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Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] IWST 2010 Call for Papers

by Mariano Martinez Peck

One of the reasons I created smalltalk-research(a)googlegroups.com was exactly not having to do this ;) On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 5:29 AM, Michael Haupt <mhaupt(a)gmail.com> wrote: > * Apologies for multiple copies. * > > Call for Papers > > International Workshop on Smalltalk Technologies (IWST) 2010 > > co-located with European Smalltalk User Group Conference (ESUG) > Barcelona, Spain, September 11-17, 2010 > > > ** Description > > The goal of the IWST workshop series is to create and foster a forum > around advances or experience in Smalltalk. We welcome contributions > on all aspects, theoretical as well as practical, of Smalltalk-related > topics. > > There are two possible kinds of submissions, which must be in ACM SIGPLAN > style: > > * Research papers (up to 10 pages). Submissions in this category will > be rigorously reviewed, and accepted papers will be published in the > ACM Digital Library (ACM SIGPLAN has approved, the final ACM approval > is pending). > > * Demonstration papers (up to 4 pages). Submissions in this category > will not be published in the ACM Digital Library, but will be > available for download from the workshop web page. > > > ** Submission and Reviewing Process > > The EasyChair submission web site is at > http://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=iwst10. > > Authors will be given the opportunity to comment on reviewers' work by > providing feedback on the reviews. For this purpose, a questionnaire > will be sent to authors. Their answers will be evaluated anonymously, > and feedback will be handed on to reviewers. > > > ** Important Dates > > Submission: May 14, 2010 (Samoa time) > Feedback: June 28, 2010 > ESUG Early Registration Deadline: July 9, 2010 > Workshop: September 12, 2010, Barcelona, Spain > > > ** Programme Committee > > Co-Chairs: > Michael Haupt, Hasso-Plattner-Institut, University of Potsdam, Germany > Robert Hirschfeld, Hasso-Plattner-Institut, University of Potsdam, Germany > > PC Members: > Gabriela Arevalo, Universidad Nacional de La Plata, Argentina > Johannes Brauer, NORDAKADEMIE, Germany > Johan Brichau, UniversitÃ© catholique de Louvain, Belgium > Marcus Denker, INRIA Lille - Nord Europe, France > Theo D'Hondt, Vrije Universiteit Brussel, Belgium > StÃ©phane Ducasse, INRIA Lille - Nord Europe, France > James Foster, GemStone Systems, Inc., USA > Andy Kellens, Vrije Universiteit Brussel, Belgium > Andreas Raab, Teleplace Inc., USA > Lukas Renggli, Software Composition Group (SCG), University of Bern, > Switzerland > Randal L. Schwartz, Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. > Dave Ungar, IBM Research > >

March 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] squeakToUTF-8 and related?

by Nicolas Cellier

2010/3/30 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name>: > > On 29.03.2010, at 11:52, Nicolas Cellier wrote: > > 2010/3/29 Henrik Johansen <henrik.s.johansen(a)veloxit.no>: > > On Mar 29, 2010, at 11:16 30AM, Nicolas Cellier wrote: > > I presume that under the idiom "latin1" you refer to code page 1252 > > rather than iso8859-L1, right ? > > Nicolas > > Good question :) > > What IS the presumed internal encoding of Bytestrings in Squeak? > > That's the one I meant, I merely assumed it was latin1 seeing as how the > text converter refers to it as such. > > Personally I thought it was iso8859-L1, seeing as the bytestring to unicode > conversion does a simple shift of chars > 127 to the 0080 - 00FF range. > > Cheers, > > Henry > > > From what I understood, CP1252 is Microsoft "latin1" and use codes 128 to > 159. > ISO8859-L1 match fisrt 256 codes of unicode latin-1 and has codes 128 > to 159 unused. > You know, when Microsoft "uses" a standard, it's always a better standard ;) > > I have nothing against CP1252, it's an optimization which avoid > wasting 32 cheap codes. > But I'm not sure about various compatibility issues in/with the > external world... > > If you know how to easily assure that > (String with: (Character value: (Integer readFrom: '20AC' base: 16))) > =Â (String with: (Character value: (Integer readFrom: '80' base: 16))) > than you might be safe. By using Windows-1252 code points aren't unique > anymore. Every code point in the range 0x80 - 0x9F exists somewhere else, > too. So my estimation would be that it will cause more trouble than it might > solve. > Agree. I see two different problems here: 1) absence of explicit encoding information in external data 2) existence of a canonical representation which can be easily compared... Generalization of UTF8 should solve 1 (slowly with lot of inertia), then we can simply assume implicit=UTF8. Unicode could solve 2... ...Well, as long as diacriticals are ignored. To me Unicode still has problems with: (String with: 16r61 asCharacter with: 16r0302 asCharacter) = (String with: 16rE2 asCharacter) Nicolas > Squeak clearly uses CP1252. > For Pharo, there might be a mix of the two since Sophie-like > refactorings. Surely what John was refering to. > > In pharo the 20AC string gives me a euro sign but the 80 hex one prints a > rectangle which is _a_ interpretation of '?' ;) > Norbert > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

