November 2019 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Erlang/OTP/Pony-style concurrency in Smalltalk

by Shaping

(I posted this earlier to the OS VM group (vm-dev(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org) but the message appeared as an attachment. I'm not sure that was the right place; so I'm reposting here.) Hi all. I was reading about the RoarVM, recently. The project seems to be at a standstill. Why, as in the RoarVM, would someone try to build a Smalltalk VM supporting concurrency, and not also resolve to use a strict actor model in which each process has its own, usually small heap that is very quickly and simply GCed? If I understand correctly, RoarVM still had one big heap for all processes. With one heap per process, many times no GC happens at all: the process finishes and the heap is discarded. This finer-grained memory-management dynamic gets us closer to deterministic latencies, which are needed in simulations (and almost anything graphical you want to render smoothly). The idea with the actor model (and the OTP-style work-stealing that accompanies it) is not only to use very continuously all cores in all CPUs in all machine-nodes on the network, all of the time (until the program exits or goes idle), but also to make using the usual synchronization devices (semaphores, mutexes, monitors, and the like) unnecessary. This is where all the complexity is and where the time and effort go when coding and debugging concurrent apps. No one wants to use these devices if he needn't. The actor model is an elegant way to solve the concurrent-programming problem, which mostly reduces to advancing program state with only asynchronous messaging, while causing no blocking and no idle cores if there is still work left to do. The actor model works if you are willing to build a proper state-machine for your app (I have some ideas for a GUI to help in this respect) and the asynchronous messaging is fast. It is very fast in Pony (https://www.ponylang.io/) (Smalltalk images linked by WS connections won't be fast enough.) I'm learning to use Pony these days. It's a good tool, and it's improving at a good pace with an enthusiastic community. It's statically compiled; so it's not speeding development/experimentation as much as it is the resulting program. However, Pony vastly reduces the amount of concurrency-related debugging you would otherwise do if you did not, after a successful compile, have a provably non-deadlocking/non-data racing program. This is the new thing that Pony gives you, and it's great. But I want a dynamic development environment and very efficient Erlang/OTP/Pony-style concurrency. How do we get that? Why wasn't this the path chosen by the RoarVM developers? What is happening in OpenSmalltalk VM regarding such concurrency? I'm considering using Pony somehow in a 5-pane browser (but that's some work), dumping compiler errors to the Transcript. I'm not fond of editing text files (scrolling/searching) even when the process is very graceful. That's too 20th-century. VS Code is a very nice tool with great extensions, but it does not replace what happens in a Smalltalk browser. Please share your thoughts on what is happening or what could be done to create Erlang/OTP/Pony-style concurrency in Smalltalk. Cheers, Shaping

Nov. 29, 2019

[Pharo 8.0] Build #1026: 5190-Match-comments-should-turned-into-executable-comments

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #1026 was: SUCCESS. The Pull Request #5265 was integrated: "5190-Match-comments-should-turned-into-executable-comments" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/5265 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/5190 Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Nov. 29, 2019

