July 2021 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Zdc]SocketStream>>#openConnectionToHostNamed:port: no longer signals am exception on macOS

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Hi Pablo, Thank you, I will test this soon. Is there any chance that there were also network changes in the Linux VM ? Perhaps also related to "detecting exceptions and out-of-band data". We keep on struggling with https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/9565 where it seems that the same code runs fine on Pharo 7 and 8, while it seems to fail on Pharo 9. Sven > On 21 Jul 2021, at 13:06, tesonep(a)gmail.com wrote: > > I have done a new release with the fix for the socket connection. > It was an issue in the kqueue code in OSX. > It was wrongly detecting exceptions and out-of-band data. > Please if you can update the VM and test it should be working. > > Cheers > Pablo > > On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 1:13 PM Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: > Hi Pablo, > > yes - Sven is right on that it could be improved. Thanks for taking > care of this important topic. > > Cheers, > Torsten > > > Gesendet: Montag, 19. Juli 2021 um 11:46 Uhr > Von: "tesonep(a)gmail.com" <tesonep(a)gmail.com> > An: "Pharo Development List" <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> > Betreff: [Pharo-dev] Re: [Zdc]SocketStream>>#openConnectionToHostNamed:port: no longer signals am exception on macOS > Thanks, yes it is true, the version name is a mess. > We need to improve the version display. > I will take note of that and I will fix it. > > Cheers, > Pablo > > On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 11:08 AM Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > Hi Pablo, > > prometheus:2021-07-16 sven$ ./pharo --version > Pharo 9.0.0 built on Jul 6 2021 10:36:56 Compiler: 4.2.1 Compatible Apple LLVM 11.0.3 (clang-1103.0.32.29) > Built from: ea8a3bfc - Commit: ea8a3bfc - Date: 2021-07-06 10:23:13 +0200 > prometheus:2021-07-16 sven$ ./pharo Pharo.image printVersion > [version] 'Pharo9.0.0' 'Pharo-9.0.0+build.1532.sha.e58ef49051bf06cad56a2dda174b8e091a45d5df (64 Bit)' > prometheus:2021-07-16 sven$ ./pharo Pharo.image eval "(ZdcSocketStream openConnectionToHostNamed: 'localhost' port: 12335) nextPut: 0; close. #foo" > > I have said this before, but the VM version is incomprehensible for normal people, why can't it just be something like 10.1 like the rest of the world ? > > Also, for mere mortals it is impossible to find out if something changed about the VM, let alone what, and how that all relates to specific versions. > > I know that you guys have a lot of work, and we are very grateful for it, but this is how it looks from the outside. > > Thx, > > Sven > > > On 19 Jul 2021, at 10:56, tesonep(a)gmail.com wrote: > > > > Hi, > > with the new VM I could not reproduce it. I think it was related with the issue of the NetNameResolver. > > Which VM version are you using? > > > > Thanks > > > > On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 3:51 PM Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > It seems that the following consistently crashes a recent/latest Pharo 9 image/vm on macOS: > > > > (ZdcSocketStream openConnectionToHostNamed: 'localhost' port: 12335) nextPut: 0; close. > > > > Command line, you can try it as follows: > > > > $ ./pharo Pharo.image eval "(ZdcSocketStream openConnectionToHostNamed: 'localhost' port: 12335) nextPut: 0; close. #foo" > > > > You can replace ZdcSocketStream by SocketStream, same result. > > > > Before, trying to connect to a non-existing host:port resulted in a ConnectionTimedOut: Cannot connect to 127.0.0.1:12335. > > > > Now, the code just returns and the bad stream is then used as if it is OK, which results in a hard crash. > > > > Furthermore, there is no backtrace nor log. > > > > Sven > > > > > > -- > > Pablo Tesone. > > tesonep(a)gmail.com > > > -- > Pablo Tesone. > tesonep(a)gmail.com > > > -- > Pablo Tesone. > tesonep(a)gmail.com

