- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] realized and learned something today :)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Dec 31, 2010, at 2:33 AM, csrabak(a)bol.com.br wrote: > Em 30/12/2010 19:56, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > escreveu: > >> Hi guys >> I think that over the years I (but also many of you, I know) tried >> to expose newbies to smalltalk or our culture. And often we get bad >> reactions, bad windows, bad colors, slow, why not in svn, ..... I > > Those specific reactions are more likely to be about Squeak of Pharo > than Smalltalk in general, isn't? why do you think that VW UI is appealing or that the class creation in VW is trivial? >> think that showing Smalltalk to newbies is the best we can do to >> ourselves, not really to attract new people but also to get a large >> kick in the %^&* because most of the time students are not stupid, >> they are exposed to other technos. > > Yes. They make an excellent litmus test without the risks of expending > lots of money in the 'launching of product' which can become an Edsel > of the programming languages... > >> So each time we believe we want >> to show them something cool and they do not really consider it as >> cool as we believe, we can of course think that they are idiot (some >> of them are) but most of the time we can also think that may be we >> stayed too long in our little boxes and the world moved (interfaced >> well with c, fast, cool frameworks, has cool tools, processes >> (integration...), cool UIs, web stuff.....). > > Indeed. > >> So each time we get >> down because we do not see the little flame opening in the yes of >> the others we can think hard and get from them what we missed. > > I believe this is the first step to get the best direction to follow. Not automatically this is not because people think that A is needed that it is needed but this is a good reality check. >> I really happy to get exposed to student acid tests, this is a >> valuable feedback and I wanted to share that with you. > > Stef, now comes the rub: do you think it is possible to systematize > the lessons learned and post a summary for us here? Not really I do not record them but - headless - good ui - not 20 tools to do the same but different - github/make to build the vm - decent integration tools - not spaghetti code (you know Morph with just 800 methods show up like a ugly class in Quality lectures) - ... > > Perhaps we should open a specific Wiki page on this? > > Regards, > > -- > Cesar Rabak >

Dec. 31, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] WeakArray>>isFinalizationSupported

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Thanks john. Some people think that we are just total idiot and reality is somehow different and fun to look at it. Stef On Dec 31, 2010, at 1:57 AM, John McIntosh wrote: > Well the question as pointed out was does this vm support weak object > finalization? and since all closure vm support finalization, then > asking the question was mute, so it was ditched. Sophie from the 2003 > era had to ask. > > > On 12/30/10, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: >> Hopefully that can eventually be said as "backward compatibility with good >> stuff is a priority for Pharo." Moving targets are perhaps best left >> moving for now. >> >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Levente Uzonyi >> [leves(a)elte.hu] >> Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 6:13 PM >> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] WeakArray>>isFinalizationSupported >> >> (or so) which is unrelated. The method was removed during a "cleanup". And >> as you know, backwards compatibility is not a priority for Pharo. >> >> >> Levente >> >> >> > > > -- > =========================================================================== > John M. McIntosh <johnmci(a)smalltalkconsulting.com> > Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com > =========================================================================== >

Dec. 31, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] [Vm-dev] new Cog VMs

by Stanislav Paskalev

Hi Eliot, Thanks for the new version! And here's the first bug report, reproducible :) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17707726/image.tar.xz Using this image (pharo 1.1.1 from Lukas' hudson with omnibrowser & friends & seaside loaded, pharov10.sources) - opening the settings from the world menu crashes the VM. The output is named 'out1' in the same archive. Regards, Stanislav Paskalev On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 4:02 AM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi All, > Â Â Â I've released a new version of Cog that has a substantially improved code generator along the lines of Peter Deutsch's HPS (VisualWorks) and various of Ian Piumarta's VMs. Â These all use a simple tecnique to identify constant references in bytecode and to support a register-based calling convention. Â While this does produce faster code it tends to accelerate low-level code much more than high-level code as you can see by the following benchmarks: > SimpleStackBasedCogit: [1 to: 100000000 do: [:i|]] timeToRun 691 > StackToRegisterMappingCogit: [1 to: 100000000 do: [:i|]] timeToRun 192 > 192 - 691 / 6.91 -72% > SimpleStackBasedCogit: 0 tinyBenchmarks '753495217 bytecodes/sec; 64769127 sends/sec' > StackToRegisterMappingCogit: 0 tinyBenchmarks '931756141 bytecodes/sec; 128157989 sends/sec' > 931756141 - 753495217 / 7534952.17 -24% > 128157989 - 64769127 / 647691.27 -98% > SimpleStackBasedCogit: [Compiler recompileAll] timeToRun 47013 (no transcript > StackToRegisterMappingCogit: [Compiler recompileAll] timeToRun 43406 (no transcript) > 43406 - 47013 / 470.13 -7.67234594686576 > The status of this code is essentially beta. Â The test suite runs the same on the new code generator as on the old, but I think there are still bugs because I get the occasional transient error. Â I am therefore very interested in any reproducible errors you can find. > The VMs (http://www.mirandabanda.org/files/Cog/VM/VM.r2334/) contain a few other important changes: > - a bug fix to bytecode<->native pc mappng that produced incorrect results for methods containing blocks with ^-returns in them. Â One symptom is incorrect highlighting of the pc in the debugger, althoguh symptoms could be much serious. > - jitting interpreted methods on backward branches. Â Currently any interpreted method that performs more than 20 backward branches will be considered for JIT compilation and if it is suitable (default, <= 60 literals) will be compiled to native code. > - new callback support. Â I need to commit some changes to the Alien package to provide access to this but essentially the VM's callback support is now able to be ported to architectures with register-based calling conventions (ARM, PowerPC, SPARC etc). Â I'll try and get the Alien code released soon, and to back-port the changes to the standard VM before the end of the holiday. > One thing that is still /not/ fixed is the lack of a SoundPlugin on win32. Â Apologies. Â I'll try and get a fix for this before the end of the holidays too, but time might be too tight. Â There are other priorities such as harmonising the standard and Cog VMs for the 4.2 release. > best > Eliot > >