March 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] TeaTime (Re: nebraska?)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Good I like simple things. I'm really curious to learn it. So in a nutshell what is the idea of the synchronisation? How do do know which objects changed in an image? Stef On Mar 30, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Andreas Raab wrote: > On 3/20/2010 4:43 PM, Michael Rueger wrote: >> On 3/20/10 4:35 PM, Marcus Denker wrote: >>>> So why does everyone ignore TeaTime? I admit I don't understand the >>>> internals, but it obviously *looks* like it could be the basis of >>>> Nebraska (or any other P2P solution). >>>> >>> Can you point me to a real good publication about it? I mean, a >>> *real* one? >> >> AFAIK TeaTime never happened but they (Croquet/Cobalt) switched to some >> multiplayer game like sync scheme (at least the poor me understood when >> I saw the implementation ;-) ). > > Actually we didn't. TeaTime (as conceived by David Reed) consisted of two separate ideas, namely that of a world synchronization protocol and that of a P2P network protocol. When David Smith and I implemented the version we shipped in Hedgehog we dropped the P2P network protocol part and only concentrated on the synchronization aspect which resulted in *major* simplifications. > > That turned out to be a real win because the original design required N^2 connections for N participants with the obvious resulting problems if you get to larger numbers of users (today we can run sessions in Teleplace with 250+ active participants). David and I originally replaced the P2P communication with a single central entity (the router) but today this is actually a router overlay network that gives us theoretical scalability to 10,000s of users in the same space (unfortunately the client currently cannot cope with the rendering of all the stuff today at scales > 250). > > Anyway. The important part is that due to the practical connectivity restrictions for most users (bandwidth, latency, firewalls) running purely P2P is really stupid. You need a fixed point outside the firewall that you connect to via TCP through proxy and whatever BS the local environment requires and from that fixed point it goes into the overlay network. This has many additional advantages that I won't elaborate on here. > > As for publications, I don't know what amounts for a "real" publication in your eyes Marcus but considering that neither David nor myself are measured by number or quality of our publications you'll have to do with the publications listed at http://opencroquet.org/index.php/Overview I would in particular recommend the Hedgehog architecture presentation at http://opencroquet.org/images/e/ee/2005_Hedgehog_Architecture.pdf which is from the talk David and I gave at the OOPSLA workshop. As you look at the presentation read the documentation at http://opencroquet.org/index.php/Croquet_SDK which talks about the stuff in the slides. > > Coincidentally, I am toying regularly with the idea of using an even more simplified version of TeaTime to do something like Nebraska. Might get around to it one of these days, it's actually straightforward. > > BTW, it's a misconception to think TeaTime is something complicated. Complicated things don't work. Simple things do. TeaTime is actually VERY simple. That's why it works. > > Cheers, > - Andreas > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] squeakToUTF-8 and related?

by Norbert Hartl

On 29.03.2010, at 11:52, Nicolas Cellier wrote: > 2010/3/29 Henrik Johansen <henrik.s.johansen(a)veloxit.no>: >> >> On Mar 29, 2010, at 11:16 30AM, Nicolas Cellier wrote: >> >>> I presume that under the idiom "latin1" you refer to code page 1252 >>> rather than iso8859-L1, right ? >>> >>> Nicolas >> Good question :) >> What IS the presumed internal encoding of Bytestrings in Squeak? >> That's the one I meant, I merely assumed it was latin1 seeing as how the text converter refers to it as such. >> Personally I thought it was iso8859-L1, seeing as the bytestring to unicode conversion does a simple shift of chars > 127 to the 0080 - 00FF range. >> >> Cheers, >> Henry >> > > From what I understood, CP1252 is Microsoft "latin1" and use codes 128 to 159. > ISO8859-L1 match fisrt 256 codes of unicode latin-1 and has codes 128 > to 159 unused. > You know, when Microsoft "uses" a standard, it's always a better standard ;) > > I have nothing against CP1252, it's an optimization which avoid > wasting 32 cheap codes. > But I'm not sure about various compatibility issues in/with the > external world... > If you know how to easily assure that (String with: (Character value: (Integer readFrom: '20AC' base: 16))) = (String with: (Character value: (Integer readFrom: '80' base: 16))) than you might be safe. By using Windows-1252 code points aren't unique anymore. Every code point in the range 0x80 - 0x9F exists somewhere else, too. So my estimation would be that it will cause more trouble than it might solve. > Squeak clearly uses CP1252. > For Pharo, there might be a mix of the two since Sophie-like > refactorings. Surely what John was refering to. In pharo the 20AC string gives me a euro sign but the 80 hex one prints a rectangle which is _a_ interpretation of '?' ;) Norbert >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

