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Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: [squeak-dev] Re: Usability and look-and-feel (was Re: The future ofSqueak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT licenseclean))

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Keith where can I find MC1.5 because I could not find it on squeaksource. Is it Monticello Public? ? Installer installSilentlyUrl: 'http://installer.pbwiki.com/f/PackageInfo-Base-kph.67.st' . Installer installSilentlyUrl: 'http://installer.pbwiki.com/f/Monticello.impl-kph.635.st' . Stef On Jul 10, 2009, at 3:27 PM, Keith Hodges wrote: > Henrik Sperre Johansen wrote: >> On 09.07.2009 23:03, Lukas Renggli wrote: >>>> OUCH!!!! That's quite an example; just for giggles, I started up >>>> a 3.9 polymorph image and retraced my steps (via message names, >>>> same as in Pharo) and had a prompt reply. After doing that, I >>>> found that Pharo (win32) had indeed completed the task. >>>> >>> >>> Again, this has nothing to do with Pharo, OmniBrowser or Polymorph. >>> >>> This is PackageInfo that is so slow when trying to find out the >>> owning >>> package of each of the 6334 methods. If the display of the package >>> for >>> every method is removed the sender browser opens almost instantly. >>> >>> Lukas >>> >>> > I don't know if this helps but in MC1.5 Matthew sped up the > PackageInfo > routines for scanning the image by a factor of 10 or so. > > Keith > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Graphical Objects

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>>>> Hi brad >>>> No :) >>>> We removed it ;) because it was a mess >>>> but I would like to have have a better one. >>>> We could imagine morph to use a creation method with a pragma and >>>> that a tool would query that pragma >>>> and we could get the morph. >>> >>> I agree that it was messy, from my inexperienced skillset. I would >>> love to have a way to create projects or books and populate with >>> graphics and multimedia for presentations. Pharo looks so nice and >>> it >>> seems to run quickly (could be my mind though) that it would be >>> great >>> to use. >> >> we will remove BookMorph because it is a giant huge terrible mess. >> Now if you want multimedia publishing or creation have you look at >> openSophie? > > I have looked at Sophie in a limited way.. First, it's Java now > (hmmmm..) But, kidding aside, I didn't particularity like the way > Sophie confined the space for objects. My perception might clearly be > a result of my limited use of (Squeak) Sophie, perhaps John can steer > me in the right direction. I also believe (Java) Sophie is just in > alpha and Squeak Sophie is not maintained. > > I just liked the way I could create presentations in Squeak - it > seemed open and I could create any new objects or tweak the old by > adjusting code. I liked that too except that I lost my soul trying to do a loop to load projects for my presentation. In pharo there is bookmorph anymore (if someone wants to build a new one we would be happy but not one like the old one). I did a tiny project once to create slideMorph but this was not as complete as bookmorph but may be a start. Stef

July 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Graphical Objects

by Brad Fuller

On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 1:32 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse<stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > On Jul 14, 2009, at 9:50 PM, Brad Fuller wrote: > >> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 12:40 PM, StÃ©phane >> Ducasse<stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >>> Hi brad >>> No :) >>> We removed it ;) because it was a mess >>> but I would like to have have a better one. >>> We could imagine morph to use a creation method with Â a pragma and >>> that a tool would query that pragma >>> and we could get the morph. >> >> I agree that it was messy, from my inexperienced skillset. I would >> love to have a way to create projects or books and populate with >> graphics and multimedia for presentations. Pharo looks so nice and it >> seems to run quickly (could be my mind though) that it would be great >> to use. > > we will remove BookMorph because it is a giant huge terrible mess. > Now if you want multimedia publishing or creation have you look at > openSophie? I have looked at Sophie in a limited way.. First, it's Java now (hmmmm..) But, kidding aside, I didn't particularity like the way Sophie confined the space for objects. My perception might clearly be a result of my limited use of (Squeak) Sophie, perhaps John can steer me in the right direction. I also believe (Java) Sophie is just in alpha and Squeak Sophie is not maintained. I just liked the way I could create presentations in Squeak - it seemed open and I could create any new objects or tweak the old by adjusting code. -- Brad Fuller +1 (408) 335-0112