July 21, 2021

Re: [Zdc]SocketStream>>#openConnectionToHostNamed:port: no longer signals am exception on macOS

by tesonep＠gmail.com

I have done a new release with the fix for the socket connection. It was an issue in the kqueue code in OSX. It was wrongly detecting exceptions and out-of-band data. Please if you can update the VM and test it should be working. Cheers Pablo On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 1:13 PM Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: > Hi Pablo, > > yes - Sven is right on that it could be improved. Thanks for taking > care of this important topic. > > Cheers, > Torsten > > > *Gesendet:* Montag, 19. Juli 2021 um 11:46 Uhr > *Von:* "tesonep(a)gmail.com" <tesonep(a)gmail.com> > *An:* "Pharo Development List" <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> > *Betreff:* [Pharo-dev] Re: > [Zdc]SocketStream>>#openConnectionToHostNamed:port: no longer signals am > exception on macOS > Thanks, yes it is true, the version name is a mess. > We need to improve the version display. > I will take note of that and I will fix it. > > Cheers, > Pablo > > On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 11:08 AM Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> > wrote: > >> Hi Pablo, >> >> prometheus:2021-07-16 sven$ ./pharo --version >> Pharo 9.0.0 built on Jul 6 2021 10:36:56 Compiler: 4.2.1 Compatible >> Apple LLVM 11.0.3 (clang-1103.0.32.29) >> Built from: ea8a3bfc - Commit: ea8a3bfc - Date: 2021-07-06 10:23:13 +0200 >> prometheus:2021-07-16 sven$ ./pharo Pharo.image printVersion >> [version] 'Pharo9.0.0' >> 'Pharo-9.0.0+build.1532.sha.e58ef49051bf06cad56a2dda174b8e091a45d5df (64 >> Bit)' >> prometheus:2021-07-16 sven$ ./pharo Pharo.image eval "(ZdcSocketStream >> openConnectionToHostNamed: 'localhost' port: 12335) nextPut: 0; close. #foo" >> >> I have said this before, but the VM version is incomprehensible for >> normal people, why can't it just be something like 10.1 like the rest of >> the world ? >> >> Also, for mere mortals it is impossible to find out if something changed >> about the VM, let alone what, and how that all relates to specific versions. >> >> I know that you guys have a lot of work, and we are very grateful for it, >> but this is how it looks from the outside. >> >> Thx, >> >> Sven >> >> > On 19 Jul 2021, at 10:56, tesonep(a)gmail.com wrote: >> > >> > Hi, >> > with the new VM I could not reproduce it. I think it was related >> with the issue of the NetNameResolver. >> > Which VM version are you using? >> > >> > Thanks >> > >> > On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 3:51 PM Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> >> wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > It seems that the following consistently crashes a recent/latest Pharo >> 9 image/vm on macOS: >> > >> > (ZdcSocketStream openConnectionToHostNamed: 'localhost' port: 12335) >> nextPut: 0; close. >> > >> > Command line, you can try it as follows: >> > >> > $ ./pharo Pharo.image eval "(ZdcSocketStream >> openConnectionToHostNamed: 'localhost' port: 12335) nextPut: 0; close. #foo" >> > >> > You can replace ZdcSocketStream by SocketStream, same result. >> > >> > Before, trying to connect to a non-existing host:port resulted in a >> ConnectionTimedOut: Cannot connect to 127.0.0.1:12335. >> > >> > Now, the code just returns and the bad stream is then used as if it is >> OK, which results in a hard crash. >> > >> > Furthermore, there is no backtrace nor log. >> > >> > Sven >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Pablo Tesone. >> > tesonep(a)gmail.com > > > > -- > Pablo Tesone. > tesonep(a)gmail.com > -- Pablo Tesone. tesonep(a)gmail.com

