- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S

by Rudi Engelbrecht

Hi Have you looked at Smalltalk/X? Includes GUI builders, super fast and has ValueModels. Maybe Pharo can learn a bit from ST/X? See http://www.exept.de/en/products/smalltalk-x/stx-overview Regards Rudi On 20 Jun 2009, at 6:17 AM, Cameron Sanders <camsanders01(a)roadrunner.com> wrote: > To come back to Juan's latest question, let me say: > I spent many months last year loading software development > environments for a variety of programming languages to see the state > of the world. And I found myself disappointed that we really haven't > bested smalltalk yet. Smalltalk is great, I just figured... > something better would have come along over the years. For ease of > realizing a design vision, and platform independence, it is hard to > beat smalltalk. > > I could not commit to VisualWorks because of the licensing terms, > for commercialize work. Dolphin is platform limited, and differs > from the other smalltalks. VisualAge is too pricey! [I tried the > other flavors too...] These are good tools, they just do not fit my > requirements or means. After digging around, I like the licensing > terms of Pharo. It is on the right track. It is rich in > functionality. It works; it is robust. > > I am strictly a user right now, but I will try to contribute in the > future. I like Stef's idea of a "bounty" -- great idea! > > So my advice for a free smalltalk is -- drumroll please... -- Pharo. > But don't ignore Squeak itself, nor the variants, depending on your > needs. > > That said, the the lack of a GUI builder is a clear deficiency. But > we will add one. [Ahem... i sound like royalty with my use of the > word "we"; i co-authored one in C/X/motif in the 1980s... it should > be at least that simple in smalltalk. The aforementioned tool took > two of us about one week; but I know nothing about Morph at this > time.] Depending on your needs, simple GUI's are easy to build with > Morph, but sometimes (most?) i just want to paint the interface and > give it some thought before fully wiring it. It allows one to > quickly probe whether the vision(the GUI) is an acceptable/ > comfortable/sufficient/... means for a user to interact with the > application. Especially when working with others programmers, and > worse, those pesky clients! Clients love interfaces. > > (I still do not know what Polymorph is, is it a completely different > system? a piggy-back system? They can co-exist right? but they use a > different value-changed notification system?) > > Pharo has value models, right? [Or am i... -- I'll look later.] > > Again, thanks to the good work of the Pharo people (and Squeak > people), I have found some sanity in life. I got tired of Python > changing. I cannot stand strong typing. I love Smalltalk. And the > best part is that it's free! > > Cheers, > Cam > PS: speed is another high-priority. VisualWorks and Dolphin feel > really snappy! > > > On Jun 19, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Steve Wirts wrote: > >> Value Models, TypeConverter library, SubCanvas support(super >> powerful idea here), etc... some really wonderful idioms long lost >> in OO guis. >> VisualWorks had some really nice frameworks that were discarded due >> to them being undervalued. >> I hope to eventually re-introduce some of these fun frameworks into >> pharo given my time constraints and interest from potential users. >> >> see >> http://c2.com/ppr/vmodels.html >> >> Magritte seems like it might be a superior alternative to >> VisualWorks ValueModels; I haven't explored it enough to really >> know yet. >> Pharo is the most exciting thing to come along for me in quite >> awhile! >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 4:42 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.f >> r> wrote: >> > >> > I don't know what I am waiting for -- except more time -- because I >> > guess I should build such a thing. (Are there any Pharo/squeak >> coders >> > available for part-time consulting over the next year? ...At >> student >> > level pay I must add.) >> > >> > I too want a GUI builder. >> >> >> me too :) >> So may be we could have a kind of bounty system for pharo. >> Frankly we are rather full and we (the core) have not that much >> time for >> extensions but we would support any work in the direction of >> UIBuilder >> TestServer >> Package.... >> FileWrite-Rio kind of integration >> Better MC support (yes I should look at MC1.5) >> Better SUnit >> Better tools (for example like the newInspector) >> >> Stef >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