July 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Graphical Objects

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Jul 14, 2009, at 9:50 PM, Brad Fuller wrote: > On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 12:40 PM, StÃ©phane > Ducasse<stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> Hi brad >> No :) >> We removed it ;) because it was a mess >> but I would like to have have a better one. >> We could imagine morph to use a creation method with a pragma and >> that a tool would query that pragma >> and we could get the morph. > > I agree that it was messy, from my inexperienced skillset. I would > love to have a way to create projects or books and populate with > graphics and multimedia for presentations. Pharo looks so nice and it > seems to run quickly (could be my mind though) that it would be great > to use. we will remove BookMorph because it is a giant huge terrible mess. Now if you want multimedia publishing or creation have you look at openSophie? Stef > > >> >> Stef >> >> where we can create Morphs (that can be created). >> >> On Jul 14, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Brad Fuller wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I just looked at Pharo and it's nice and organized. Wow! I was >>> wondering if anyone has ported the graphical objects window from >>> mainline squeak - the selection from the main menu "objects" which >>> creates a morph of a variety of objects to choose for drawing, >>> scripting and displaying (with Rectangles, Book, Image, Text, >>> Multimedia submenu, etc.) >>> >>> -- >>> Brad Fuller >>> +1 (408) 335-0112 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > > -- > Brad Fuller > +1 (408) 335-0112 > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Graphical Objects

by Brad Fuller

On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 12:40 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse<stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Hi brad > No :) > We removed it ;) because it was a mess > but I would like to have have a better one. > We could imagine morph to use a creation method with Â a pragma and > that a tool would query that pragma > and we could get the morph. I agree that it was messy, from my inexperienced skillset. I would love to have a way to create projects or books and populate with graphics and multimedia for presentations. Pharo looks so nice and it seems to run quickly (could be my mind though) that it would be great to use. > > Stef > > where we can create Morphs (that can be created). > > On Jul 14, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Brad Fuller wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I just looked at Pharo and it's nice and organized. Wow! I was >> wondering if anyone has ported the graphical objects window from >> mainline squeak - the selection from the main menu "objects" which >> creates a morph of a variety of objects to choose for drawing, >> scripting Â and displaying (with Rectangles, Book, Image, Text, >> Multimedia submenu, etc.) >> >> -- >> Brad Fuller >> +1 (408) 335-0112 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > -- Brad Fuller +1 (408) 335-0112

July 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo-Dev/web Image slowness

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Thanks esteban. > Hi Stef, > > 2009/7/14 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: >> Hi estaban > [SNIP] > >>> As a side note, I downloaded the latest Cuis image from http://www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Index.html >>> , and its amazingly fast. > >> As a side note. We do not consider ourselves in competition with >> Cuis. >> We integrated more than 1500 bug fixes and improvements (pragmas, >> closure compiler, traits....) and even more if we consider the >> version >> used in Cuis. > > I know you're not competition, just put the example as a comparison of > how fast a minimum image can run on actual hardware. > > I know Pharo is a superior alternative, with not only speed in mind. > And I like its objective. > >> We support truetype fonts and we are cleaning the system, when the >> cruft will be removed we will probably focus on making it faster. > > I understand, it just surprised me that an alpha release was such > slow, as somebody said below its simple dissuasive to "give Pharo a > try now it's alpha" and find that. > >> We are rewriting Package info from scratch. >> Now it takes time but feel free to join. > > I hope to contribute with something, even if it's just a bug report/ > fix. > > Regards, > > > -- > Esteban. > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo-Dev/web Image slowness

