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Re: [Pharo-project] [OT] Re: Why Smalltalk ? Which Smalltalk ?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi levente > What I wanted to show is that the release of Pharo 1.0 was not urgent at all (DW and RW are both _more than a year_) until Squeak 4.1 came out. After the release of Squeak 4.1, Pharo 1.0 and 1.1 was released ASAP. since you want real facts, I can tell you that being the responsible with marcus of release dates we do not take into account squeak releases and that we do not release as soon as possible. So I can ensure you that this is a false facts. We do not take that into account. You can believe us or not this is not that important. I just say it for the record. Now what we did was learning: 1.0 was too long mainly the beta phase because we were looking for a copy and paste bug that was randomly showing up. In such a case beta at the end was more "this is public but missing one bug fix". But since you like numbers you can count they way you want. After we are looking at logical moment to stop so that people can sync their applications. But there is always the tension with new features getting ready. We discuss milestones topics in the pharo sprint which was hold in the same time than WCRE. And we try to be features oriented. For example, we decided not to open 1.3 when 1.2 got beta and to focus on not integrating easy bug fixes to get stability. In 1.1 it was different since lot of fixes were accumulating. Stef

Dec. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] big ui decisions

by Sean P. DeNigris

Chip Nowacek wrote: > > A sexy, Smalltalk Lively-Kernel. I'm still trying to get Clamato to work. > I was just wishing for this yesterday! Awesome to know there's interest and work being done here. Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/big-ui-decisions-tp3160359p3162103.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] big ui decisions

by Sean P. DeNigris

Chip Nowacek wrote: > >>did you see nextPlan? >>Because they generate svg too? > > I haven't seen it yet. I will search it/them out. > It was very impressive. The video of the ESUG presentation is at http://esug2010.objectfusion.fr/ Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/big-ui-decisions-tp3160359p3162100.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [OT] Re: Why Smalltalk ? Which Smalltalk ?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Dec 23, 2010, at 1:23 PM, Alexander LazareviÄ wrote: > StÃ©phane, > > I don't perceived Leventes email to be aggressive at all (in contrast to yours), but only to correct some false assumptions providing hard facts. If the Pharo community honestly believes that it is an open and friendly community, then there should be no problem with posts to the this mailinglist trying to provide some facts and not chiming in to any chorus. ok alexander now I was not specifically aggressive but you seem to think I did. Strange. So this means that we cannot even have mild statements about MY own past. Funny how dogma can work. > Just let me say that it doesn't serve Pharo well to say that something else lacks some features or is bad in many ways. I did not say anything special but just put in perspective things. I have much more fun ideas about how to measure progress like the amount of money spent on projects but this requires data that we cannot find on the web :) > That won't make Pharo any better. Emphasize on the great things Pharo has to offer by itself (and I believe that there are many). I think this would better suit Pharos vision. Now I would like to keep this mailing list out of such discussion and yes if people wants to show facts that squeak is faster, better, move faster.... they can send them here but why not sending them in the squeak mailing-lists? I remember people telling to miguel that he was a troll just because he was arguing about process on squeak-dev. So? > BTW, thanks Levente for the dates. There should be definitely some google timeline [1] where we could maintain the smalltalk milestones of the past. You see milestones are just numbers. :) > Hi levente, > > after your mails some people sent me private mails because they did not feel well. They wondered why people were sending mails against pharo in this mailing-list while they do not send aggressive mails in squeak. > I can understand them. Now I think that this is ok that you send the mails you want, > you can send your feelings here, even if this is not that positive :). Kicks in the ass is always a feedback and we can make progress. > I always appreciated your benchmarks and precise remarks. I liked (and I told you publicly) that you always replied to my mails about your changes in squeak. I can understand your frustration (I have been there for years trying to move squeak - again we did not do pharo for an ego problem - I cannot tell the number of students that looked at me like I was an idiot to use a system with all the colors and messy menus). We do pharo to build an ecosystem where people can expand, create cool ideas and make money to live from them. > What is wrong with that? > > Now do not play pharo against squeak, it will not work on the mid term and this is not fun for everybody. I would love that Squeak builds its own real vision: for example been a real multimedia platform. We could have a lot of fun. Now I think that except a miracle this will not happen: after 10 years, squeak failed to go to the next level - I wanted everything and more Cairo, Zoomable interface, crazy ideas and all the rest - I was a big fan of Sophie (I can tell you that I was a bit fucked by some bulgarian people on that level trying to support Squeak and sophie there) and other impara tools. Now impara failed to make squeak sexy and them the center of the universe - They could have but may be they did not have the vision to be something else than > building tools for alan. Anyway this is life. Now I wonder why you get stuck in Squeak you are welcome in Pharo. May be Squeak fits your vision and spirit but I do not understand what we are doing wrong so that you are mad against us. > > Stef >

Dec. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Issue 3271 in pharo: r isLiteralSymbol: #<= is broken

by Guillermo Polito

I just ran Compiler tests. On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 7:20 AM, <pharo(a)googlecode.com> wrote: > > Comment #3 on issue 3271 by stephane.ducasse: r isLiteralSymbol: #<= is > broken > > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=3271 > > Tx guillermo. > Did you run all the tests? > > >

Dec. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [OT] Re: Why Smalltalk ? Which Smalltalk ?