July 21, 2021

Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming

by Miloslav.Raus＠cuzk.cz

Ã ... as I pointed out there is need to feel butthurt ... Ouch, such a terrible typo. âthere is *no* needâ. In other news, thanks for all the hysteria, but no plang mailing list needs it; just many thanks for demonstrating exacly what it is thatâs not needed. From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou(a)kloum.io> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2021 12:18 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> Cc: RauÅ¡ Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming Bullshit bullshit bullshit. It is not about feeling oppressed and stuff, it is about systemic racism that impregnated our vocabulary and that we are trying to get rid off. We should say in the FAQ that we support the idea of the transition but that for now, technically, using "master" is easier with Pharo until anyone from the community takes her time to solve the project. Woke + Virtue-Signalling => nazi words used by nazis to tell other nazis that they should nazify the discussion and kill every effort about any kind of social movement discussion. + typical nazi arguments everywhere in your messages... We're not stupid. Vocabulary and things will change. Pharo is political (in every way), so it has a political dimension and it will be discussed. You can do nothing about it. Just quit. Le 2021-07-21 11:51, Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz<mailto:Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> a Ã©crit : Ugh. Slight history lesson / disambiguation. The phrasing âwoke" actually came from âthe left", first it was being âwoke" about feminism, then this, then that. Then, those who felt oppressed by the sexist arguments of extreme, âwoke" fraction of feminism, or racist arguments of those posing as anti-racists (and I could go on), started to use it as a pejorative, for those pushing insane propaganda, and for the propaganda itself. Then, those who called themselves / their positions âwoke" in the past, started screeching that it is âextreme right vocabulary". As multiple people pointed out, master repository doesn't have anything to do with slavery; as I pointed out there is need to feel butthurt about some words even if your ancestors were affected by the concepts they were also used for. So you points are completely invalid, virtue-signalling garbage. But it usually takes âhaving the lived experience" of the woke garbage turning aginst you, to get one of the indoctrinated to leave their religion. And trying to do so doesn't belong on this forum, I just said what I felt needed to be said. And with this, I'm back to lurking, I just wanted to clearly demonstrate why such debates have no merit (clearly the opposite) on prog. lang. forums/mailing list. Everyone, keep on making Pharo great. From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou(a)kloum.io<mailto:steven.costiou@kloum.io>> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 9:47 PM To: RauÅ¡ Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz<mailto:Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz>> Cc: pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming So far, no windmill complained about "woke incursions". "Woke" is extremely clear vocabulary, only used by - let us get straight to the point and not waste our time - modern nazis. So, perhaps you misused the word and should document yourself extensively on the subject. But your reply seems to point otherwise. And *you* are the one feeling hurt because we want to recognize that vocabulary has an impact on how we perceive and conceive things. What was that again about cowardise and virtue? :) It is something to cope as we can with an annoying technical situation, it is another thing to ask to not consider political views because they are "woke" (which only purpose is to deny their legitimity without arguing). Does the Pharo community support "anti-woke" argumentation? This needs to be clear so that I can decide to leave the community or not. Or perhaps, that is a misunderstanding. Steven. Le 2021-07-20 20:12, Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz<mailto:Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> a Ã©crit : Hi, it's âhighly probably" somewhere in the territorry of poor understanding, but I wouldn't blame language (don't pretend to be obtuse when you want to be sneakily subversive). I explicitly stated that fighting against _actual_ slavery is better done by other means / elsewhere. Fighting against percieved shadows (âextreme right vocabulary"; or nomenclature that never hurt no-one) is just divisive, and counter-productive on a programming language mailing-list. You can't erase history, and that some words that had negative connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes today is no wonder. As, of course, you can't be bothered to know, I'm member of one of those nations called âSlavic" (.cz in my mail address). You know, you pretender, nations who were enslaved so frequently that the word âslave" came from our enslavement. Do I have a tendency to blame âheirs" of those who enslaved us in the past ? Do I cringe every time the word slave is uttered ? Do you know that some brainwashed individuals in our nation, in sync with todays brainwashing, tried to push the narrative that we (our nation), were colonizers as well ? NO. No-one is gonna make me feel like a victim (or an abuser) because of what happened in the past, before my father was born, etc. Go fight you windmills, Don Q., I just hope the rest of the community won't let themselves be pulled into it. M.R. From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou(a)kloum.io<mailto:steven.costiou@kloum.io>> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:08 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>> Cc: RauÅ¡ Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz<mailto:Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz<mailto:Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> a Ã©crit : Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition). The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country. I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor understanding of english. But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in general should leave the community. Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke") should leave the community. If that's trolling, all the same. If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion. Steven. I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures". Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried. M.R. -----Original Message----- From: Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works<mailto:tim@testit.works>> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>> Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change? Tim On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr<mailto:stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>> wrote: Sven >From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think. S On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu<mailto:sven@stfx.eu>> wrote: Hi, For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master. There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change. Specifically: This does not work ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit BaselineOfReddit instead you have to say ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ BaselineOfReddit It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-) Sven