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Ok we will fix that for 1.0 right now we are not even in beta. Stef > Users don't know the details and they don't care. If they open a Pharo > image and its slow, then this just gives a bad impression. If people > start telling each other "Pharo is slow", we will loose reputation > that is very hard to win back. > > +9999999999999999999999999999 > > I recommend Pharo to a lot of people that was using Squeak and this > is the first thing they told me and the first thing that happens. It > doesn't matter how many fixes you did, or closures or traits. If you > open a browser and takes 1 seconds. You close it. You even don't see > all of the real features. And as Andrian says, they doesn't know why > it is slow, or how to have a faster Pharo . They don't know what to > remove or whateever. > > Please, we are loosing gays for this topic. > > > > So I suggest to either disable the features that make the browser slow > so that it is snappy again or to replace it with the version Lukas is > using until it is fast enough. > > As I said, +999999999999999999999 > > > > > Cheers, > Adrian > > > On Jul 14, 2009, at 11:49 , Michael Rueger wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 11:47 AM, StÃ©phane > > Ducasse<stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >> take the core image. > >> The default tools in web dev are too slow right now. > > > > Maybe we should point that out somewhere as we promote the dev- > images > > as being "Pharo"? > > As we can see from some of the discussion on the Squeak list people > > then think Pharo in general is dog slow... > > > > Michael > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Graphical Objects

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi brad No :) We removed it ;) because it was a mess but I would like to have have a better one. We could imagine morph to use a creation method with a pragma and that a tool would query that pragma and we could get the morph. Stef where we can create Morphs (that can be created). On Jul 14, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Brad Fuller wrote: > Hi All, > > I just looked at Pharo and it's nice and organized. Wow! I was > wondering if anyone has ported the graphical objects window from > mainline squeak - the selection from the main menu "objects" which > creates a morph of a variety of objects to choose for drawing, > scripting and displaying (with Rectangles, Book, Image, Text, > Multimedia submenu, etc.) > > -- > Brad Fuller > +1 (408) 335-0112 > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Fwd: Cleanups?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

