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Re: [Pharo-project] Squeak Forks Popularity & Trends Estimate

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi nevin our goal is not predominancy :) It was never. I would be happy that squeak offers a really good multimedia platform. Our goal is to deliver good open source smalltalk. Our goal is to get agile, rethink the system, use good software engineering practices (systematic smallLnt rules), tests.... We want to propose/accept/evaluate new solutions: first class package, first class instance variables, better refactoring support, may be modules, security, new compiler.... Smalltalk deserves a clean and powerful implementation and we will work on that hard. Stef PS: you can forward this answer to squeak-dev if you feel the need. On Jul 6, 2009, at 3:17 AM, Nevin Pratt wrote: > There's no right or wrong answer to the following three questions. > And, > every response is meaningful, because it helps reveal the general > sense > of direction that the community is feeling. > > *********************** > Question #1: Of the various Squeak forks (such as Croquet, Pharo, > etc.), > what is your feeling of their relative popularities at this point in > time, and how does that compare with the current popularity of the > base > Squeak distribution? > > Question #2: This is related to the above-- what is your feeling of > the > relative popularity *trend* of each of the forks, and how does that > compare with your feeling of the *trend* of the future popularity of > the > base Squeak distribution? > > Question #3: What is your justification for your answers to the above > two questions? > ************************ > > I'll begin with my own answers... > > ...I'm beginning to feel like the Pharo fork currently now has maybe > 50% > or more of the popularity of the base Squeak distro, and I'm beginning > to feel like Pharo is headed to become the dominant distribution in > the > future, surpassing the original Squeak distro. And I base that > feeling > on several observations: > > 1. The email traffic comparison on the "Pharo-project" email list > compared to the email traffic on "The general-purpose Squeak > developers > list", and the observed trend in such traffic. > > 2. The number of developers posting on the Pharo-project email list. > > 3. The specific developers posting on the Pharo-project email list > (known Squeakers who have contributed heavily to Squeak in the past). > > 4. The fact that Seaside development has moved to Pharo. > > At one time I wondered if Croquet would become the dominant Squeak > fork, > for the simple reason that it had a business organization "officially" > supporting it, similar to what Squeak had in the Disney days. But > now I > think I would bet my money on Pharo. > > What do you think? And why? > > Also, remember, there's certainly nothing wrong with several > "dominant" > forks existing. But of those, one of them will still be the most > popular overall. And I'm curious about thoughts of which one that is, > and which one that will become, and why you think so. > > Nevin > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 6, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] FFI problem

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Reported by Benoit St-Jean in mailing list. To reproduce it: Download latest Windows VM (Squeak 3.11.2) from Pharo webpage. Then evaluate ScriptLoader loadFFI and try to run FFI tests. The image will crash! Tried in Linux and had no problem. There are crash2.dmp and crash.dmp attached. One from Andreas and another from Benoit St-Jean. Andreas Raab said: "Interesting. This appears to be a Pharo-only problem. I ran the FFI tests using the 3.11.2 VM on the current 3.10.2 release image and they works fine. I've also ran the test against a 3.10.2 closure converted image (on the off-chance that it might be closure related) and the tests pass too. So I don't really think it's an FFI problem. You'll probably have to ask Pharo people to help you with the problem; the FFI appears to be fully functional on both pre- and post-closure images." Comment 1 by amtw...(a)hotmail.com, Jul 04 (44 hours ago) I thought I would take a look at this, but ScriptLoader loadFFI doesn't work anymore. It would appear that this is because http://source.squeakfoundation.org/FFI no longer exists. Delete comment Comment 2 by marianopeck, Yesterday (35 hours ago) You can download it from source.squeak.org now Delete comment Comment 3 by amtw...(a)hotmail.com, Yesterday (32 hours ago) After loading from source.squeak.org and running the tests, I get inconsistent results. Sometimes the image crashes; sometimes I get 1 error and 1 failure. Further investigation shows that FFI-Kernel-ar. 9.mcz has lost its postscript definition and so 'Smalltalk recreateSpecialObjectsArray.' is not run when it is loaded/unloaded. To ensure that it runs correctly, evaluate "Smalltalk recreateSpecialObjectsArray." after loading . Delete comment Comment 4 by marianopeck, Today (14 hours ago) Andrew: I don't know what "Smalltalk recreateSpecialObjectsArray." is, but I evaluated that after loadFFI and tests worked perfect! What we can change is the ScriptLoader>>loadFFI so that it does "Smalltalk recreateSpecialObjectsArray." after installing FFI. What do you think?

