try to get rid of inappropriate direct variable > > accessing where possible? > > > > The "chasing variables" function is handy but seems more cumbersome > > than just putting a halt in a setter. > > > > I know this would be a lot of work but maybe it could be automated. > > > > Just tell me to shut up and go away if I'm being a nuisance. > > Oh, and please stick around... to draw attention away from my pesky > questions. > > > > > > > Steve :) > > > -cam > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

May 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] accessors

by Alexandre Bergel

I kind of agree with Steve, however, it is hard to see how this will increase the quality of source code. Alexandre On 14 May 2009, at 19:10, Cameron Sanders wrote: > > That is not always the best policy. If you provide public accessors > for your private model elements (representation), the next thing you > know people start using them! And then your model interfaces is > constrained. > > ? or am i just talking trash ? > > > On May 14, 2009, at 12:55 PM, Steve Wirts wrote: > >> Hi Folks, >> >> Would it be inappropriate to request that an effort be made at some >> point to try to provide accessors for all instance/class instance >> variables, and try to get rid of inappropriate direct variable >> accessing where possible? >> >> The "chasing variables" function is handy but seems more cumbersome >> than just putting a halt in a setter. >> >> I know this would be a lot of work but maybe it could be automated. >> >> Just tell me to shut up and go away if I'm being a nuisance. > > Oh, and please stick around... to draw attention away from my pesky > questions. > >> >> >> Steve :) > > > -cam > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

May 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] accessors

by Steve Wirts

perhaps private accessors could go into a different category? On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Cameron Sanders < camsanders01(a)roadrunner.com> wrote: > > That is not always the best policy. If you provide public accessors > for your private model elements (representation), the next thing you > know people start using them! And then your model interfaces is > constrained. > > ? or am i just talking trash ? > > > On May 14, 2009, at 12:55 PM, Steve Wirts wrote: > > > Hi Folks, > > > > Would it be inappropriate to request that an effort be made at some > > point to try to provide accessors for all instance/class instance > > variables, and try to get rid of inappropriate direct variable > > accessing where possible? > > > > The "chasing variables" function is handy but seems more cumbersome > > than just putting a halt in a setter. > > > > I know this would be a lot of work but maybe it could be automated. > > > > Just tell me to shut up and go away if I'm being a nuisance. > > Oh, and please stick around... to draw attention away from my pesky > questions. > > > > > > > Steve :) > > > -cam > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

May 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] accessors

by Cameron Sanders

That is not always the best policy. If you provide public accessors for your private model elements (representation), the next thing you know people start using them! And then your model interfaces is constrained. ? or am i just talking trash ? On May 14, 2009, at 12:55 PM, Steve Wirts wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Would it be inappropriate to request that an effort be made at some > point to try to provide accessors for all instance/class instance > variables, and try to get rid of inappropriate direct variable > accessing where possible? > > The "chasing variables" function is handy but seems more cumbersome > than just putting a halt in a setter. > > I know this would be a lot of work but maybe it could be automated. > > Just tell me to shut up and go away if I'm being a nuisance. Oh, and please stick around... to draw attention away from my pesky questions. > > > Steve :) -cam

May 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] [ANN][Dev-Images] May 2009 versions

by Henrik Sperre Johansen

If you're talking about dragging a window, this is fixed in 304, so either update (dev image is 303), or switch off fastDragWindowsForMorphic preference. Cheers, Henry On 14.05.2009 18:18, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Damien, > > I fired it up, added a workspace and started to drage same - complete hang. That's on linux. > > Any other takers? > > Bill > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > >

May 14, 2009

[Pharo-project] accessors

by Steve Wirts

Hi Folks, Would it be inappropriate to request that an effort be made at some point to try to provide accessors for all instance/class instance variables, and try to get rid of inappropriate direct variable accessing where possible? The "chasing variables" function is handy but seems more cumbersome than just putting a halt in a setter. I know this would be a lot of work but maybe it could be automated. Just tell me to shut up and go away if I'm being a nuisance. Steve :)

May 14, 2009