ECOOP'20 Berlin - Call for Papers

by Fabio Niephaus

============================================================ The 34th Edition of ECOOP Call for Papers 13th-17th July 2020 Berlin, Germany https://2020.ecoop.org/ ============================================================ ECOOP is a conference about programming. Originally its primary focus was on object orientation, but now it looks at a much broader range of programming topics. Areas of interest include, at least, the design, implementation, optimization, analysis, and theory of programs, programming languages, and programming environments. It solicits both innovative and creative solutions to real problems as well as evaluations of existing solutionsâevaluations that provide new insights. It also encourages the submission of reproduction studies. ECOOP 2020 solicits high-quality submissions describing original, unpublished results. The program committee will evaluate the technical contribution of each submission as well as its general relevance and accessibility to the ECOOP audience according to the following criteria: - Originality. Papers must present new ideas and place them appropriately within the context established by previous research in the field. - Significance. The results in the paper must have the potential to add significantly to the state of the art or practice. - Evidence. The paper must present evidence supporting its claims. Examples of evidence include implemented systems, experimental results, statistical analyses, case studies, formalizations, and proofs. - Clarity. The paper must present its contributions and results clearly. On submission, authors will be asked to identify their paper with one of the following categories: - Research Paper. This is the most traditional category and solicits high quality research papers that demonstrate advances in the field. (As an alternative to being published in the conference proceedings, authors may wish to submit research papers to be considered for publication in ACM TOPLAS or Science of Computer Programming.) - Tool Insights Paper. These submissions focus on the practical details of the design and implementation of PL toolsâdetails that are often omitted from regular research papers, despite being fascinating and worthy of communication. A strong Tool Insights Paper should communicate engineering experience and insights that are likely to be useful to other members of the PL community, who may face similar problems in future. Examples of issues that Tool Insights Papers might focus on include, but are not limited to: performance, reliability, portability, inter-tool integration, infrastructure re-use, evaluation issues, theory/practice gaps, precision/efficiency, and soundness/efficiency trade-offs. - Reproduction Study. A Reproduction Study is an empirical evaluation. It reconstructs an already published experiment but in a different context (for example, using a different virtual machine or platform, or in a different class of applications) in order to validate or refute important results of earlier work. A good Reproduction Study includes thorough empirical evaluation as well as a detailed comparison with the previous results, providing reasons for possible disagreements. (A thoroughly-conducted Reproduction Study that perfectly replicates an existing experiment and reaches the same conclusions will be regarded as significant, so long as said experiment is significant enough to be worthy of reproduction.) - Experience Report. Such reports focus on noteworthy applications of known PL techniques, tools, and ideas in interesting domains and by other communities. Examples include, but are not limited to, applications of PL techniques in industry, open source, education, and other academic disciplines. We welcome reports on successful applications of PL ideas and reports that shed light on limitations and problems that may provide inspiration for future research. - Pearl. This category solicits articles that explain a known idea in a new and elegant way, to the benefit of the PL community. A Pearl may well be shorter than a regular research paper, but there is no hard requirement on this. - Brave New Idea. The Brave New Idea category solicits forward-looking articles on ideas in the field of PL that may take some time to substantiate, but for which early communication to the community is likely to be of benefit. For this category we welcome papers that are particularly conceptually novel or unconventional and that as a result may be harder to back up by traditional evaluation methods. A Brave New Idea paper may well be shorter than a regular research paper, but there is no requirement for it to be so. Paper Submission ================ Only papers that have not been published and are not under review for publication elsewhere may be submitted. Double submissions will be rejected without review. If major parts of an ECOOP submission have appeared elsewhere in any form, authors are required to notify the ECOOP program chair and explain the overlap and relationship. Authors are also required to inform the program chair about closely related work submitted to another conference while the ECOOP submission is under review. Papers must be no longer than 25 pages, excluding references. See below for information about appendices. Authors will not be penalized for papers that are shorter than the page limit. Submissions will be carried out electronically via the conference website [1]. ECOOP Proceedings are published by Dagstuhl LIPIcs. Papers must be written in English and follow the Dagstuhl LIPIcs LaTeX-style template [2]. Authors retain ownership of their content. Note: Submitted papers do not need to include the ACM classification or keywords. Also, please DO NOT put your name in either the \author or \Copyright macro, in order to maintain anonymity for double-blind reviewing (see below). Anonymity ========= ECOOP will use light double-blind reviewing: authorsâ identities are withheld until a reviewer submits his or her review (as usual, reviews are anonymous). To facilitate this, submitted papers must adhere to two rules: - Author names and institutions must be omitted. - References to authorsâ own other work should be in the third person (for example, not âWe build on our previous workâ¦â but rather âWe build on the work ofâ¦â). When in doubt, contact the Program Chair. Additional Material =================== Clearly marked additional appendices containing analyses, statistics, supporting proofs, etc. of possible value to reviewers but not published in the final publication, may be included beyond the page limit. The submission system provides an option to submit supplementary material; for example, a technical report including proofs, or web pages and repositories that cannot easily be anonymized. This supplementary material will be made available to reviewers after the initial reviews have been completed, when author names are revealed. Reviewers are under no obligation to examine such appendices and supplementary material. Therefore, the paper must be a stand-alone document - the appendices and supplementary material are a way of providing useful information that cannot fit in the page limit; they are not a means to extend the page limit. Authors of papers that have been submitted but not accepted by previous conferences may optionally submit a Note to Reviewers. The Note to Reviewers should provide the following information: - the identity of the previous venue(s) (for example, ESOP 2020, â¹Programmingâº 2020, POPL 2020, OOPSLA 2019) - a list the major issues identified by the reviews at those venues - a description of the changes made to the paper in response to those reviews These notes will be made available to reviewers after their initial reviews have been completed and author names have been revealed. Response Period =============== Authors will be given a three-day period to read and respond to the reviews of their papers before the program committee meeting. Responses have no formal length limit, but concision is likely to be effective. Artifact Evaluation =================== To reward the creation of artifacts and support replication of experiments, authors of accepted research papers may submit artifacts (such as tools, data, models, or videos) to be evaluated by an Artifact Evaluation Committee. Artifacts that pass muster will be recognized officially. Important Dates =============== - Paper submission: 10 January 2020 (Fri) - Author response: 16â18 March 2020 (Mon-Wed) - Author notification: 8 April 2020 (Wed) Journal First ============= We have Journal First arrangements with ACM Transactions on Programming Languages and Systems and Elsevier Science of Computer Programming. Common to both routes --------------------- Only new research papers are eligible for the Journal First routes to ECOOP 2020. That is, it is not acceptable to submit an extension of a previous conference paper, even if the associated journal solicits extended papers via its standard submission route. Authors of all accepted Journal First papers will be invited to submit a short abstract for their paper to appear in the ECOOP 2020 conference proceedings. Journal First papers will be included along with research papers submitted directly to the conference when a Distinguished Paper is selected. Science of Computer Programming route ------------------------------------- See this dedicated web page [3] for full details of how to submit to the ECOOP 2020 Science of Computer Programming (SCP) special issue. Submission deadline: December 2, 2019 (Mon) ACM Transactions on Programming Languages and Systems route ----------------------------------------------------------- See this announcement [4] for details of the TOPLAS scheme whereby papers submitted to TOPLAS can be presented at selected conferences. Authors interested in this route should submit their paper to TOPLAS via its usual submission system and mark it as an ECOOP 2020 submission. The ECOOP Program Chair will then be informed of this submission and will have some input into the review process. Submission deadline: October 10, 2019 (Thu) More Information ================ For additional information, please contact the ECOOP Program Chair, Robert Hirschfeld [5]. [1] https://2020.ecoop.org/track/ecoop-2020-papers [2] https://www.dagstuhl.de/en/publications/lipics/instructions-for-authors/ [3] https://www.journals.elsevier.com/science-of-computer-programming/call-for-… [4] https://toplas.acm.org/announcements.cfm#submit-a-paper-for-pldi-2016 [5] https://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/people/hirschfeld/

Nov. 29, 2019

[Pharo 8.0] Build #1025: CompletionFallBack

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #1025 was: SUCCESS. The Pull Request #5258 was integrated: "CompletionFallBack" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/5258 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/CompletionFallBack Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Nov. 28, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] BlueInk removal

by Esteban Maringolo

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 6:14 AM Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > This is all true, BUT ... > > Very few people attempt to do fundamental changes/cleanups/subsystem-replacements in the core image. This all true, BUT ... :-) > This takes a lot of work, is never easy and almost always has issues. This is exactly why you "roll out" features. > Resources are limited as well, in theory things can be done better, in practice in the real world, not so much. Resources are limited to everyone, commercial vendors, sponsored ones like Pharo and, last but not least, "users" [1]. [1] That, like me, read these discussions and only participate in the list because sometimes they seem biased because of a lack of consideration/feedback. I won't argue against the enormous progress and things being done by the whole Pharo team, but IMO minimizing the use of resources (time/effort) as a whole is more an objective than a resources thing. > The alternative is to never touch anything and stay stagnant. This is a false dichotomy. But can't deny its punch. :-) Regards, Esteban A. Maringolo

Nov. 28, 2019

[Pharo 8.0] Build #1024: CompletionFallBack

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #1024 was: FAILURE. The Pull Request #5258 was integrated: "CompletionFallBack" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/5258 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/CompletionFallBack Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Nov. 28, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Mm10s] 2019-11-25

by Steven Costiou

Le 2019-11-28 14:15, ducasse a Ã©crit : > Thanks steven > If you need beta tester please let me know. Yes please, the halt/bp window in the debugger needs feedback. Start a P8 image, then reload spec https://github.com/pharo-spec/Spec then load NewTools https://github.com/pharo-spec/NewTools It should be active by default. Steven. > S. > >> On 28 Nov 2019, at 11:29, Steven Costiou <steven.costiou(a)kloum.io> wrote: >> >> ### Last week: >> >> - halt/breakpoint manager in the spec debugger: see all halt/breakpoints and (de)activate them in one click. When deactivated, a halt/breakpoint just prints a log message in the Transcript. >> >> - Pharo IOT book writing >> >> ### This week (starting 2019-11-25): >> >> - Pharo IOT book writing >> >> - add a "watch variable" window in the debugger to track variables during debugging >> >> ### Pipeline >> >> - Pharo IOT book >> >> - Enhancing the spec debugger: better breakpoint support, adding missing features (menus, options), fixing bugs >> >> - Integrating object-centric debugging in the spec2 tools >> >> - Writing a chapter/documentation about the Pharo debugger

