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Re: [Pharo-project] We need to do something, seriously!!!! [WAS] Fwd: Issue 1721: Refactoring appears to be broken in web dev image. e.g. OBClassNode(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #dynamicProtocols

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Yes lukas now damien was nice to build the images because I could not do them. But damien is doing Java daily. And you do not like the package browser and we need it :). So I do not know what to do. - first we should add simple trait creation to the OB - now frankly I do not know how we could manage moose without the package browser. Stef On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:16 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: >> I have already said it several times. Most of the people don't care how >> nice, fast, clean, open source and well programmed is the Pharo Core image >> if they cannot use the Dev or Web image. > > This is what I am telling for years already. I don't know how other > people think about this, but to me it feels very embarrassing to have > to advertise my own way of building images over and over again? > > Here is it again: I am using the scripts > <http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/ImageBuildScripts> to get from a > Pharo 1.0rc1 a fast and stable development and deployment image. The > image loads a well tested and fast OB, a working and well tested > refactoring engine, working syntax highlighting, working code > completion, and several other tools I use daily and that I cannot work > without. I am not telling it is bug free, but with my personal > workflow I can use it without getting interrupted by bugs all the > time. And when I encounter a bug, I fix it. > > I don't think that somebody can build a stable distribution without > using it 12 hours daily. Have a look at PharoCore, it is only rock > solid because Stef is using it all day long to integrate fixes. Have a > look at Squeak Trunk, it only sees improvement because Andreas is > using it all day long. Have a look at Debian, Gentoo, ... > > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] We need to do something, seriously!!!! [WAS] Fwd: Issue 1721: Refactoring appears to be broken in web dev image. e.g. OBClassNode(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #dynamicProtocols

by Lukas Renggli

> I have already said it several times. Most of the people don't care how > nice, fast, clean, open source and well programmed is the Pharo Core image > if they cannot use the Dev or Web image. This is what I am telling for years already. I don't know how other people think about this, but to me it feels very embarrassing to have to advertise my own way of building images over and over again? Here is it again: I am using the scripts <http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/ImageBuildScripts> to get from a Pharo 1.0rc1 a fast and stable development and deployment image. The image loads a well tested and fast OB, a working and well tested refactoring engine, working syntax highlighting, working code completion, and several other tools I use daily and that I cannot work without. I am not telling it is bug free, but with my personal workflow I can use it without getting interrupted by bugs all the time. And when I encounter a bug, I fix it. I don't think that somebody can build a stable distribution without using it 12 hours daily. Have a look at PharoCore, it is only rock solid because Stef is using it all day long to integrate fixes. Have a look at Squeak Trunk, it only sees improvement because Andreas is using it all day long. Have a look at Debian, Gentoo, ... Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

Dec. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo-beginner mailing list ? (St?phane Ducasse)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> +1 > > Please start a beginner mailing list because Pharo is also some > people's first look at smalltalk. A place to ask a mixture of question > that come from being new to both would be welcome. I wrote the first version of the description about this one for squeak and I like the spirit A friendly place to get answers to even the most basic questions about Squeak. <beginners(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org> Stef

Dec. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] We need to do something, seriously!!!! [WAS] Fwd: Issue 1721: Refactoring appears to be broken in web dev image. e.g. OBClassNode(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #dynamicProtocols