by Andreas Raab

On 3/30/2010 1:08 AM, Adrian Lienhard wrote: > I don't understand why we couldn't add a non-GCC compiled VM on the website. The VM will still be compilable with GCC, e.g., for Linux distros. Heck, we could even add both a GCC and a non-GCC compiled VM on the website and everybody can decide which one to use. Here is a free bit of advice: Run some actual application benchmarks first. Doubling an artificial micro benchmark may have no impact whatsoever on application performance. For our uses, we found that the Intel compiler on Macs gave us 10% in app performance which is not bad at all for just switching the compiler but the microbenchmarks were actually worse than those of a GNUified interpreter compiled with gcc. YMMV. Measure it before committing to it. Cheers, - Andreas > On Mar 30, 2010, at 09:34 , laurent laffont wrote: > >> The problem with this option is we can't package it on Linux distros ... as >> open source software, I prefer that the VM downloadable on pharo website is >> a GCC (or other OSS compiler) compiled one. >> >> Laurent Laffont >> >> >> 2010/3/30 Henrik Johansen<henrik.s.johansen-HH7AfKdThi1uMpJDpNschA(a)public.gmane.org> >> >>> >>> What's the yearly costs for the Intel Compiler license? >>> >>> Adrian >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project-bM+ny+RY8h+a+bCvCPl5/gCzwTLBPCX0(a)public.gmane.org >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >>> According to the website, 600$ for a single-user license on a single >>> platform, 240$ for yearly support renewal. >>> Other licensing options you have to contact them for pricing. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Henry >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> Pharo-project-bM+ny+RY8h+a+bCvCPl5/gCzwTLBPCX0(a)public.gmane.org >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project-bM+ny+RY8h+a+bCvCPl5/gCzwTLBPCX0(a)public.gmane.org >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 30, 2010

[Pharo-project] IWST 2010 Call for Papers

by Michael Haupt

* Apologies for multiple copies. * Call for Papers International Workshop on Smalltalk Technologies (IWST) 2010 co-located with European Smalltalk User Group Conference (ESUG) Barcelona, Spain, September 11-17, 2010 ** Description The goal of the IWST workshop series is to create and foster a forum around advances or experience in Smalltalk. We welcome contributions on all aspects, theoretical as well as practical, of Smalltalk-related topics. There are two possible kinds of submissions, which must be in ACM SIGPLAN style: * Research papers (up to 10 pages). Submissions in this category will be rigorously reviewed, and accepted papers will be published in the ACM Digital Library (ACM SIGPLAN has approved, the final ACM approval is pending). * Demonstration papers (up to 4 pages). Submissions in this category will not be published in the ACM Digital Library, but will be available for download from the workshop web page. ** Submission and Reviewing Process The EasyChair submission web site is at http://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=iwst10. Authors will be given the opportunity to comment on reviewers' work by providing feedback on the reviews. For this purpose, a questionnaire will be sent to authors. Their answers will be evaluated anonymously, and feedback will be handed on to reviewers. ** Important Dates Submission: May 14, 2010 (Samoa time) Feedback: June 28, 2010 ESUG Early Registration Deadline: July 9, 2010 Workshop: September 12, 2010, Barcelona, Spain ** Programme Committee Co-Chairs: Michael Haupt, Hasso-Plattner-Institut, University of Potsdam, Germany Robert Hirschfeld, Hasso-Plattner-Institut, University of Potsdam, Germany PC Members: Gabriela Arevalo, Universidad Nacional de La Plata, Argentina Johannes Brauer, NORDAKADEMIE, Germany Johan Brichau, UniversitÃ© catholique de Louvain, Belgium Marcus Denker, INRIA Lille - Nord Europe, France Theo D'Hondt, Vrije Universiteit Brussel, Belgium StÃ©phane Ducasse, INRIA Lille - Nord Europe, France James Foster, GemStone Systems, Inc., USA Andy Kellens, Vrije Universiteit Brussel, Belgium Andreas Raab, Teleplace Inc., USA Lukas Renggli, Software Composition Group (SCG), University of Bern, Switzerland Randal L. Schwartz, Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. Dave Ungar, IBM Research