Nov. 28, 2019

[Pharo 8.0] Build #1023: 5102-FastTable-Horizontal-Scrolling-not-implemented

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #1023 was: SUCCESS. The Pull Request #5107 was integrated: "5102-FastTable-Horizontal-Scrolling-not-implemented" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/5107 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/5102 Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Nov. 28, 2019

[ANN] freezing Pharo 8.0 development

by Esteban Lorenzano

Hi, After talk about current situation of P8 development, we decided we have already a version that is very stable (with some remaining problems, we know) and we think this is something we can release before start the new batch of breaking changes (move to headless vm by default, new object centric debugger, etc, etc, etc.) So, I am declaring the development status on âcode freezeâ and we will start working on stabilisation hoping to have a releasable version by end December, beginning of January (yes, this will be a short cycle, but that will allow us to make some iterations needed without the pressure of releasing on April). Enjoy, Esteban

Nov. 28, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Mm10s] 2019-11-25

by ducasse

Thanks steven If you need beta tester please let me know. S. > On 28 Nov 2019, at 11:29, Steven Costiou <steven.costiou(a)kloum.io> wrote: > > ### Last week: > > - halt/breakpoint manager in the spec debugger: see all halt/breakpoints and (de)activate them in one click. When deactivated, a halt/breakpoint just prints a log message in the Transcript. > > - Pharo IOT book writing > > > > ### This week (starting 2019-11-25): > > - Pharo IOT book writing > > - add a "watch variable" window in the debugger to track variables during debugging > > > ### Pipeline > > - Pharo IOT book > > - Enhancing the spec debugger: better breakpoint support, adding missing features (menus, options), fixing bugs > > - Integrating object-centric debugging in the spec2 tools > > - Writing a chapter/documentation about the Pharo debugger >

Nov. 28, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] MDLApplication

by Cyril Ferlicot

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 11:26 AM Julien Delplanque <julien.delplanque(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > Hello Sven, > > Did you try https://github.com/jecisc/MDBaseGenerator ? > To help with discoverability, I migrated the project from my repository to DuneSt. The previous link should still work with Github redirections. > It generates a nice template for starting a new MDL webapp. > > I do not know about MDLApplication. > > Cheers, > > Julien > > -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr

Nov. 28, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] MDLApplication

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 28 Nov 2019, at 11:55, Cyril Ferlicot <cyril.ferlicot(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 11:17 AM Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I am trying to use MaterialDesignLite (master branch in Pharo 7). The demo works perfectly. >> >> Now, I thought I would start writing a small web app by subclassing MDLApplication, since that seems to set up things properly. >> >> Is that class finished ? How am I supposed to use it ? There are screens, but how are these rendered ? Do I have to do this myself ? Must there not be an idea of a current screen ? >> >> MDLScreen is in fact an empty class. >> >> Although there are units tests for MDLApplication, there is no subclass, so no actual user. It feels a bit as if the demo should/could use it. >> > > Hi, > > This class was introduced at the beginning of MDL and was used by its creator. > > This person does not contribute anymore and I never really used it so > I do not know how useful it is. I will add an issue to take a look and > either improve it or deprecate it to not make people lose time. Thanks Cyril, I suspect it was not finished and it was a bit confusing. > https://github.com/DuneSt/MaterialDesignLite/issues/292 > > As Julien told you, I usually start a standard MDL application with > the generator I wrote to get the basic infrastructure. > > I hope it helps you getting started smoothly. > >> Sven > > -- > Cyril Ferlicot > https://ferlicot.fr

Nov. 28, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] MDLApplication

by Cyril Ferlicot

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 11:17 AM Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > Hi, > > I am trying to use MaterialDesignLite (master branch in Pharo 7). The demo works perfectly. > > Now, I thought I would start writing a small web app by subclassing MDLApplication, since that seems to set up things properly. > > Is that class finished ? How am I supposed to use it ? There are screens, but how are these rendered ? Do I have to do this myself ? Must there not be an idea of a current screen ? > > MDLScreen is in fact an empty class. > > Although there are units tests for MDLApplication, there is no subclass, so no actual user. It feels a bit as if the demo should/could use it. > Hi, This class was introduced at the beginning of MDL and was used by its creator. This person does not contribute anymore and I never really used it so I do not know how useful it is. I will add an issue to take a look and either improve it or deprecate it to not make people lose time. https://github.com/DuneSt/MaterialDesignLite/issues/292 As Julien told you, I usually start a standard MDL application with the generator I wrote to get the basic infrastructure. I hope it helps you getting started smoothly. > Sven -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr

Nov. 28, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] MDLApplication

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 28 Nov 2019, at 11:26, Julien Delplanque <julien.delplanque(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > Hello Sven, > > Did you try https://github.com/jecisc/MDBaseGenerator ? > > It generates a nice template for starting a new MDL webapp. OK that works fine, thanks ! > I do not know about MDLApplication. It is in the package Material-Design-Lite-Core, which seems to suggest it is an important class > Cheers, > > Julien > > Le 28/11/19 Ã 11:16, Sven Van Caekenberghe a Ã©crit : >> Hi, >> >> I am trying to use MaterialDesignLite (master branch in Pharo 7). The demo works perfectly. >> >> Now, I thought I would start writing a small web app by subclassing MDLApplication, since that seems to set up things properly. >> >> Is that class finished ? How am I supposed to use it ? There are screens, but how are these rendered ? Do I have to do this myself ? Must there not be an idea of a current screen ? >> >> MDLScreen is in fact an empty class. >> >> Although there are units tests for MDLApplication, there is no subclass, so no actual user. It feels a bit as if the demo should/could use it. >> >> Sven >

Nov. 28, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Mm10s] 2019-11-25

by Steven Costiou

### Last week: - halt/breakpoint manager in the spec debugger: see all halt/breakpoints and (de)activate them in one click. When deactivated, a halt/breakpoint just prints a log message in the Transcript. - Pharo IOT book writing ### This week (starting 2019-11-25): - Pharo IOT book writing - add a "watch variable" window in the debugger to track variables during debugging ### Pipeline - Pharo IOT book - Enhancing the spec debugger: better breakpoint support, adding missing features (menus, options), fixing bugs - Integrating object-centric debugging in the spec2 tools - Writing a chapter/documentation about the Pharo debugger