by Alexander LazareviÄ

StÃ©phane, I don't perceived Leventes email to be aggressive at all (in contrast to yours), but only to correct some false assumptions providing hard facts. If the Pharo community honestly believes that it is an open and friendly community, then there should be no problem with posts to the this mailinglist trying to provide some facts and not chiming in to any chorus. Just let me say that it doesn't serve Pharo well to say that something else lacks some features or is bad in many ways. That won't make Pharo any better. Emphasize on the great things Pharo has to offer by itself (and I believe that there are many). I think this would better suit Pharos vision. BTW, thanks Levente for the dates. There should be definitely some google timeline [1] where we could maintain the smalltalk milestones of the past. Jingle, Alex [1] Example http://simile-widgets.googlecode.com/svn/timeline/tags/latest/src/webapp/ex… 2010/12/22 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > Hi levente, > > after your mails some people sent me private mails because they did not > feel well. They wondered why people were sending mails against pharo in this > mailing-list while they do not send aggressive mails in squeak. > I can understand them. Now I think that this is ok that you send the mails > you want, > you can send your feelings here, even if this is not that positive :). > Kicks in the ass is always a feedback and we can make progress. > I always appreciated your benchmarks and precise remarks. I liked (and I > told you publicly) that you always replied to my mails about your changes in > squeak. I can understand your frustration (I have been there for years > trying to move squeak - again we did not do pharo for an ego problem - I > cannot tell the number of students that looked at me like I was an idiot to > use a system with all the colors and messy menus). We do pharo to build an > ecosystem where people can expand, create cool ideas and make money to live > from them. > What is wrong with that? > > Now do not play pharo against squeak, it will not work on the mid term and > this is not fun for everybody. I would love that Squeak builds its own real > vision: for example been a real multimedia platform. We could have a lot of > fun. Now I think that except a miracle this will not happen: after 10 years, > squeak failed to go to the next level - I wanted everything and more Cairo, > Zoomable interface, crazy ideas and all the rest - I was a big fan of Sophie > (I can tell you that I was a bit fucked by some bulgarian people on that > level trying to support Squeak and sophie there) and other impara tools. Now > impara failed to make squeak sexy and them the center of the universe - They > could have but may be they did not have the vision to be something else than > building tools for alan. Anyway this is life. Now I wonder why you get > stuck in Squeak you are welcome in Pharo. May be Squeak fits your vision and > spirit but I do not understand what we are doing wrong so that you are mad > against us. > > Stef >

Dec. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo 2010 - Thank you!

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>>> Modestly I try to help in the areas I can and in the time I have and >>> want to say here a big big thanks to a lot of people working hard and >>> (as Stef said) not only in the cool part of development but also on >>> more boring (but needed stuff) as admin, doc, etc. >>> >>> Thank you all dear fellow of Pharo/Seaside/etc community by the effort >>> put in this work and for the help I received each time I needed it. >>> And also a BIG thanks to ESUG by the continuos effort to help in the >>> Smalltalk advance. >>> >>> Now we must go for more in 2011, for example in develop the next big >>> success on the startups market, this one with Pharo :) >> >> do you think that a good open-source ERP in Smalltalk would help you? >> >> > > Is not exactly in what I'm thinking but I'm sure that is a need in lot > of small and medium companies here. > > Is a new Pharo project? There is SmallErp or the project of stefan eggermont. This is just that I believe that issue bills, reports and managing stock is somehow also a large part of business. Stef

Dec. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo 2010 - Thank you!

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 22 Dec 2010, at 20:37, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > Thanks a ***lot***. You're welcome. You and everybody else have every reason to be proud of all the good work done. > We have to do a party close to the border (well we are on the border already) and meet > This should be a resolution for 2011. I am sure we'll meet somewhere in 2011. I am looking forward to it. Sven

Dec. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] marketing or not?

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Dec 23, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Chip Nowacek wrote: > > If it's not just marketing, what, in your view, might be the ramifications? Could we (people in this community) make business around that. I mean lot of communitees are good at creating buzz and smalltalkers in general not that much. Stef > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/marketing-or-not-tp3161726p3161755.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

Dec. 23, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo 2010 - Thank you!

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

2010/12/23 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > > On Dec 23, 2010, at 1:14 AM, GermÃ¡n Arduino wrote: > >> Ey, I want join also to the feelings of Sven and Laurent. >> >> I'm in Smalltalk from year 2000 aproximately but only in the last >> years I'm achieving one of my goals that is work 100% in Smalltalk in >> my small entrepreneurship dream called Arduino Software. A big part of >> this history is thanks to Pharo and Seaside and lot of other cool >> stuff on squeaksource. >> >> I think that the business orientation of Pharo was a key factor to >> caught my attention and, even when I also love Squeak and its people >> (a lot of us are on both sides trying to help) I have now in Pharo the >> tools to fight in the commercial arena. > > excellent news. I'm happy for you. > Thanks! >> >> Modestly I try to help in the areas I can and in the time I have and >> want to say here a big big thanks to a lot of people working hard and >> (as Stef said) not only in the cool part of development but also on >> more boring (but needed stuff) as admin, doc, etc. >> >> Thank you all dear fellow of Pharo/Seaside/etc community by the effort >> put in this work and for the help I received each time I needed it. >> And also a BIG thanks to ESUG by the continuos effort to help in the >> Smalltalk advance. >> >> Now we must go for more in 2011, for example in develop the next big >> success on the startups market, this one with Pharo :) > > do you think that a good open-source ERP in Smalltalk would help you? > > Is not exactly in what I'm thinking but I'm sure that is a need in lot of small and medium companies here. Is a new Pharo project?

Dec. 23, 2010