July 21, 2021

Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming

by Steven Costiou

Bullshit bullshit bullshit. It is not about feeling oppressed and stuff, it is about systemic racism that impregnated our vocabulary and that we are trying to get rid off. We should say in the FAQ that we support the idea of the transition but that for now, technically, using "master" is easier with Pharo until anyone from the community takes her time to solve the project. Woke + Virtue-Signalling => nazi words used by nazis to tell other nazis that they should nazify the discussion and kill every effort about any kind of social movement discussion. + typical nazi arguments everywhere in your messages... We're not stupid. Vocabulary and things will change. Pharo is political (in every way), so it has a political dimension and it will be discussed. You can do nothing about it. Just quit. Le 2021-07-21 11:51, Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz a Ã©crit : > Ugh. Slight history lesson / disambiguation. > > The phrasing âwoke" actually came from âthe left", first it was being âwoke" about feminism, then this, then that. > > Then, those who felt oppressed by the sexist arguments of extreme, âwoke" fraction of feminism, or racist arguments of those posing as anti-racists (and I could go on), started to use it as a pejorative, for those pushing insane propaganda, and for the propaganda itself. > > Then, those who called themselves / their positions âwoke" in the past, started screeching that it is âextreme right vocabulary". > > As multiple people pointed out, master repository doesn't have anything to do with slavery; as I pointed out there is need to feel butthurt about some words even if your ancestors were affected by the concepts they were also used for. So you points are completely invalid, virtue-signalling garbage. > > But it usually takes âhaving the lived experience" of the woke garbage turning aginst you, to get one of the indoctrinated to leave their religion. And trying to do so doesn't belong on this forum, I just said what I felt needed to be said. > > And with this, I'm back to lurking, I just wanted to clearly demonstrate why such debates have no merit (clearly the opposite) on prog. lang. forums/mailing list. > > Everyone, keep on making Pharo great. > > FROM: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou(a)kloum.io> > SENT: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 9:47 PM > TO: RauÅ¡ Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz> > CC: pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org > SUBJECT: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming > > So far, no windmill complained about "woke incursions". > "Woke" is extremely clear vocabulary, only used by - let us get straight to the point and not waste our time - modern nazis. > > So, perhaps you misused the word and should document yourself extensively on the subject. > But your reply seems to point otherwise. > And *you* are the one feeling hurt because we want to recognize that vocabulary has an impact on how we perceive and conceive things. > What was that again about cowardise and virtue? :) > > It is something to cope as we can with an annoying technical situation, it is another thing to ask to not consider political views because they are "woke" (which only purpose is to deny their legitimity without arguing). > Does the Pharo community support "anti-woke" argumentation? > This needs to be clear so that I can decide to leave the community or not. > > Or perhaps, that is a misunderstanding. > > Steven. > > Le 2021-07-20 20:12, Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz a Ã©crit : > > Hi, > > it's âhighly probably" somewhere in the territorry of poor understanding, but I wouldn't blame language (don't pretend to be obtuse when you want to be sneakily subversive). > > I explicitly stated that fighting against __actual__ slavery is better done by other means / elsewhere. Fighting against percieved shadows (âextreme right vocabulary"; or nomenclature that never hurt no-one) is just divisive, and counter-productive on a programming language mailing-list. > > You can't erase history, and that some words that had negative connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes today is no wonder. > > As, of course, you can't be bothered to know, I'm member of one of those nations called âSlavic" (.cz in my mail address). You know, you pretender, nations who were enslaved so frequently that the word âslave" came from our enslavement. Do I have a tendency to blame âheirs" of those who enslaved us in the past ? Do I cringe every time the word slave is uttered ? Do you know that some brainwashed individuals in our nation, in sync with todays brainwashing, tried to push the narrative that we (our nation), were colonizers as well ? > > NO. > > No-one is gonna make me feel like a victim (or an abuser) because of what happened in the past, before my father was born, etc. > > Go fight you windmills, Don Q., I just hope the rest of the community won't let themselves be pulled into it. > > M.R. > > FROM: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou(a)kloum.io> > SENT: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:08 PM > TO: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> > CC: RauÅ¡ Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz> > SUBJECT: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming > > Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz a Ã©crit : > > Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention > > That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition). > > The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country. I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor understanding of english. But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in general should leave the community. Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke") should leave the community. If that's trolling, all the same. If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion. Steven. > I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures". > > Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried. > M.R. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM > To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> > Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming > > Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change? > > Tim > > On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > Sven > > From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. > I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master > and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. > I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think. > > S > > On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > Hi, > > For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master. > > There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change. > > Specifically: > > This does not work > > ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit > BaselineOfReddit > > instead you have to say > > ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ > BaselineOfReddit > > It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-) > > Sven