Nov. 28, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] MDLApplication

by Julien Delplanque

Hello Sven, Did you try https://github.com/jecisc/MDBaseGenerator ? It generates a nice template for starting a new MDL webapp. I do not know about MDLApplication. Cheers, Julien Le 28/11/19 Ã 11:16, Sven Van Caekenberghe a Ã©critÂ : > Hi, > > I am trying to use MaterialDesignLite (master branch in Pharo 7). The demo works perfectly. > > Now, I thought I would start writing a small web app by subclassing MDLApplication, since that seems to set up things properly. > > Is that class finished ? How am I supposed to use it ? There are screens, but how are these rendered ? Do I have to do this myself ? Must there not be an idea of a current screen ? > > MDLScreen is in fact an empty class. > > Although there are units tests for MDLApplication, there is no subclass, so no actual user. It feels a bit as if the demo should/could use it. > > Sven

Nov. 28, 2019

MDLApplication

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Hi, I am trying to use MaterialDesignLite (master branch in Pharo 7). The demo works perfectly. Now, I thought I would start writing a small web app by subclassing MDLApplication, since that seems to set up things properly. Is that class finished ? How am I supposed to use it ? There are screens, but how are these rendered ? Do I have to do this myself ? Must there not be an idea of a current screen ? MDLScreen is in fact an empty class. Although there are units tests for MDLApplication, there is no subclass, so no actual user. It feels a bit as if the demo should/could use it. Sven

Nov. 28, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] BlueInk removal

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

This is all true, BUT ... Very few people attempt to do fundamental changes/cleanups/subsystem-replacements in the core image. This takes a lot of work, is never easy and almost always has issues. Resources are limited as well, in theory things can be done better, in practice in the real world, not so much. The alternative is to never touch anything and stay stagnant. > On 28 Nov 2019, at 10:03, Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: > > To me it certainly looks like a <before we freeze Pharo 8 we have to speed up with features> to get things in > by all means. Have to admit I had this kind of "panic mode" myself several times in the past too ;) > > Stef writes he now does not have the time nor energy - which I guess (including his reactions) is a tribute to his workload. > But then it would have been better to change to new Elumineire or getting rid of GTEventRecorder in Pharo 9 and now just marking > them for later exclusion. Because often we all underestimate the depencies, side effects, migration costs - even the reactions. > > Meanwhile Pharo is not only the base image - it is the full ecosystem around it which is good and a positive sign and > something we IMHO need to respect more and more. > > One has to understand that by just removing and not using deprecation the situation is getting worse and now pulling > more time and energy from other parts of the community too. Because broken stuff like Spotter, Settings, Roassal, Moose, ... > would need repair > - either directly (to help contributors who use them in P8 alpha already to give quick feedback) > - together with the Pharo 8 release so they can be used > - after Pharo 8 is released (which would be very late and might include migration surprises) > > Depreaction would help us better managing such transitions and is something that is standard in other languages too. > > The alternative would be to say this is OPP (other peoples problem) and completely ignoring that projects are built on top > of Pharo base. We all know removing leads to being incompatible and is not helpful in offering a transition path - therefore not > a good option. Because then users would always need to start from scratch with each Pharo release and loose interest quickly. > > Users want to do both: use Pharo and move their projects without having to focus on changed infrastructure > too often. Deprecation would give more room to fixing it- we have theses mechanisms like deprecations and we should really use them. > > In the past we were able to move more freely - but now we should really accept that with more users we have to > follow certain backwards compatibility and more clear rules. This slows us down yes and requires more time > and energy. But it is still a good thing because Pharo is actually used and the community can grow. > > We can not move Pharo into the "perfect" future with a crowbar as this would mean to loose users and especially > trust into the system. We might then still come up with an improved (but still imperfect) system in a few years - > but nobody would be interested anymore. If we fail to see things from the POV of the user then we will fail overall and loose them. > > I agree with Benoit that especially business users first have to solve the customers problems before they > can juggle with migrations. So lets support the overall community and not being ignorant to it. > So far we all managed it quite good: moving from Pharo 6 to 7 and even Pharo 8 is working because things over the last > releases stabilized and also because we added more rules, depreactions, transformations and helping users. > > I personally would prefer to see that "Pharo is not perfect but strong and widely used" than "look how cool it could have been", > so lets not get too impatient. Step by step - sometimes faster sometimes slower... > > Thanks > T. >

Nov. 28, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] BlueInk removal

by Torsten Bergmann

To me it certainly looks like a <before we freeze Pharo 8 we have to speed up with features> to get things in by all means. Have to admit I had this kind of "panic mode" myself several times in the past too ;) Stef writes he now does not have the time nor energy - which I guess (including his reactions) is a tribute to his workload. But then it would have been better to change to new Elumineire or getting rid of GTEventRecorder in Pharo 9 and now just marking them for later exclusion. Because often we all underestimate the depencies, side effects, migration costs - even the reactions. Meanwhile Pharo is not only the base image - it is the full ecosystem around it which is good and a positive sign and something we IMHO need to respect more and more. One has to understand that by just removing and not using deprecation the situation is getting worse and now pulling more time and energy from other parts of the community too. Because broken stuff like Spotter, Settings, Roassal, Moose, ... would need repair - either directly (to help contributors who use them in P8 alpha already to give quick feedback) - together with the Pharo 8 release so they can be used - after Pharo 8 is released (which would be very late and might include migration surprises) Depreaction would help us better managing such transitions and is something that is standard in other languages too. The alternative would be to say this is OPP (other peoples problem) and completely ignoring that projects are built on top of Pharo base. We all know removing leads to being incompatible and is not helpful in offering a transition path - therefore not a good option. Because then users would always need to start from scratch with each Pharo release and loose interest quickly. Users want to do both: use Pharo and move their projects without having to focus on changed infrastructure too often. Deprecation would give more room to fixing it- we have theses mechanisms like deprecations and we should really use them. In the past we were able to move more freely - but now we should really accept that with more users we have to follow certain backwards compatibility and more clear rules. This slows us down yes and requires more time and energy. But it is still a good thing because Pharo is actually used and the community can grow. We can not move Pharo into the "perfect" future with a crowbar as this would mean to loose users and especially trust into the system. We might then still come up with an improved (but still imperfect) system in a few years - but nobody would be interested anymore. If we fail to see things from the POV of the user then we will fail overall and loose them. I agree with Benoit that especially business users first have to solve the customers problems before they can juggle with migrations. So lets support the overall community and not being ignorant to it. So far we all managed it quite good: moving from Pharo 6 to 7 and even Pharo 8 is working because things over the last releases stabilized and also because we added more rules, depreactions, transformations and helping users. I personally would prefer to see that "Pharo is not perfect but strong and widely used" than "look how cool it could have been", so lets not get too impatient. Step by step - sometimes faster sometimes slower... Thanks T.