shutdown is when the image goes to sleep now we could imagine a protocol so cleaning just for tighter memory footprint On Jul 14, 2009, at 5:05 PM, Benoit St-Jean wrote: > Shouldn't some of this stuff be cleaned (cache clearing, nilling > instances/singletons, etc) in the #shutDown method ? > > ----------------- > Benoit St-Jean > Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean > Blog: lamneth.wordpress.com > A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero. > (Albert Einstein) > > > From: StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > To: Pharo Development <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> > Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 6:13:00 AM > Subject: [Pharo-project] Fwd: Cleanups? > > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: pharo-project-owner(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> Date: July 14, 2009 12:06:37 PM CEDT >> To: stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr >> Subject: Cleanups? >> >> You are not allowed to post to this mailing list, and your message >> has >> been automatically rejected. If you think that your messages are >> being rejected in error, contact the mailing list owner at >> pharo-project-owner(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr. >> >> >> From: stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> >> Date: July 14, 2009 12:06:29 PM CEDT >> To: Pharo Development <Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> >> Subject: Cleanups? >> >> >> which reminds me that I want to integrate the "cleanUp" freespace >> methods of keith. >> >> Stef >> >> >> From: Ken G. Brown <kbrown <at> mac.com> >> Subject: Re: image maintenance & cleanup methods >> Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.smalltalk.squeak.general >> Date: 2009-07-14 01:02:12 GMT (9 hours and 1 minute ago) >> Have any more cleanup methods been added to this list? >> I was just adding some things to <http://installer.pbworks.com/FreeSomeSpace >> > >> >> Ken G. Brown >> >> At 4:01 AM -0800 2/12/09, squeak-dev-request <at> >> lists.squeakfoundation.org apparently wrote: >> >Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:13:50 -0800 >> >From: John M McIntosh <johnmci <at> smalltalkconsulting.com> >> >Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] ditching Monticello objects. >> >To: Keith Hodges <keith_hodges <at> yahoo.co.uk> >> >Cc: The general-purpose Squeak developers list >> > <squeak-dev <at> lists.squeakfoundation.org> >> >Message-ID: >> > <B07FF75B-07C4-4C3F-ABB9-E6397B70AC73 <at> smalltalkconsulting.com> >> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes >> > >> >Ok, well I did >> > >> >I've been collecting lists of pruning methods so.. >> > >> > ScrollBar initializeImagesCache. >> > GradientFillStyle initPixelRampCache. >> > NaturalLanguageFormTranslator classPool at: #CachedTranslations >> put: >> >nil. >> > NaturalLanguageTranslator resetCaches. >> > PartsBin clearThumbnailCache. >> > PaintBoxMorph classPool at: #ColorChart put: nil. >> > PaintBoxMorph classPool at: #Prototype put: nil. >> > ImageMorph classPool at: #DefaultForm put: (Form extent: 1 <at> 1 >> depth: 1). >> > Utilities classPool at: #ScrapsBook put: nil. >> > Project allInstancesDo: [ :each | each setThumbnail: nil ]. >> > ScriptingSystem stripGraphicsForExternalRelease. >> > ProjectHistory currentHistory initialize. >> > Utilities zapUpdateDownloader. >> > Smalltalk forgetDoIts. >> > Behavior flushObsoleteSubclasses. >> > CommandHistory allInstancesDo: #initialize. >> > ChangeSorter removeChangeSetsNamedSuchThat: [ :each | true ]. >> > ChangeSet resetCurrentToNewUnnamedChangeSet. >> > MethodChangeRecord allInstancesDo: [ :x | x noteNewMethod: nil ]. >> > RequiredSelectors initialize. >> > ProvidedSelectors initialize. >> > LocalSends initialize. >> > SendCaches initializeAllInstances. >> > Utilities cleanseOtherworldlySteppers. >> > Smalltalk organization removeEmptyCategories. >> > Browser initialize. >> > SMSqueakMap default purge. >> > SystemBrowser removeObsolete. >> > TheWorldMenu removeObsolete. >> > AppRegistry removeObsolete. >> > FileServices removeObsolete. >> > MCFileBasedRepository flushAllCaches. >> > MCDefinition clearInstances. >> > Undeclared removeUnreferencedKeys. >> > Smalltalk flushClassNameCache. >> > 3 timesRepeat: [ Smalltalk garbageCollect. Symbol >> compactSymbolTable ]. >> > Set rehashAllSets. >> > Smalltalk garbageCollect. >> > >> > >> > >> >I added these ones. >> > >> > ChangeSorter initializeChangeSetCategories. >> > MCWorkingCopy inspect. >> > MCRepositoryGroup inspect. >> > MCCacheRepository inspect. >> > >> >and cleaned up the class instance variables & any class vars via the >> >inspect. >> > >> >That removed all the MC packages and MC http repositories from the >> MC >> >Browser >> > >> >gave me back 4 megabytes of image space. >> > >> >Well brute force, still 4 mb wonderful to get back this late in the >> >project. >> > >> > >> >On 11-Feb-09, at 6:18 PM, Keith Hodges wrote: >> > >> >> John M McIntosh wrote: >> >>> I'm building an image for a limited memory hardware platform. >> >>> >> >>> At the point here where I want to *deploy* things and I can see >> that >> >>> various parts of Monticello >> >>> are consuming well over a megabyte of memory to retain >> MCVersionInfo >> >>> instances, MCMethodDefinition(s), time stamps, uuids, etc etc >> >>> >> >>> I'm wondering if anyone has some code to strip all that out thus >> >>> returning I suspect a couple of MB back for more constructive >> usage? >> >> You may want to look into the cleanUp/freeSomeSpace conventions. >> MC1.5 >> >> has a few implemented. There are many more available from >> >> http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=7244 >> >> >> >> Keith >> > >> >-- >> >= >> >= >> >= >> > >> = >> = >> = >> ===================================================================== >> >John M. McIntosh <johnmci <at> smalltalkconsulting.com> >> >Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com >> >= >> >= >> >= >> > >> = >> = >> = >> ===================================================================== >> >> >> >> > > > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

July 14, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Baseline test results

by Michael Roberts

I just did the simplest thing I could think of ;-) I will put something in the task forces. Could someone please update the wiki to include this repository, and to link that into our process documentation. I could not find anything, just in the mail archives. thanks, Mike

July 14, 2009