July 21, 2021

Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming

by Miloslav.Raus＠cuzk.cz

Ugh. Slight history lesson / disambiguation. The phrasing âwokeâ actually came from âthe leftâ, first it was being âwokeâ about feminism, then this, then that. Then, those who felt oppressed by the sexist arguments of extreme, âwokeâ fraction of feminism, or racist arguments of those posing as anti-racists (and I could go on), started to use it as a pejorative, for those pushing insane propaganda, and for the propaganda itself. Then, those who called themselves / their positions âwokeâ in the past, started screeching that it is âextreme right vocabularyâ. As multiple people pointed out, master repository doesnât have anything to do with slavery; as I pointed out there is need to feel butthurt about some words even if your ancestors were affected by the concepts they were also used for. So you points are completely invalid, virtue-signalling garbage. But it usually takes âhaving the lived experienceâ of the woke garbage turning aginst you, to get one of the indoctrinated to leave their religion. And trying to do so doesnât belong on this forum, I just said what I felt needed to be said. And with this, Iâm back to lurking, I just wanted to clearly demonstrate why such debates have no merit (clearly the opposite) on prog. lang. forums/mailing list. Everyone, keep on making Pharo great. From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou(a)kloum.io> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 9:47 PM To: RauÅ¡ Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz> Cc: pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming So far, no windmill complained about "woke incursions". "Woke" is extremely clear vocabulary, only used by - let us get straight to the point and not waste our time - modern nazis. So, perhaps you misused the word and should document yourself extensively on the subject. But your reply seems to point otherwise. And *you* are the one feeling hurt because we want to recognize that vocabulary has an impact on how we perceive and conceive things. What was that again about cowardise and virtue? :) It is something to cope as we can with an annoying technical situation, it is another thing to ask to not consider political views because they are "woke" (which only purpose is to deny their legitimity without arguing). Does the Pharo community support "anti-woke" argumentation? This needs to be clear so that I can decide to leave the community or not. Or perhaps, that is a misunderstanding. Steven. Le 2021-07-20 20:12, Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz<mailto:Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> a Ã©crit : Hi, it's âhighly probably" somewhere in the territorry of poor understanding, but I wouldn't blame language (don't pretend to be obtuse when you want to be sneakily subversive). I explicitly stated that fighting against _actual_ slavery is better done by other means / elsewhere. Fighting against percieved shadows (âextreme right vocabulary"; or nomenclature that never hurt no-one) is just divisive, and counter-productive on a programming language mailing-list. You can't erase history, and that some words that had negative connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes today is no wonder. As, of course, you can't be bothered to know, I'm member of one of those nations called âSlavic" (.cz in my mail address). You know, you pretender, nations who were enslaved so frequently that the word âslave" came from our enslavement. Do I have a tendency to blame âheirs" of those who enslaved us in the past ? Do I cringe every time the word slave is uttered ? Do you know that some brainwashed individuals in our nation, in sync with todays brainwashing, tried to push the narrative that we (our nation), were colonizers as well ? NO. No-one is gonna make me feel like a victim (or an abuser) because of what happened in the past, before my father was born, etc. Go fight you windmills, Don Q., I just hope the rest of the community won't let themselves be pulled into it. M.R. From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou(a)kloum.io<mailto:steven.costiou@kloum.io>> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:08 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>> Cc: RauÅ¡ Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz<mailto:Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz<mailto:Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> a Ã©crit : Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition). The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country. I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor understanding of english. But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in general should leave the community. Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke") should leave the community. If that's trolling, all the same. If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion. Steven. I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures". Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried. M.R. -----Original Message----- From: Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works<mailto:tim@testit.works>> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>> Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change? Tim On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr<mailto:stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>> wrote: Sven >From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think. S On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu<mailto:sven@stfx.eu>> wrote: Hi, For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master. There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change. Specifically: This does not work ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit BaselineOfReddit instead you have to say ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ BaselineOfReddit It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-) Sven