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

I agree.! Now what I suggest is that we do not release a pharo-dev image without having tested it. > Hi folks. I am really concerned about the instability of the dev and web images. WE CANNOT RELEASE a RC where you cannot even double click in a class. This cannot happens. I agree. > We all know that all software can have bugs. But again, we cannot release images, and even RC images, which are supposed to be quite stable, where you cannot right click a class, you cannot refactor, you cannot even right click in the code pane. And don't told me "I use the keyboard" because I don't care what you do. A lot of people use the mouse. :) > I have already said it several times. Most of the people don't care how nice, fast, clean, open source and well programmed is the Pharo Core image if they cannot use the Dev or Web image. > > Remember that our users are external users, you even don't care about the core. They just use Pharo, they are not developers. > > I really think we need to fix this. You are giving a bad impression of something which is not true. You are doing AN EXCELLENT work with PharoCore. Why to wast all of this for this kind of situations? It is a pity :( yes > 1) We are building a dev image per month more or lest. 5 days before en of months (more or less), the dev image should be built. > > 2) During 5 years, some people will use that image as a beta tester. I would ideally to have different users: different OS, different browsers, etc. > This people will use that image for their work for those 5 days and report any bug that appears. Of course, not all people can do that. > How is volunteer to be beta tester ? We can create a wiki page for that if you are agree with the idea. This is a good idea. > 3) After those 5 days, if the image is stable enough, it is released. If it is not, it is just not released. Nobody will kill you if one month you don't release a new image. In addition, is better not to release an unstable image that releasing it and not be able to do a single right click. Let us give a try. Now we should fix the current one. > > In Canonical, all the employees MUST to use for one month or more each Ubuntu release. We are not employee, but we can do something similar. > > What do you think ? Sounds cool. > > Cheers > > Mariano > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Stan Shepherd <stan.shepherd414(a)gmail.com> > Date: Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:26 PM > Subject: [Pharo-project] Issue 1721: Refactoring appears to be broken in web dev image. e.g. OBClassNode(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #dynamicProtocols > To: pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > > > NB this logs a particular walkback, but the whole area appears to be > unworkable in the web dev image. Please could the maintainers click, right > click, middle click on each part of refactoring browser, take each menu > item, etc. This will be much quicker than logging one bug at a time. > If this turns out to be the last one, my apologies in advance. > Thanks. ...Stan > > > VM: unix - i686 - linux-gnu - Pharo0.1 of 16 May 2008 [latest update: > #10074] > Image: PharoCore1.0rc1 [Latest update: #10502] pharo1.0-10502-rc1web09.12.2 > > Class browser used (if applicable): OR2PackageBrowser. > > OBClassNode(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #dynamicProtocols > Receiver: OBClassNode<ShortIntegerArray> > Arguments and temporary variables: > aMessage: dynamicProtocols > exception: MessageNotUnderstood: OBClassNode>>dynamicProtocols > resumeValue: nil > Receiver's instance variables: > metaNode: Class > #allCategory->AllMethodCategory > #categories->MethodCategory > #dy...etc... > navigation: an O2DefaultEdgeNavigation > theClass: ShortIntegerArray > > O2MetaEdge>>nodesForParent: > Receiver: #dynamicProtocols->DynamicProtocols > Arguments and temporary variables: > aNode: OBClassNode<ShortIntegerArray> > Receiver's instance variables: > label: 'dynamicProtocols' > selector: #dynamicProtocols > metaNode: DynamicProtocols > #methods->Method > > navigation: an O2DefaultEdgeNavigation > isDropEdge: nil > > ... > -- > View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Issue-1721-Refactoring-appears-to-be-broken-in-web-dev… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo-beginner mailing list ? (St?phane Ducasse)

by John Escobedo

+1 Please start a beginner mailing list because Pharo is also some people's first look at smalltalk. A place to ask a mixture of question that come from being new to both would be welcome.

Dec. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo-beginner mailing list ?

by Mariano Martinez Peck

yes ;) I was just explained why I said one hour :) On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:46 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > wrote: > ok let us wait to get more feedback on the idea... > > Stef > On Dec 30, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:29 PM, Johan Fabry <jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl> > wrote: > > > > How do we subscribe? > > > > On 30 Dec 2009, at 14:09, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > > > > > My point is that some people may be bored by too technical discussions > > > Miguel I agree on the number of list. We should check if there is > > > enough people. > > > @Adrian: the forum idea is nice but I do not why it did not work for > > > Smalltalk. > > > I went to the site you mentioned but I could not get how it works. > > > > > >> +1 I would create it. It is not more than 1 hour or so of work. > > > 3min :) > > > > Yes, but after creating the list, I think you should also: > > > > - Send an ANN to this list, ESUG and even Squeak mailing lists. > > - Add that information to http://www.pharo-project.org/community > > - Add gmane and nabble bots to it > > - Some people can post in their blogs about it > > > > Cheers, > > > > Mariano > > > > > > > > -- > > Johan Fabry > > jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry<http://dcc.uchile.cl/%7Ejfabry> > > PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Dec. 30, 2009

[Pharo-project] We need to do something, seriously!!!! [WAS] Fwd: Issue 1721: Refactoring appears to be broken in web dev image. e.g. OBClassNode(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #dynamicProtocols