Dec. 31, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] UI for Shortcuts [WAS: Which Keymaps/Shortcuts do we want to have?]

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

looks cool now how can I sahre the same spec between two contexts? On Dec 31, 2010, at 12:28 AM, Guillermo Polito wrote: > Hi, I would like to discuss the UI for shortcuts and not to impose it :). So.. > > I was exploring the Idea of configuring the shortcuts in settings as the screenshot shows. What do you think of that? I don't think we need a separated tool to configure shortcuts. Settings look ok. > > Tomorrow I'll be putting a lot of effort on it ;). > > Cheers! > > On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 12:35 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I also would like a cmd+f: search anything... but that needs also an application (like algernon, which I'm currently not supporting anymore due time issues), not just a command :( > well, at least a cmd+f: search class would be fine :) > > +1 > It sound like a good project for someone with time and wanting to learn :) > > > El 27/12/2010, a las 5:38a.m., StÃ©phane Ducasse escribiÃ³: > > > I suggest that you define lists = > > > > simple eamcs bindings = > > ctral a ctrle > > > > Windows manipulation > > cmd W > > ... > > > > Your special binding > > > > > > Then you should have contexts > > World > > TextMorph > > Editor only > > > > (of course some list will only be able to be attached to a given object programmatically > > example: for botsinc I wanted specific binding to that morph class only -- but you do not care) > > > > then a config is > > > > (lists, lists) context > > (mybinding, lists, lists) context > > > > where , make sure that mybinding take precedence > > > > > > Does it make sense? > > > > Stef > > > > > > > > On Dec 27, 2010, at 2:37 AM, Guillermo Polito wrote: > > > >> What about something like the attach? > >> > >> On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Wow, haha, this is wonderful! So, putting some order: > >> > >> 1) shortcuts published as settings with a default? Will that be ok? This make me think the following: > >> - how to share shortcuts. Files? Keymapping used to use SIXX, but maybe it is not suitable for a light solution (I don't know much about SIXX) > >> - downloading a new image (or a new version of a package with shortcuts) could make us lose our own-defined shortcuts. > >> > >> 2) support for the following shortcuts: > >> > >> - a shortcut to bring up the wolrd menu. Not sure which shortcut. > >> - use ctrl + tab to switch between windows instead of cmd + arrows > >> - a shortcut for what it is (hidden) now with cmd + shift + click (list of opened windows) > >> - Shortcuts for opening standard tools: Workspace, Transcript, TestRunner, etc. > >> - Shortcut for duplicating a windows > >> - a shortcut for saving the image (cmd+ shoft + s ?) > >> - a shortcut for quitting the image with and without saving > >> - a shortcut to see a list of shortcuts > >> > >> I would like to add some more items to #2, and to define the keys that triggers them. > >> #1 seems to be of some work :). I'll work on it ASAP. > >> > >> Step by step, as Stef and Mostaza Merlo says :). > >> > >> Cheers! > >> Guille > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 7:18 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >> + 1 :) > >> And save them as configuration > >> > >>> On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>> my wishlist: > >>> > >>> - a shortcut to see all available shortcuts and change them > >>> > >>> + a lot > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> <PharoScreenshot.2.png> > > > > > > > > > <shortcuts.png>