July 21, 2021

Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming

by Steven Costiou

So far, no windmill complained about "woke incursions". "Woke" is extremely clear vocabulary, only used by - let us get straight to the point and not waste our time - modern nazis. So, perhaps you misused the word and should document yourself extensively on the subject. But your reply seems to point otherwise. And *you* are the one feeling hurt because we want to recognize that vocabulary has an impact on how we perceive and conceive things. What was that again about cowardise and virtue? :) It is something to cope as we can with an annoying technical situation, it is another thing to ask to not consider political views because they are "woke" (which only purpose is to deny their legitimity without arguing). Does the Pharo community support "anti-woke" argumentation? This needs to be clear so that I can decide to leave the community or not. Or perhaps, that is a misunderstanding. Steven. Le 2021-07-20 20:12, Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz a Ã©crit : > Hi, > > it's âhighly probably" somewhere in the territorry of poor understanding, but I wouldn't blame language (don't pretend to be obtuse when you want to be sneakily subversive). > > I explicitly stated that fighting against __actual__ slavery is better done by other means / elsewhere. Fighting against percieved shadows (âextreme right vocabulary"; or nomenclature that never hurt no-one) is just divisive, and counter-productive on a programming language mailing-list. > > You can't erase history, and that some words that had negative connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes today is no wonder. > > As, of course, you can't be bothered to know, I'm member of one of those nations called âSlavic" (.cz in my mail address). You know, you pretender, nations who were enslaved so frequently that the word âslave" came from our enslavement. Do I have a tendency to blame âheirs" of those who enslaved us in the past ? Do I cringe every time the word slave is uttered ? Do you know that some brainwashed individuals in our nation, in sync with todays brainwashing, tried to push the narrative that we (our nation), were colonizers as well ? > > NO. > > No-one is gonna make me feel like a victim (or an abuser) because of what happened in the past, before my father was born, etc. > > Go fight you windmills, Don Q., I just hope the rest of the community won't let themselves be pulled into it. > > M.R. > > FROM: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou(a)kloum.io> > SENT: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:08 PM > TO: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> > CC: RauÅ¡ Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz> > SUBJECT: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming > > Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz a Ã©crit : > > Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention > > That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition). > > The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country. I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor understanding of english. But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in general should leave the community. Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke") should leave the community. If that's trolling, all the same. If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion. Steven. > I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures". > > Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried. > M.R. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM > To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> > Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming > > Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change? > > Tim > > On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > Sven > > From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. > I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master > and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. > I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think. > > S > > On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > Hi, > > For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master. > > There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change. > > Specifically: > > This does not work > > ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit > BaselineOfReddit > > instead you have to say > > ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ > BaselineOfReddit > > It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-) > > Sven

July 20, 2021

Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming

by Esteban Maringolo

On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 3:13 PM <Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz> wrote: > You canât erase history, and that some words that had negative connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes today is no wonder. I think that the change from master to main makes more sense from the semantic point of view since main is more accurate, I still haven't seen a `slave` branch in any repository. So I think that the "master" name was chosen as in "master key". In Spanish "master" translates to "principal" which translates back to "main", and also to "maestro", which translates back to "teacher". So I think that the GitHub change does nothing against slavery, but the change ripples with side effects as the one that started this mail thread. In any case, it says more about them than about me, and since this is not mandatory, I have no urge to rename anything soon. Regards, Esteban A. Maringolo