June 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S

by Cameron Sanders

To come back to Juan's latest question, let me say: I spent many months last year loading software development environments for a variety of programming languages to see the state of the world. And I found myself disappointed that we really haven't bested smalltalk yet. Smalltalk is great, I just figured... something better would have come along over the years. For ease of realizing a design vision, and platform independence, it is hard to beat smalltalk. I could not commit to VisualWorks because of the licensing terms, for commercialize work. Dolphin is platform limited, and differs from the other smalltalks. VisualAge is too pricey! [I tried the other flavors too...] These are good tools, they just do not fit my requirements or means. After digging around, I like the licensing terms of Pharo. It is on the right track. It is rich in functionality. It works; it is robust. I am strictly a user right now, but I will try to contribute in the future. I like Stef's idea of a "bounty" -- great idea! So my advice for a free smalltalk is -- drumroll please... -- Pharo. But don't ignore Squeak itself, nor the variants, depending on your needs. That said, the the lack of a GUI builder is a clear deficiency. But we will add one. [Ahem... i sound like royalty with my use of the word "we"; i co-authored one in C/X/motif in the 1980s... it should be at least that simple in smalltalk. The aforementioned tool took two of us about one week; but I know nothing about Morph at this time.] Depending on your needs, simple GUI's are easy to build with Morph, but sometimes (most?) i just want to paint the interface and give it some thought before fully wiring it. It allows one to quickly probe whether the vision(the GUI) is an acceptable/comfortable/ sufficient/... means for a user to interact with the application. Especially when working with others programmers, and worse, those pesky clients! Clients love interfaces. (I still do not know what Polymorph is, is it a completely different system? a piggy-back system? They can co-exist right? but they use a different value-changed notification system?) Pharo has value models, right? [Or am i... -- I'll look later.] Again, thanks to the good work of the Pharo people (and Squeak people), I have found some sanity in life. I got tired of Python changing. I cannot stand strong typing. I love Smalltalk. And the best part is that it's free! Cheers, Cam PS: speed is another high-priority. VisualWorks and Dolphin feel really snappy! On Jun 19, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Steve Wirts wrote: > Value Models, TypeConverter library, SubCanvas support(super > powerful idea here), etc... some really wonderful idioms long lost > in OO guis. > VisualWorks had some really nice frameworks that were discarded due > to them being undervalued. > I hope to eventually re-introduce some of these fun frameworks into > pharo given my time constraints and interest from potential users. > > see > http://c2.com/ppr/vmodels.html > > Magritte seems like it might be a superior alternative to > VisualWorks ValueModels; I haven't explored it enough to really > know yet. > Pharo is the most exciting thing to come along for me in quite awhile! > > > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 4:42 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > > wrote: > > > > I don't know what I am waiting for -- except more time -- because I > > guess I should build such a thing. (Are there any Pharo/squeak > coders > > available for part-time consulting over the next year? ...At student > > level pay I must add.) > > > > I too want a GUI builder. > > > me too :) > So may be we could have a kind of bounty system for pharo. > Frankly we are rather full and we (the core) have not that much time > for > extensions but we would support any work in the direction of > UIBuilder > TestServer > Package.... > FileWrite-Rio kind of integration > Better MC support (yes I should look at MC1.5) > Better SUnit > Better tools (for example like the newInspector) > > Stef > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

June 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Steve, Interesting that you mention value models. I just ran into a use for a ValueHolder, and discovered that Dolphin's #value, #value: protocol was not present. In fact ValueHolder>>value answers the receiver! I added an override to my Dolphin compatibility package. I exepect to add AspectValueAdapter and perhaps some converters as need arises. None of this takes away from Magritte; I share your interest in it and willingness to consider it as potentially powerful tool for GUI building. Bill ________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Steve Wirts Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:01 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S Value Models, TypeConverter library, SubCanvas support(super powerful idea here), etc... some really wonderful idioms long lost in OO guis. VisualWorks had some really nice frameworks that were discarded due to them being undervalued. I hope to eventually re-introduce some of these fun frameworks into pharo given my time constraints and interest from potential users. see http://c2.com/ppr/vmodels.html Magritte seems like it might be a superior alternative to VisualWorks ValueModels; I haven't explored it enough to really know yet. Pharo is the most exciting thing to come along for me in quite awhile! On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 4:42 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr<mailto:stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>> wrote: > > I don't know what I am waiting for -- except more time -- because I > guess I should build such a thing. (Are there any Pharo/squeak coders > available for part-time consulting over the next year? ...At student > level pay I must add.) > > I too want a GUI builder. me too :) So may be we could have a kind of bounty system for pharo. Frankly we are rather full and we (the core) have not that much time for extensions but we would support any work in the direction of UIBuilder TestServer Package.... FileWrite-Rio kind of integration Better MC support (yes I should look at MC1.5) Better SUnit Better tools (for example like the newInspector) Stef _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

June 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S

by Steve Wirts

Value Models, TypeConverter library, SubCanvas support(super powerful idea here), etc... some really wonderful idioms long lost in OO guis. VisualWorks had some really nice frameworks that were discarded due to them being undervalued. I hope to eventually re-introduce some of these fun frameworks into pharo given my time constraints and interest from potential users. see http://c2.com/ppr/vmodels.html Magritte seems like it might be a superior alternative to VisualWorks ValueModels; I haven't explored it enough to really know yet. Pharo is the most exciting thing to come along for me in quite awhile! On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 4:42 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > wrote: > > > > I don't know what I am waiting for -- except more time -- because I > > guess I should build such a thing. (Are there any Pharo/squeak coders > > available for part-time consulting over the next year? ...At student > > level pay I must add.) > > > > I too want a GUI builder. > > > me too :) > So may be we could have a kind of bounty system for pharo. > Frankly we are rather full and we (the core) have not that much time for > extensions but we would support any work in the direction of > UIBuilder > TestServer > Package.... > FileWrite-Rio kind of integration > Better MC support (yes I should look at MC1.5) > Better SUnit > Better tools (for example like the newInspector) > > Stef > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