Dec. 31, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] realized and learned something today :)

by Geert Claes

I reckon Pharo has already addressed some of the "bad windows, bad colors, slow, why not in svn, ..... " complaints but it is a very very good idea to listen to what everyone (not just the old dudes: http://www.cafepress.com/redhillstrading.329889873) wants Pharo to be to set the roadmap :) http://forum.world.st/file/n3169180/olddude.jpg -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/realized-and-learned-something-today-tp3168835p316918… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 31, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] realized and learned something today :)

by Herve Verjus

Hello, interesting post here ;-) I also ask myself many times on such considerations. It seems to me students are not more stupid than before. But...may be programming languages are "just" no more an issue nor an important (and so exciting) debate to consider ? Like having a car students need oopl and frameworks to fit what they have to do. They probably are no more interested with the most beautifull car, the most powerful engine, cool things that make the flame up...because they just need to travel 3 km and the driving limitations are here and we speak about environment constraints, blabla. They just need an oopl as they need a car. When the car is out or because the environment is changing, they change and they really know they will have to change many times and that's it...they have to cope with such changing situation and may be most of them don't want to pay for exciting things they don't really need for long time...the same for oopl isn't it ? Then it is difficult to be convinced to investigate in a specific (and not fully integrated) techno in a changing world. But, that does not mean that cars designers, engineers, researchers, constructors are deprecated jobs. I am sure that car designers are not driven to deliver the best car, and I am also sure that some of the engineers, designers think about cool cars, car prototypes with exciting features even if such cool cars and prototypes will never succeed and/or will be never sold. So attracting new people may not be a so important issue (eumh)...but the idea behind pharo is that people continue to learn and progress in delivering and proposing cool things in a productive environment and that is a really attractive perspective. And pharo may probably influence future developments in other environments, frameworks, emerging future languages or/and dialects, etc. I am not sure that students are enthousiastics with the other technos they are obliged to use ! In fact they aren't. Herve On 30 dÃ©c. 2010, at 22:56, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Hi guys > > I think that over the years I (but also many of you, I know) tried to expose newbies to smalltalk or our culture. > And often we get bad reactions, bad windows, bad colors, slow, why not in svn, ..... > I think that showing Smalltalk to newbies is the best we can do to ourselves, not really to attract new people > but also to get a large kick in the %^&* because most of the time students are not stupid, they are exposed to > other technos. So each time we believe we want to show them something cool and they do not really > consider it as cool as we believe, we can of course think that they are idiot (some of them are) but > most of the time we can also think that may be we stayed too long in our little boxes and the world > moved (interfaced well with c, fast, cool frameworks, has cool tools, processes (integration...), cool UIs, web stuff.....). > So each time we get down because we do not see the little flame opening in the yes of the others > we can think hard and get from them what we missed. > > I really happy to get exposed to student acid tests, this is a valuable feedback and I wanted to share that with you. > > Stef >

Dec. 31, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] WeakArray>>isFinalizationSupported

by Sean P. DeNigris

John M McIntosh wrote: > > since all closure vm support finalization, then asking the question was > mute > Okay, so I will remove these unnecessary checks. Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/WeakArray-isFinalizationSupported-tp3168849p3169081.h… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 31, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] realized and learned something today :)

by Francisco Ortiz PeÃ±aloza

I couldn't agree more with you Stef, specially with "So each time we get down because we do not see the little flame opening in the eyes of the others we can think hard and get from them what we missed." Many times i try to explain or show some feature expecting that flame... that doesn't show up. Putting expectations on others is a a *double*-edged *weapon but *I'll try harder. Cheers, Francisco On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:33 PM, <csrabak(a)bol.com.br> wrote: > Em 30/12/2010 19:56, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > > escreveu: > > > Hi guys > > I think that over the years I (but also many of you, I know) tried > > to expose newbies to smalltalk or our culture. And often we get bad > > reactions, bad windows, bad colors, slow, why not in svn, ..... I > > Those specific reactions are more likely to be about Squeak of Pharo > than Smalltalk in general, isn't? > > > think that showing Smalltalk to newbies is the best we can do to > > ourselves, not really to attract new people but also to get a large > > kick in the %^&* because most of the time students are not stupid, > > they are exposed to other technos. > > Yes. They make an excellent litmus test without the risks of expending > lots of money in the 'launching of product' which can become an Edsel > of the programming languages... > > > So each time we believe we want > > to show them something cool and they do not really consider it as > > cool as we believe, we can of course think that they are idiot (some > > of them are) but most of the time we can also think that may be we > > stayed too long in our little boxes and the world moved (interfaced > > well with c, fast, cool frameworks, has cool tools, processes > > (integration...), cool UIs, web stuff.....). > > Indeed. > > > So each time we get > > down because we do not see the little flame opening in the yes of > > the others we can think hard and get from them what we missed. > > I believe this is the first step to get the best direction to follow. > > > I really happy to get exposed to student acid tests, this is a > > valuable feedback and I wanted to share that with you. > > Stef, now comes the rub: do you think it is possible to systematize > the lessons learned and post a summary for us here? > > Perhaps we should open a specific Wiki page on this? > > Regards, > > -- > Cesar Rabak > >