July 20, 2021

Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming

by Miloslav.Raus＠cuzk.cz

Hi, itâs âhighly probablyâ somewhere in the territorry of poor understanding, but I wouldnât blame language (donât pretend to be obtuse when you want to be sneakily subversive). I explicitly stated that fighting against _actual_ slavery is better done by other means / elsewhere. Fighting against percieved shadows (âextreme right vocabularyâ; or nomenclature that never hurt no-one) is just divisive, and counter-productive on a programming language mailing-list. You canât erase history, and that some words that had negative connotations in the past are used for new, entirely unrelated purposes today is no wonder. As, of course, you canât be bothered to know, Iâm member of one of those nations called âSlavicâ (.cz in my mail address). You know, you pretender, nations who were enslaved so frequently that the word âslaveâ came from our enslavement. Do I have a tendency to blame âheirsâ of those who enslaved us in the past ? Do I cringe every time the word slave is uttered ? Do you know that some brainwashed individuals in our nation, in sync with todays brainwashing, tried to push the narrative that we (our nation), were colonizers as well ? NO. No-one is gonna make me feel like a victim (or an abuser) because of what happened in the past, before my father was born, etc. Go fight you windmills, Don Q., I just hope the rest of the community wonât let themselves be pulled into it. M.R. From: Steven Costiou <steven.costiou(a)kloum.io> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:08 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> Cc: RauÅ¡ Miloslav <Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz<mailto:Miloslav.Raus@cuzk.cz> a Ã©crit : Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition). The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country. I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor understanding of english. But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in general should leave the community. Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke") should leave the community. If that's trolling, all the same. If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion. Steven. I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures". Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried. M.R. -----Original Message----- From: Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works<mailto:tim@testit.works>> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org<mailto:pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org>> Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change? Tim On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr<mailto:stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>> wrote: Sven >From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think. S On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu<mailto:sven@stfx.eu>> wrote: Hi, For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master. There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change. Specifically: This does not work ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit BaselineOfReddit instead you have to say ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ BaselineOfReddit It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-) Sven

July 20, 2021

Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming

by Steven Costiou

Le 2021-07-19 16:54, Miloslav.Raus(a)cuzk.cz a Ã©crit : >> Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention > That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition). > > The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country. I'm a bit sorry if I misinterpret what you say because of my poor understanding of english. But I would answer that whomever having a problem with fighting slavery in general should leave the community. Anyone also using and supporting extreme right vocabulary (e.g. "woke") should leave the community. If that's trolling, all the same. If I misinterpreted (non-native english speaker), I am sorry, and probably you will agree with me and there is no need for dicussion. Steven. > I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures". > > Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried. > M.R. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM > To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> > Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming > > Maybe it's worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change? > > Tim > > On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > Sven > > From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. > I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master > and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. > I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think. > > S > > On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > Hi, > > For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master. > > There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change. > > Specifically: > > This does not work > > ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit > BaselineOfReddit > > instead you have to say > > ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ > BaselineOfReddit > > It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-) > > Sven

July 20, 2021

Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming

by Miloslav.Raus＠cuzk.cz

> Maybe itâs worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention That's pretty counter-productive. It would be just empty virtue-signalling response to an empty virtue-signalling gesture (that of MS/Github pushing master->main transition). The change would bring absolutely nothing to no-one (except a lot of needless work/friction; and an inroad for future woke incursions). Whomever is having problem with slavery can fight modern-day slavery in ie. Africa / China / etc or sex trafficking in their own country. I'd prefer either nothing in the FAQ, or finite statement to the tune of "no wokeness, we are about merit and not about empty gestures". Of course I expect cowardice & virtue-signalling to win in the end, but at least I tried. M.R. -----Original Message----- From: Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2021 1:14 PM To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> Subject: [Pharo-dev] Re: Metacello / Iceberg / GitHub master to main renaming Maybe itâs worth putting something in an faq - that we support the intent of the master to main naming convention, but that as we are a small community trying to improve many aspects of 50 years of development, this one had to unfortunately take a back seat for the moment while we simplify other things to make this an easier change? Tim > On 19 Jul 2021, at 12:26, stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > ï»¿Sven > > From that perspective this master to main change will cost us a lot of problem. > I decided to continue to configure all my repositories to use master > and I will do it for any repository that is related to pharo and that people may use. Just to remove such kind of friction. > I would encourage people to do the same like that we do not have to think. > > S > >> On 12 Jul 2021, at 14:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> For new GitHub projects the default branch is now main instead of master. >> >> There is however code in Metacello / Iceberg / ... that tries a number of options if no branch is specified, but it is not yet aware of this change. >> >> Specifically: >> >> This does not work >> >> ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit >> BaselineOfReddit >> >> instead you have to say >> >> ./pharo reddit.image metacello install github://svenvc/Reddit:main/ >> BaselineOfReddit >> >> It took me half an hour to figure this out ;-) >> >> Sven >>

July 19, 2021