Nov. 28, 2019

[Pharo 8.0] Build #1022: In bootstrap: Preparing heap before writing the image to shrink its size

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #1022 was: SUCCESS. The Pull Request #5255 was integrated: "In bootstrap: Preparing heap before writing the image to shrink its size" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/5255 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/Pharo8.0 Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Nov. 28, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] BlueInk removal

by Benoit St-Jean

StÃ©phane, You could have said the exact same thing in nicer words, calmly WITHOUT SHOUTING and taking it personal. If people criticize stuff/work/code, it's because 1) they care about Pharo 2) they use Pharo. The day no one will complain on the list will mean Pharo's dead. It also means people have to deal with real projects and real apps and real customers and real migration problems. We have a tool called deprecation, let's use it. It'll save a lot of headaches to everyone. And if you remove stuff, give the developers an extra chance by at least informing them of the upcoming changes/removals by deprecating stuff, not just removing it without warning! I don't recall one single instance in my professional life when VisualWorks or VisualAge Smalltalk didn't provide EVERYTHING that was necessary to be compatible with the previous version to facilitate the job of their customers, us, the developers. Whether it was in the form of deprecated parcels or packages, Cincom & IBM (and now Instantiations) understood one thing : you don't migrate apps that generate millions a year like a tic-tac-toe project on GitHub. It takes time just to migrate from one version to the next, imagine the nightmare when "stuff had just been removed" out of the blue. If you want to see more commercial use of Pharo, you'll have to understand that! In the meantime, could you PLEASE stop taking criticism as if it was directed towards you and/or the Pharo devs? On 2019-11-27 15:31, ducasse wrote: > Cyril > > there is no deprecation for classes: yes I would have to subclass each class and provide old classes. > Sorry but *****I******* repackaged, cleaned the tests, cleaned the baseline, made sure that the baseline is working â¦. of > - GTRecorder (not used in Pharo since 3 YEARS). > - Enlumineur > > And I do not have nor the time or energy at the end of the day to do that in addition > to do all the deprecation and of course fix all the dependencies tests. > > Now if your message is that Pharo should stay with all that shit inside then perfect, Iâm off. > I have plenty of other things (and a lot more exciting to do). > > BTW I THE GUY THAT IS PRODUCING MIGRATOR: you see the idiot that is collecting all the deprecated methods > and packaged them so that OTHERS than me can migrate. > > So now for Blueink then you take 5 min and change your scripts. > So GTEvent recorder you ask alex or milton to see if we can get rid of the problem. > > I do not see why Moose is loading Roassal with it. > To me this is a bad dependency of Roassal. > > If Pharo puts on itself so much constraints then at the end may be I should stop and do something and see > how great this super kitchen sink will evolved. > > Have you ever dare to look at the BaselineOfPharo, IDE just for the fun. > > > >>> Yes, this could have been handled much better, I guess (I don't know the details). >>> >>> But for day to day work, you have to use Pharo 7, which should be 100% stable, while Pharo 8 is a moving target, an alpha version that is sometimes broken. >>> >> Hi, >> >> I agree that the alpha version does not have to be stable all the >> time, but I still don't think it justify to not deprecate things. >> >> When you are working on stable version only, it is still better to be >> able to migrate your projects from one version to the other via the >> deprecation than to have everything broken and not loadable. >> >> If you can't even load your code, it's much harder to fix it. So I >> still think that we should go via deprecations. It has really a low >> cost and make migrations so much easier. Especially it give us time >> instead of giving us an ultimatum "You want to change of version? Then >> you need to fix everything now". >> >>> Now, we still want users for Pharo 8, else there will be no feedback, so there are certainly two sides to this argument. >>> >>> Sven >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Cyril Ferlicot >> https://ferlicot.fr >> > > -- ----------------- BenoÃ®t St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean Instagram: Chef_Benito IRC: lamneth GitHub: bstjean Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein)

Nov. 28, 2019

[Pharo 8.0] Build #1021: 5246--AST-Core-Tests-package-disappeared

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #1021 was: FAILURE. The Pull Request #5254 was integrated: "5246--AST-Core-Tests-package-disappeared" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/5254 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/5246 Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Nov. 27, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] BlueInk removal

by Nicolas Cellier

Why is there no deprecation for classes? The class definition can belong to a deprecated package. For more advanced feature, the deprected globals could belong to another dictionary, a bit like Undeclared... Le mer. 27 nov. 2019 Ã 21:31, ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> a Ã©crit : > Cyril > > there is no deprecation for classes: yes I would have to subclass each > class and provide old classes. > Sorry but *****I******* repackaged, cleaned the tests, cleaned the > baseline, made sure that the baseline is working â¦. of > - GTRecorder (not used in Pharo since 3 YEARS). > - Enlumineur > > And I do not have nor the time or energy at the end of the day to do that > in addition > to do all the deprecation and of course fix all the dependencies tests. > > Now if your message is that Pharo should stay with all that shit inside > then perfect, Iâm off. > I have plenty of other things (and a lot more exciting to do). > > BTW I THE GUY THAT IS PRODUCING MIGRATOR: you see the idiot that is > collecting all the deprecated methods > and packaged them so that OTHERS than me can migrate. > > So now for Blueink then you take 5 min and change your scripts. > So GTEvent recorder you ask alex or milton to see if we can get rid of the > problem. > > I do not see why Moose is loading Roassal with it. > To me this is a bad dependency of Roassal. > > If Pharo puts on itself so much constraints then at the end may be I > should stop and do something and see > how great this super kitchen sink will evolved. > > Have you ever dare to look at the BaselineOfPharo, IDE just for the fun. > > > > >> Yes, this could have been handled much better, I guess (I don't know > the details). > >> > >> But for day to day work, you have to use Pharo 7, which should be 100% > stable, while Pharo 8 is a moving target, an alpha version that is > sometimes broken. > >> > > > > Hi, > > > > I agree that the alpha version does not have to be stable all the > > time, but I still don't think it justify to not deprecate things. > > > > When you are working on stable version only, it is still better to be > > able to migrate your projects from one version to the other via the > > deprecation than to have everything broken and not loadable. > > > > If you can't even load your code, it's much harder to fix it. So I > > still think that we should go via deprecations. It has really a low > > cost and make migrations so much easier. Especially it give us time > > instead of giving us an ultimatum "You want to change of version? Then > > you need to fix everything now". > > > >> Now, we still want users for Pharo 8, else there will be no feedback, > so there are certainly two sides to this argument. > >> > >> Sven > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Cyril Ferlicot > > https://ferlicot.fr > > > > > >