July 6, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] FFI problem

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Ok we will check the loadFFI in scriptLoader. Stef > Andreas: can you see new comments here: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=908 > > What do you think? > > Thanks! > > Mariano > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com > > wrote: > I crated the issue so that no to forget about it: > > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=908

July 6, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Loads of Pharo development process questions

by David RÃ¶thlisberger

Hi Reinout > What is the status of the dev-image? As delivered the tools are broken > (because context menus on the source pane raise an UHE that is induced > by OB-Enhancements, issue 904), is it actively used by the main > committers or is the core image the place to be? > Even more confusingly the above issue has been marked as fixed this > night but if I do a World->System->Software Update the bug persists in > my image. You can get the fix by executing 'ScriptLoader loadOBAlpha' in a workspace. See Stephane's answer why this fix is not provided by 'software update'. David

July 6, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Tests

by Damien Cassou

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 12:36 PM, Adrian Lienhard<adi(a)netstyle.ch> wrote: > Running the tests in the latest core (10371), I get the following > results: > 5154 run, 5133 passes, 2 expected failures, 17 failures, 2 errors > > Comparing to the last result in 10292cl [1]: > 3029 run, 2956 passes, 2 expected failures, 24 failures, 47 errors > > > I wonder how it is possible to get from 3029 to 5154 tests? More tests, less problems, why do you care? :-) -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry

July 6, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Why does Pharo have both a System Browser and a Class Browser?

by Damien Cassou

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 6:54 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz<oscar(a)iam.unibe.ch> wrote: > In the Tools ... menu there are entries for both a System Browser and > a Class Browser. Â Both give you an OmniBrowser Package Browser. > > Is there a reason for this? Fixed -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry

July 6, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Tests

by Cyrille Delaunay

It's probably that.I just try to run the tests from FloatArray ( that was not tested at all before), it represent 251 tests. With all collections tested it seems possible that there is like 2000 new tests. 2009/7/6 Marcus Denker <denker(a)acm.org> > > On 05.07.2009, at 12:36, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > > > Running the tests in the latest core (10371), I get the following > > results: > > 5154 run, 5133 passes, 2 expected failures, 17 failures, 2 errors > > > > Comparing to the last result in 10292cl [1]: > > 3029 run, 2956 passes, 2 expected failures, 24 failures, 47 errors > > > > > > > > I wonder how it is possible to get from 3029 to 5154 tests? > > > I think this is because of the Traits-based test for Collections > (written > by Cyrille). > > Marcus > > > > > > > -- > Marcus Denker - http://marcusdenker.de > PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

July 6, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] request for the new merge tool :)

by Gary Chambers

Should be straightforward... Any other menu options you'd like? Regards, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "StÃ©phane Ducasse" <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> To: "Pharo Development" <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 5:02 PM Subject: [Pharo-project] request for the new merge tool :) > hi gary > > it would be important to be able to install a method by clicking on it > as we could do it in the old one. > > Stef > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 6, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Tests

by Marcus Denker

On 05.07.2009, at 12:36, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > Running the tests in the latest core (10371), I get the following > results: > 5154 run, 5133 passes, 2 expected failures, 17 failures, 2 errors > > Comparing to the last result in 10292cl [1]: > 3029 run, 2956 passes, 2 expected failures, 24 failures, 47 errors > > > > I wonder how it is possible to get from 3029 to 5154 tests? > I think this is because of the Traits-based test for Collections (written by Cyrille). Marcus -- Marcus Denker - http://marcusdenker.de PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

July 6, 2009

[Pharo-project] Squeak Forks Popularity & Trends Estimate

by Nevin Pratt

There's no right or wrong answer to the following three questions. And, every response is meaningful, because it helps reveal the general sense of direction that the community is feeling. *********************** Question #1: Of the various Squeak forks (such as Croquet, Pharo, etc.), what is your feeling of their relative popularities at this point in time, and how does that compare with the current popularity of the base Squeak distribution? Question #2: This is related to the above-- what is your feeling of the relative popularity *trend* of each of the forks, and how does that compare with your feeling of the *trend* of the future popularity of the base Squeak distribution? Question #3: What is your justification for your answers to the above two questions? ************************ I'll begin with my own answers... ...I'm beginning to feel like the Pharo fork currently now has maybe 50% or more of the popularity of the base Squeak distro, and I'm beginning to feel like Pharo is headed to become the dominant distribution in the future, surpassing the original Squeak distro. And I base that feeling on several observations: 1. The email traffic comparison on the "Pharo-project" email list compared to the email traffic on "The general-purpose Squeak developers list", and the observed trend in such traffic. 2. The number of developers posting on the Pharo-project email list. 3. The specific developers posting on the Pharo-project email list (known Squeakers who have contributed heavily to Squeak in the past). 4. The fact that Seaside development has moved to Pharo. At one time I wondered if Croquet would become the dominant Squeak fork, for the simple reason that it had a business organization "officially" supporting it, similar to what Squeak had in the Disney days. But now I think I would bet my money on Pharo. What do you think? And why? Also, remember, there's certainly nothing wrong with several "dominant" forks existing. But of those, one of them will still be the most popular overall. And I'm curious about thoughts of which one that is, and which one that will become, and why you think so. Nevin

July 6, 2009