June 20, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] modifying a literal

by Alexandre Bergel

Something that I realized few minutes later i sent the email, in a coffee break with marcus Thanks, Alexandre On 19 Jun 2009, at 16:08, Lukas Renggli wrote: >> The following code freeze the image, and I have no idea why. >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >> Object compile: 'foo ^ Point new'. >> pointAssociation := (Object >> #foo) literals first. >> self assert: [pointAssociation isKindOf: Association]. >> self assert: [pointAssociation value == Point]. >> pointAssociation value: Color. "<-- this is the dangerous line" >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >> >> If I try to do "Object new foo", the whole image freezes. >> >> Any idea why? > > Class bindings are shared among the system dictionary and all code > that references them. This mechanism is central so that code with > undeclared references can be compiled and automatically resolves later > on without having to re-compile the complete system. > > Your code changes the binding of Point to point to Color. Obviously > that's fatal. After executing your code, Point is an alias to Color > and the actual Point class is garbage-collected. > > To make your code work you need to replace the complete literal with > > Smalltalk associationAt: #Color > > Cheers, > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

June 19, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> > I don't know what I am waiting for -- except more time -- because I > guess I should build such a thing. (Are there any Pharo/squeak coders > available for part-time consulting over the next year? ...At student > level pay I must add.) > > I too want a GUI builder. me too :) So may be we could have a kind of bounty system for pharo. Frankly we are rather full and we (the core) have not that much time for extensions but we would support any work in the direction of UIBuilder TestServer Package.... FileWrite-Rio kind of integration Better MC support (yes I should look at MC1.5) Better SUnit Better tools (for example like the newInspector) Stef

June 19, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Jun 19, 2009, at 9:45 PM, Cameron Sanders wrote: > Didn't I read somewhere that you can graphically "group" morphs > together via a menu option (e.g. make one widget a child of another)? > If so, and if relative positioning is preserved, then given how one > can create morphs in a workspace, it seems like the capability is > nearly there. We just need a browser to enable full binding to the > callbacks/blocks and a code storage spec that is compact. It seems > like it should be dead simple to build one from scratch, even if the > capability I inquired about (in the first sentence of this email) is > not present. > > I don't know what I am waiting for -- except more time -- because I > guess I should build such a thing. (Are there any Pharo/squeak coders > available for part-time consulting over the next year? ...At student > level pay I must add.) > > I too want a GUI builder. > > -Cam > > On Jun 19, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Michael Roberts wrote: > >> I think the question was 'where is the UI builder'?. In VW you have a >> builder where you can drag and drop (to a certain extent) widgets >> on a >> canvas and define their properties. I'm not sure we have this in >> Pharo. >> >> thanks, >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

June 19, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Jun 19, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Juan Pablo Cook wrote: > Ah ok, And a question, If you can help me... What framework with a > UiBuilder for Smalltalk free there is? It's a problem I think... None so far. We are at the beginner of a new area :) Now if you look at the examples send you you can also build user interfaces with polymorph and really sexy ones. But yes this is something needed. Stef > > Thanks a lot > > JP Cook > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 5:09 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > > wrote: > HI juan > > there is no UiBUilder as in VW in pharo. > This is not that we do not like but nobody implemented it yet :) > > Stef > > On Jun 19, 2009, at 8:32 PM, Juan Pablo Cook wrote: > > > Hi Everybody! Today I found this smalltalk IDE, and I have recently > > installed. I used to use VisualWorks. > > I like the general interface of this framework. What I want to know > > is where I make a "new Canvas"? or a GUI Window? There is a palette > > with widgets and these things? Thanks a lot, I've been finding a > > free IDE to develop in Smalltalk. > > > > Thanks a lot > > > > JP Cook - Argentina > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

June 19, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S

by Juan Pablo Cook

Ah ok, And a question, If you can help me... What framework with a UiBuilder for Smalltalk free there is? It's a problem I think... Thanks a lot JP Cook On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 5:09 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > wrote: > HI juan > > there is no UiBUilder as in VW in pharo. > This is not that we do not like but nobody implemented it yet :) > > Stef > > On Jun 19, 2009, at 8:32 PM, Juan Pablo Cook wrote: > > > Hi Everybody! Today I found this smalltalk IDE, and I have recently > > installed. I used to use VisualWorks. > > I like the general interface of this framework. What I want to know > > is where I make a "new Canvas"? or a GUI Window? There is a palette > > with widgets and these things? Thanks a lot, I've been finding a > > free IDE to develop in Smalltalk. > > > > Thanks a lot > > > > JP Cook - Argentina > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

June 19, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Making GUI'S

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

HI juan there is no UiBUilder as in VW in pharo. This is not that we do not like but nobody implemented it yet :) Stef On Jun 19, 2009, at 8:32 PM, Juan Pablo Cook wrote: > Hi Everybody! Today I found this smalltalk IDE, and I have recently > installed. I used to use VisualWorks. > I like the general interface of this framework. What I want to know > is where I make a "new Canvas"? or a GUI Window? There is a palette > with widgets and these things? Thanks a lot, I've been finding a > free IDE to develop in Smalltalk. > > Thanks a lot > > JP Cook - Argentina > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

June 19, 2009