March 30, 2010

[Pharo-project] TeaTime (Re: nebraska?)

by Andreas Raab

On 3/20/2010 4:43 PM, Michael Rueger wrote: > On 3/20/10 4:35 PM, Marcus Denker wrote: >>> So why does everyone ignore TeaTime? I admit I don't understand the >>> internals, but it obviously *looks* like it could be the basis of >>> Nebraska (or any other P2P solution). >>> >> Can you point me to a real good publication about it? I mean, a >> *real* one? > > AFAIK TeaTime never happened but they (Croquet/Cobalt) switched to some > multiplayer game like sync scheme (at least the poor me understood when > I saw the implementation ;-) ). Actually we didn't. TeaTime (as conceived by David Reed) consisted of two separate ideas, namely that of a world synchronization protocol and that of a P2P network protocol. When David Smith and I implemented the version we shipped in Hedgehog we dropped the P2P network protocol part and only concentrated on the synchronization aspect which resulted in *major* simplifications. That turned out to be a real win because the original design required N^2 connections for N participants with the obvious resulting problems if you get to larger numbers of users (today we can run sessions in Teleplace with 250+ active participants). David and I originally replaced the P2P communication with a single central entity (the router) but today this is actually a router overlay network that gives us theoretical scalability to 10,000s of users in the same space (unfortunately the client currently cannot cope with the rendering of all the stuff today at scales > 250). Anyway. The important part is that due to the practical connectivity restrictions for most users (bandwidth, latency, firewalls) running purely P2P is really stupid. You need a fixed point outside the firewall that you connect to via TCP through proxy and whatever BS the local environment requires and from that fixed point it goes into the overlay network. This has many additional advantages that I won't elaborate on here. As for publications, I don't know what amounts for a "real" publication in your eyes Marcus but considering that neither David nor myself are measured by number or quality of our publications you'll have to do with the publications listed at http://opencroquet.org/index.php/Overview I would in particular recommend the Hedgehog architecture presentation at http://opencroquet.org/images/e/ee/2005_Hedgehog_Architecture.pdf which is from the talk David and I gave at the OOPSLA workshop. As you look at the presentation read the documentation at http://opencroquet.org/index.php/Croquet_SDK which talks about the stuff in the slides. Coincidentally, I am toying regularly with the idea of using an even more simplified version of TeaTime to do something like Nebraska. Might get around to it one of these days, it's actually straightforward. BTW, it's a misconception to think TeaTime is something complicated. Complicated things don't work. Simple things do. TeaTime is actually VERY simple. That's why it works. Cheers, - Andreas

March 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

by Serge Stinckwich

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Adrian Lienhard <adi(a)netstyle.ch> wrote: > I don't understand why we couldn't add a non-GCC compiled VM on the website. The VM will still be compilable with GCC, e.g., for Linux distros. Heck, we could even add both a GCC and a non-GCC compiled VM on the website and everybody can decide which one to use. Yes you could put both on the web site, but all the Linux distro will use GCC to recompile. -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://doesnotunderstand.org/

March 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Squeak VM+FT2Plugin, all Pharo 1.0 rc3 tests green

by Adrian Lienhard

I don't understand why we couldn't add a non-GCC compiled VM on the website. The VM will still be compilable with GCC, e.g., for Linux distros. Heck, we could even add both a GCC and a non-GCC compiled VM on the website and everybody can decide which one to use. Cheers, Adrian On Mar 30, 2010, at 09:34 , laurent laffont wrote: > The problem with this option is we can't package it on Linux distros ... as > open source software, I prefer that the VM downloadable on pharo website is > a GCC (or other OSS compiler) compiled one. > > Laurent Laffont > > > 2010/3/30 Henrik Johansen <henrik.s.johansen(a)veloxit.no> > >> >> What's the yearly costs for the Intel Compiler license? >> >> Adrian >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> According to the website, 600$ for a single-user license on a single >> platform, 240$ for yearly support renewal. >> Other licensing options you have to contact them for pricing. >> >> Cheers, >> Henry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

March 30, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] The Windows VM

by Henrik Johansen

On Mar 30, 2010, at 9:53 35AM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 9:07 PM, GermÃ¡n Arduino <garduino(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Sorry, correct me if I'm wrong, but Pharo don't have its own Win VM right? > > Then if Pharo relies on the Squeak Windows VM I think that a good > policy is use the latest. > > > No, I don't think so. I don't know who did it, but at the end it is a squeak VM. I mean, the sources come from svn or vmmaker or both, but there is no fork (maybe i am wrong). Ok, we changed the splash picture and the name. > > Does someone know? No forking, just custom .rc files to "rebrand" it. Cheers, Henry

March 30, 2010