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Hi folks. I am really concerned about the instability of the dev and web images. WE CANNOT RELEASE a RC where you cannot even double click in a class. This cannot happens. We all know that all software can have bugs. But again, we cannot release images, and even RC images, which are supposed to be quite stable, where you cannot right click a class, you cannot refactor, you cannot even right click in the code pane. And don't told me "I use the keyboard" because I don't care what you do. A lot of people use the mouse. I have already said it several times. Most of the people don't care how nice, fast, clean, open source and well programmed is the Pharo Core image if they cannot use the Dev or Web image. Remember that our users are external users, you even don't care about the core. They just use Pharo, they are not developers. I really think we need to fix this. You are giving a bad impression of something which is not true. You are doing AN EXCELLENT work with PharoCore. Why to wast all of this for this kind of situations? It is a pity :( I don't know the best solution for this. I will only give an idea I have, but I would really like to hear you ideas and do something with this. 1) We are building a dev image per month more or lest. 5 days before en of months (more or less), the dev image should be built. 2) During 5 years, some people will use that image as a beta tester. I would ideally to have different users: different OS, different browsers, etc. This people will use that image for their work for those 5 days and report any bug that appears. Of course, not all people can do that. How is volunteer to be beta tester ? We can create a wiki page for that if you are agree with the idea. 3) After those 5 days, if the image is stable enough, it is released. If it is not, it is just not released. Nobody will kill you if one month you don't release a new image. In addition, is better not to release an unstable image that releasing it and not be able to do a single right click. In Canonical, all the employees MUST to use for one month or more each Ubuntu release. We are not employee, but we can do something similar. What do you think ? Cheers Mariano ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Stan Shepherd <stan.shepherd414(a)gmail.com> Date: Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:26 PM Subject: [Pharo-project] Issue 1721: Refactoring appears to be broken in web dev image. e.g. OBClassNode(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #dynamicProtocols To: pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr NB this logs a particular walkback, but the whole area appears to be unworkable in the web dev image. Please could the maintainers click, right click, middle click on each part of refactoring browser, take each menu item, etc. This will be much quicker than logging one bug at a time. If this turns out to be the last one, my apologies in advance. Thanks. ...Stan VM: unix - i686 - linux-gnu - Pharo0.1 of 16 May 2008 [latest update: #10074] Image: PharoCore1.0rc1 [Latest update: #10502] pharo1.0-10502-rc1web09.12.2 Class browser used (if applicable): OR2PackageBrowser. OBClassNode(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #dynamicProtocols Receiver: OBClassNode<ShortIntegerArray> Arguments and temporary variables: aMessage: dynamicProtocols exception: MessageNotUnderstood: OBClassNode>>dynamicProtocols resumeValue: nil Receiver's instance variables: metaNode: Class #allCategory->AllMethodCategory #categories->MethodCategory #dy...etc... navigation: an O2DefaultEdgeNavigation theClass: ShortIntegerArray O2MetaEdge>>nodesForParent: Receiver: #dynamicProtocols->DynamicProtocols Arguments and temporary variables: aNode: OBClassNode<ShortIntegerArray> Receiver's instance variables: label: 'dynamicProtocols' selector: #dynamicProtocols metaNode: DynamicProtocols #methods->Method navigation: an O2DefaultEdgeNavigation isDropEdge: nil ... -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Issue-1721-Refactoring-appears-to-be-broken-in-web-dev… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo-beginner mailing list ?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

ok let us wait to get more feedback on the idea... Stef On Dec 30, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:29 PM, Johan Fabry <jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl> wrote: > > How do we subscribe? > > On 30 Dec 2009, at 14:09, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > > > My point is that some people may be bored by too technical discussions > > Miguel I agree on the number of list. We should check if there is > > enough people. > > @Adrian: the forum idea is nice but I do not why it did not work for > > Smalltalk. > > I went to the site you mentioned but I could not get how it works. > > > >> +1 I would create it. It is not more than 1 hour or so of work. > > 3min :) > > Yes, but after creating the list, I think you should also: > > - Send an ANN to this list, ESUG and even Squeak mailing lists. > - Add that information to http://www.pharo-project.org/community > - Add gmane and nabble bots to it > - Some people can post in their blogs about it > > Cheers, > > Mariano > > > > -- > Johan Fabry > jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry > PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

Dec. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo-beginner mailing list ?

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:29 PM, Johan Fabry <jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl> wrote: > > How do we subscribe? > > On 30 Dec 2009, at 14:09, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > > > My point is that some people may be bored by too technical discussions > > Miguel I agree on the number of list. We should check if there is > > enough people. > > @Adrian: the forum idea is nice but I do not why it did not work for > > Smalltalk. > > I went to the site you mentioned but I could not get how it works. > > > >> +1 I would create it. It is not more than 1 hour or so of work. > > 3min :) > Yes, but after creating the list, I think you should also: - Send an ANN to this list, ESUG and even Squeak mailing lists. - Add that information to http://www.pharo-project.org/community - Add gmane and nabble bots to it - Some people can post in their blogs about it Cheers, Mariano > > -- > Johan Fabry > jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry<http://dcc.uchile.cl/%7Ejfabry> > PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

Dec. 30, 2009

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo-beginner mailing list ?

by Johan Fabry

How do we subscribe? On 30 Dec 2009, at 14:09, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > My point is that some people may be bored by too technical discussions > Miguel I agree on the number of list. We should check if there is > enough people. > @Adrian: the forum idea is nice but I do not why it did not work for > Smalltalk. > I went to the site you mentioned but I could not get how it works. > >> +1 I would create it. It is not more than 1 hour or so of work. > 3min :) -- Johan Fabry jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

Dec. 30, 2009