Nov. 27, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] BlueInk removal

by ducasse

Cyril there is no deprecation for classes: yes I would have to subclass each class and provide old classes. Sorry but *****I******* repackaged, cleaned the tests, cleaned the baseline, made sure that the baseline is working â¦. of - GTRecorder (not used in Pharo since 3 YEARS). - Enlumineur And I do not have nor the time or energy at the end of the day to do that in addition to do all the deprecation and of course fix all the dependencies tests. Now if your message is that Pharo should stay with all that shit inside then perfect, Iâm off. I have plenty of other things (and a lot more exciting to do). BTW I THE GUY THAT IS PRODUCING MIGRATOR: you see the idiot that is collecting all the deprecated methods and packaged them so that OTHERS than me can migrate. So now for Blueink then you take 5 min and change your scripts. So GTEvent recorder you ask alex or milton to see if we can get rid of the problem. I do not see why Moose is loading Roassal with it. To me this is a bad dependency of Roassal. If Pharo puts on itself so much constraints then at the end may be I should stop and do something and see how great this super kitchen sink will evolved. Have you ever dare to look at the BaselineOfPharo, IDE just for the fun. >> Yes, this could have been handled much better, I guess (I don't know the details). >> >> But for day to day work, you have to use Pharo 7, which should be 100% stable, while Pharo 8 is a moving target, an alpha version that is sometimes broken. >> > > Hi, > > I agree that the alpha version does not have to be stable all the > time, but I still don't think it justify to not deprecate things. > > When you are working on stable version only, it is still better to be > able to migrate your projects from one version to the other via the > deprecation than to have everything broken and not loadable. > > If you can't even load your code, it's much harder to fix it. So I > still think that we should go via deprecations. It has really a low > cost and make migrations so much easier. Especially it give us time > instead of giving us an ultimatum "You want to change of version? Then > you need to fix everything now". > >> Now, we still want users for Pharo 8, else there will be no feedback, so there are certainly two sides to this argument. >> >> Sven >> >> >> > > > -- > Cyril Ferlicot > https://ferlicot.fr >

Nov. 27, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] BlueInk removal

by ducasse

> On 27 Nov 2019, at 14:05, Cyril Ferlicot <cyril.ferlicot(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 6:29 PM ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> wrote: >> >> Cyril >> >> We are crawling with too many things. >> Pharo should start to lose fat FOR REAL. >> I really hope that we will get rid of lot of old code in the future. >> If Enlumineur does not work when we integrate it - I just issue a PR >> then you will have a good case for reintegrating and having two formatter, two contexts classes, >> two packages full of nearly the same but not quite tests. >> > > Yes but deprecation give us time to migrate. > > Now I cannot work on Moose because the dev version is broken since > Roassal depends on GTEventRecorder and it was removed without > deprecation. ok sorry I do not get why roassal depends on event recorder. > It's the second day in a row where I cannot work properly. And I don't > know when Moose will be fixed because I don't know the code of roassal > and I cannot fix it myself. So I have to wait that someone else fixes > it. Sure but Pharo is alpha. If in alpha we cannot do this can of things then I prefer to do something else. > I understand that we want Pharo to be smaller but here it prevent > people from working. And the size of those projects is nothing > compared to the global size of Pharo and we are assured to be able to > remove them just after the release of Pharo 8. No because I spent my time cleaning and moving GTRecorder out of Pharo and the same for BlueInk. Now Iâm sorry but this is not my fault if - you work in alpha - roassal depends on old projects Iâm fed up to have a system full of shit and abandonware. Iâm fed up to have tons of user of global everywhere that I do not want to fix. Iâm fed up cleaning the mess of others. S. > >> S. >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Cyril Ferlicot > https://ferlicot.fr >

Nov. 27, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Mm10s] 2019-11-25

by Sean P. DeNigris

ducasse wrote > Thanks Esteban this is great Yes, thanks! Very interesting and helpful :) ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html

Nov. 27, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] BlueInk removal

by Cyril Ferlicot

On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 2:17 PM Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > > > Yes, this could have been handled much better, I guess (I don't know the details). > > But for day to day work, you have to use Pharo 7, which should be 100% stable, while Pharo 8 is a moving target, an alpha version that is sometimes broken. > Hi, I agree that the alpha version does not have to be stable all the time, but I still don't think it justify to not deprecate things. When you are working on stable version only, it is still better to be able to migrate your projects from one version to the other via the deprecation than to have everything broken and not loadable. If you can't even load your code, it's much harder to fix it. So I still think that we should go via deprecations. It has really a low cost and make migrations so much easier. Especially it give us time instead of giving us an ultimatum "You want to change of version? Then you need to fix everything now". > Now, we still want users for Pharo 8, else there will be no feedback, so there are certainly two sides to this argument. > > Sven > > > -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr

Nov. 27, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] BlueInk removal

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 27 Nov 2019, at 14:05, Cyril Ferlicot <cyril.ferlicot(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 6:29 PM ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> wrote: >> >> Cyril >> >> We are crawling with too many things. >> Pharo should start to lose fat FOR REAL. >> I really hope that we will get rid of lot of old code in the future. >> If Enlumineur does not work when we integrate it - I just issue a PR >> then you will have a good case for reintegrating and having two formatter, two contexts classes, >> two packages full of nearly the same but not quite tests. >> > > Yes but deprecation give us time to migrate. > > Now I cannot work on Moose because the dev version is broken since > Roassal depends on GTEventRecorder and it was removed without > deprecation. > > It's the second day in a row where I cannot work properly. And I don't > know when Moose will be fixed because I don't know the code of roassal > and I cannot fix it myself. So I have to wait that someone else fixes > it. > > I understand that we want Pharo to be smaller but here it prevent > people from working. And the size of those projects is nothing > compared to the global size of Pharo and we are assured to be able to > remove them just after the release of Pharo 8. > >> S. >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Cyril Ferlicot > https://ferlicot.fr Yes, this could have been handled much better, I guess (I don't know the details). But for day to day work, you have to use Pharo 7, which should be 100% stable, while Pharo 8 is a moving target, an alpha version that is sometimes broken. Now, we still want users for Pharo 8, else there will be no feedback, so there are certainly two sides to this argument. Sven

Nov. 27, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] BlueInk removal

by Cyril Ferlicot

On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 6:29 PM ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> wrote: > > Cyril > > We are crawling with too many things. > Pharo should start to lose fat FOR REAL. > I really hope that we will get rid of lot of old code in the future. > If Enlumineur does not work when we integrate it - I just issue a PR > then you will have a good case for reintegrating and having two formatter, two contexts classes, > two packages full of nearly the same but not quite tests. > Yes but deprecation give us time to migrate. Now I cannot work on Moose because the dev version is broken since Roassal depends on GTEventRecorder and it was removed without deprecation. It's the second day in a row where I cannot work properly. And I don't know when Moose will be fixed because I don't know the code of roassal and I cannot fix it myself. So I have to wait that someone else fixes it. I understand that we want Pharo to be smaller but here it prevent people from working. And the size of those projects is nothing compared to the global size of Pharo and we are assured to be able to remove them just after the release of Pharo 8. > S. > > > > -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr

Nov. 27, 2019

[Pharo 8.0] Build #1020: Fix spotter openning bug

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #1020 was: SUCCESS. The Pull Request #5251 was integrated: "Fix spotter openning bug" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/5251 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/fix_spotter_bug Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Nov. 27, 2019

[Pharo 8.0] Build #1019: Fix spotter openning bug

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #1019 was: FAILURE. The Pull Request #5251 was integrated: "Fix spotter openning bug" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/5251 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/fix_spotter_bug Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Nov. 27, 2019

[Pharo 8.0] Build #1018: Fix spotter openning bug

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #1018 was: FAILURE. The Pull Request #5251 was integrated: "Fix spotter openning bug" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/5251 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/fix_spotter_bug Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Nov. 27, 2019

[Pharo 8.0] Build #1017: [easyReview] correcting a small typo

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #1017 was: FAILURE. The Pull Request #5245 was integrated: "[easyReview] correcting a small typo" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/5245 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/typos Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Nov. 27, 2019

[Pharo 8.0] Build #1016: Completion: EntryCleanup

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #1016 was: FAILURE. The Pull Request #5229 was integrated: "Completion: EntryCleanup" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/5229 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/CompletuonEntryCleanup Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Nov. 27, 2019

[Pharo 8.0] Build #1015: 5223-Remove-blueInk-packages-from-repository

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #1015 was: FAILURE. The Pull Request #5243 was integrated: "5223-Remove-blueInk-packages-from-repository" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/5243 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/5223 Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Nov. 27, 2019

[Pharo 8.0] Build #1014: fixSystemDependenciesTests

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #1014 was: FAILURE. The Pull Request #5242 was integrated: "fixSystemDependenciesTests" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/5242 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/fixSystemDependenciesTests Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Nov. 27, 2019

[Pharo 8.0] Build #1013: 5238-Checking-a-checkbox-in-Enluminer-setting-crash

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #1013 was: FAILURE. The Pull Request #5240 was integrated: "5238-Checking-a-checkbox-in-Enluminer-setting-crash" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/5240 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/5238 Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Nov. 26, 2019

[Pharo 8.0] Build #1012: 5232-Remove-GTEventRecorder-

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #1012 was: FAILURE. The Pull Request #5236 was integrated: "5232-Remove-GTEventRecorder-" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/5236 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/5232 Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Nov. 26, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] BlueInk removal

by Torsten Bergmann

I guess most Pharo developers and user care more on RELIABILITY, STABILITY and REPRODUCABILITY. Unfortunately there was - no initial discussion on the mailinglist - no description what "Enlumineur" is or where to find it (had to google it and link issue to your repo) - PR was not reviewed nor commented from a second side although removal or switch to basic formatter is a more radical change - an integrator is merging his own PR, no additional look from a second side - all this from one day to the other - ending up in an image broken settings and a basic formatter (who is buggy and eating the comments when used) which will also affect future contributions We for sure all agree on the "WHY" and value that you take action to care on the topic. But you have to admit the "HOW" puts a guestion mark on the way the contribution/integration process works. We have broken settings now - which was clear when we just remove. This will also not be solved automagically when we are past alpha stage. Especially when proper deprecation would have been a single method in the package manifest, see [1]. Some community members had to repair local settings now and also this discussion pulls time (we all could have better invested). If the plate is full we will not empty it out by leaving our paths ... Thx T. [1] http://forum.world.st/Deprecation-guide-for-methods-classes-and-packages-td… > Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. November 2019 um 18:29 Uhr > Von: "ducasse" <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> > An: "Pharo Development List" <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> > Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] BlueInk removal > > Cyril > > We are crawling with too many things. > Pharo should start to lose fat FOR REAL. > I really hope that we will get rid of lot of old code in the future. > If Enlumineur does not work when we integrate it - I just issue a PR > then you will have a good case for reintegrating and having two formatter, two contexts classes, > two packages full of nearly the same but not quite tests. > > S. > > > On 26 Nov 2019, at 14:16, Cyril Ferlicot <cyril.ferlicot(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 2:07 PM ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> wrote: > >> > >> Cyril can you wait until this evening? > >> We should remove old things and having the two side by side is a lot more painful > >> to work. > >> We are still in Pharo 80 alpha. > >> > >> Stef > >> > > > > Can't we deprecate it? It's 1200 LoC, if it's deprecated everything > > will be stricked and people will know they should not use it and it > > will help us migrate our settings without breaking everything. > > > > And deprecating it is just one method in the manifest. > > > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Cyril Ferlicot > > https://ferlicot.fr > > > > > >

Nov. 26, 2019

[Pharo 8.0] Build #1011: 5233-Integrate-EnlumineurFormatter

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #1011 was: FAILURE. The Pull Request #5234 was integrated: "5233-Integrate-EnlumineurFormatter" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/5234 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/5233 Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Nov. 26, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] BlueInk removal

by ducasse

Cyril We are crawling with too many things. Pharo should start to lose fat FOR REAL. I really hope that we will get rid of lot of old code in the future. If Enlumineur does not work when we integrate it - I just issue a PR then you will have a good case for reintegrating and having two formatter, two contexts classes, two packages full of nearly the same but not quite tests. S. > On 26 Nov 2019, at 14:16, Cyril Ferlicot <cyril.ferlicot(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 2:07 PM ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> wrote: >> >> Cyril can you wait until this evening? >> We should remove old things and having the two side by side is a lot more painful >> to work. >> We are still in Pharo 80 alpha. >> >> Stef >> > > Can't we deprecate it? It's 1200 LoC, if it's deprecated everything > will be stricked and people will know they should not use it and it > will help us migrate our settings without breaking everything. > > And deprecating it is just one method in the manifest. > >> >> > > > -- > Cyril Ferlicot > https://ferlicot.fr >

Nov. 26, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] BlueInk removal

by ducasse

> On 26 Nov 2019, at 14:16, Cyril Ferlicot <cyril.ferlicot(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 2:07 PM ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> wrote: >> >> Cyril can you wait until this evening? >> We should remove old things and having the two side by side is a lot more painful >> to work. >> We are still in Pharo 80 alpha. >> >> Stef >> > > Can't we deprecate it? It's 1200 LoC, if it's deprecated everything > will be stricked and people will know they should not use it and it > will help us migrate our settings without breaking everything. ;((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( > > And deprecating it is just one method in the manifest. > >> >> > > > -- > Cyril Ferlicot > https://ferlicot.fr >