Dec. 31, 2010

[Pharo-project] new Cog VMs

by Eliot Miranda

Hi All, I've released a new version of Cog that has a substantially improved code generator along the lines of Peter Deutsch's HPS (VisualWorks) and various of Ian Piumarta's VMs. These all use a simple tecnique to identify constant references in bytecode and to support a register-based calling convention. While this does produce faster code it tends to accelerate low-level code much more than high-level code as you can see by the following benchmarks: SimpleStackBasedCogit: [1 to: 100000000 do: [:i|]] timeToRun 691 StackToRegisterMappingCogit: [1 to: 100000000 do: [:i|]] timeToRun 192 192 - 691 / 6.91 -72% SimpleStackBasedCogit: 0 tinyBenchmarks '753495217 bytecodes/sec; 64769127 sends/sec' StackToRegisterMappingCogit: 0 tinyBenchmarks '931756141 bytecodes/sec; 128157989 sends/sec' 931756141 - 753495217 / 7534952.17 -24% 128157989 - 64769127 / 647691.27 -98% SimpleStackBasedCogit: [Compiler recompileAll] timeToRun 47013 (no transcript StackToRegisterMappingCogit: [Compiler recompileAll] timeToRun 43406 (no transcript) 43406 - 47013 / 470.13 -7.67234594686576 The status of this code is essentially beta. The test suite runs the same on the new code generator as on the old, but I think there are still bugs because I get the occasional transient error. I am therefore very interested in any reproducible errors you can find. The VMs (http://www.mirandabanda.org/files/Cog/VM/VM.r2334/) contain a few other important changes: - a bug fix to bytecode<->native pc mappng that produced incorrect results for methods containing blocks with ^-returns in them. One symptom is incorrect highlighting of the pc in the debugger, althoguh symptoms could be much serious. - jitting interpreted methods on backward branches. Currently any interpreted method that performs more than 20 backward branches will be considered for JIT compilation and if it is suitable (default, <= 60 literals) will be compiled to native code. - new callback support. I need to commit some changes to the Alien package to provide access to this but essentially the VM's callback support is now able to be ported to architectures with register-based calling conventions (ARM, PowerPC, SPARC etc). I'll try and get the Alien code released soon, and to back-port the changes to the standard VM before the end of the holiday. One thing that is still /not/ fixed is the lack of a SoundPlugin on win32. Apologies. I'll try and get a fix for this before the end of the holidays too, but time might be too tight. There are other priorities such as harmonising the standard and Cog VMs for the 4.2 release. best Eliot

Dec. 31, 2010

Re: [Pharo-project] realized and learned something today :)

by csrabak＠bol.com.br

Em 30/12/2010 19:56, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > escreveu: > Hi guys > I think that over the years I (but also many of you, I know) tried > to expose newbies to smalltalk or our culture. And often we get bad > reactions, bad windows, bad colors, slow, why not in svn, ..... I Those specific reactions are more likely to be about Squeak of Pharo than Smalltalk in general, isn't? > think that showing Smalltalk to newbies is the best we can do to > ourselves, not really to attract new people but also to get a large > kick in the %^&* because most of the time students are not stupid, > they are exposed to other technos. Yes. They make an excellent litmus test without the risks of expending lots of money in the 'launching of product' which can become an Edsel of the programming languages... > So each time we believe we want > to show them something cool and they do not really consider it as > cool as we believe, we can of course think that they are idiot (some > of them are) but most of the time we can also think that may be we > stayed too long in our little boxes and the world moved (interfaced > well with c, fast, cool frameworks, has cool tools, processes > (integration...), cool UIs, web stuff.....). Indeed. > So each time we get > down because we do not see the little flame opening in the yes of > the others we can think hard and get from them what we missed. I believe this is the first step to get the best direction to follow. > I really happy to get exposed to student acid tests, this is a > valuable feedback and I wanted to share that with you. Stef, now comes the rub: do you think it is possible to systematize the lessons learned and post a summary for us here? Perhaps we should open a specific Wiki page on this? Regards, -- Cesar Rabak

Dec. 31, 2010