Nov. 26, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] BlueInk removal

by Cyril Ferlicot

On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 2:07 PM ducasse <stepharo(a)netcourrier.com> wrote: > > Cyril can you wait until this evening? > We should remove old things and having the two side by side is a lot more painful > to work. > We are still in Pharo 80 alpha. > > Stef > Can't we deprecate it? It's 1200 LoC, if it's deprecated everything will be stricked and people will know they should not use it and it will help us migrate our settings without breaking everything. And deprecating it is just one method in the manifest. > > -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr

Nov. 26, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] BlueInk removal

by ducasse

Cyril can you wait until this evening? We should remove old things and having the two side by side is a lot more painful to work. We are still in Pharo 80 alpha. Stef > On 26 Nov 2019, at 11:55, Cyril Ferlicot <cyril.ferlicot(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > Can we revert the removal of blueink the time the new formatter is in > the image please? (And maybe deprecate it instead of removing it). > > I ask this because: > - If we work with Pharo 8 we need to format the code by hand because > the format option is currently messing the code > - The current formatter is removing all method comment > - Currently removing it without deprecation is breaking the setting > system (And since I push the setting system further than most people, > I cannot even open an image with settings now...) > > I remind that the formatter is called by the refactorings. Imagine my > surprise when I wanted to commit refactorings and I saw all the > formatting messed up and all my method comments missing. I really do > not appreciate to lose comments I spent time to write like this... > > -- > Cyril Ferlicot > https://ferlicot.fr >

Nov. 26, 2019

BlueInk removal

by Cyril Ferlicot

Hi, Can we revert the removal of blueink the time the new formatter is in the image please? (And maybe deprecate it instead of removing it). I ask this because: - If we work with Pharo 8 we need to format the code by hand because the format option is currently messing the code - The current formatter is removing all method comment - Currently removing it without deprecation is breaking the setting system (And since I push the setting system further than most people, I cannot even open an image with settings now...) I remind that the formatter is called by the refactorings. Imagine my surprise when I wanted to commit refactorings and I saw all the formatting messed up and all my method comments missing. I really do not appreciate to lose comments I spent time to write like this... -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr

Nov. 26, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] VM crash investigations

by ducasse

> On 26 Nov 2019, at 10:06, Alistair Grant <akgrant0710(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Stef, > > On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 at 21:36, StÃ©phane Ducasse > <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> >> Did you read that paper https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01152610 ? >> Because may be it can give you ideas of possible problems. > > That, and Eliot's blog posts, and class comments of SpurMemoryManager, > SpurPlanningCompactor, etc. (not that I understood it all) :-) Same here :) > > >> Pablo is on vacation until next monday. Guille working wednesday, thursday and friday afternoons > > OK, thanks. > > Cheers, > Alistair >

Nov. 26, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] VM crash investigations

by Alistair Grant

Hi Stef, On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 at 21:36, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > Did you read that paper https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01152610 ? > Because may be it can give you ideas of possible problems. That, and Eliot's blog posts, and class comments of SpurMemoryManager, SpurPlanningCompactor, etc. (not that I understood it all) :-) > Pablo is on vacation until next monday. Guille working wednesday, thursday and friday afternoons OK, thanks. Cheers, Alistair

Nov. 26, 2019

[Pharo 8.0] Build #1010: 5212-Executable-comment-checker-problem

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #1010 was: FAILURE. The Pull Request #5224 was integrated: "5212-Executable-comment-checker-problem" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/5224 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/5212 Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Nov. 26, 2019

[Pharo 8.0] Build #1009: 5217-Remove-blueInk-to-introduce-Enlumineur

by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #1009 was: FAILURE. The Pull Request #5218 was integrated: "5217-Remove-blueInk-to-introduce-Enlumineur" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/5218 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/5217 Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

Nov. 25, 2019

Re: [Pharo-dev] VM crash investigations

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi Alistair Did you read that paper https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01152610 <https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01152610> ? Because may be it can give you ideas of possible problems. Pablo is on vacation until next monday. Guille working wednesday, thursday and friday afternoons S > On 25 Nov 2019, at 10:18, Alistair Grant <akgrant0710(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi All, > > At the moment I'm spending pretty much all of my working time tracking > down VM crashes. It sounds like there may be others working on the same > issue (Guille?, Pablo?), if so it would be good to be able to exchange > notes and hopefully reach a resolution a little earlier. > > So my status... > > I'm currently focusing on two corruptions that I've seen: > > 1. Frame Pointers aren't being updated when the receiver or rcvr/clsr > they point to is moved during scavenging / compaction. > 2. The current frame pointer (framePointer) contains an address that is > in a free stack page. > > > I'm doing all the investigation using a Pharo minimal image, so there's > no FreeType, and from what I've seen FFI isn't being used. > > The script I'm using to reproduce the crash is at: > https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/issues/444#issuecomment-5… > (the good part about this is that even the memory addresses are > consistent across runs, so it is highly reproducible). > > > For the Frame Pointers not being updated, what I'm seeing is that after > a scavenge has finished copying all the referenced objects, but before > the survivor spaces are exchanged, the call stack looks like: > > (gdb) call printCallStack() > 0x7ffffffe3f70 I SessionManager>launchSnapshot:andQuit: 0x1508860: > a(n) SessionManager > 0x7ffffffe3fe0 I [] in SessionManager>snapshot:andQuit: 0x1508860: > a(n) SessionManager > 0x7ffffffe4020 I [] in INVALID RECEIVER>newProcess 0x118a728 > 0x118a728 is a forwarded object to 0x488fca0 of slot size 7 > hdr8 ..... > > Once the survivor spaces have been exchanged: > > (gdb) call printCallStack() > 0x7ffffffe3f70 I SessionManager>launchSnapshot:andQuit: 0x1508860: > a(n) SessionManager > 0x7ffffffe3fe0 I [] in SessionManager>snapshot:andQuit: 0x1508860: > a(n) SessionManager > 0x7ffffffe4020 I [] in INVALID RECEIVER>newProcess 0x118a728 is in new space > > > For the framePointer containing an address in a free stack page: adding > a check during the scavenge shows that the framePointer is in a free > page. > > I'm assuming it is never valid for the framePointer to be in a free > stack page, and that the receiver and rcvr/clsr should never be in new > space. If my assumptions are wrong please let me know. > > If you'd like any more information, please let me know. > > Thanks, > Alistair > -------------------------------------------- StÃ©phane Ducasse http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr / http://www.pharo.org 03 59 35 87 52 Assistant: Julie Jonas FAX 03 59 57 78 50 TEL 03 59 35 86 16 S. Ducasse - Inria 40, avenue Halley, Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, BÃ¢t.A, Park Plaza Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 France

Nov. 25, 2019