April 2017 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-users] Pharo 6 snap install

by Esteban Lorenzano

this belongs to pharo-dev, please continue there :) > On 15 Apr 2017, at 14:25, Alistair Grant <akgrant0710(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 02:14:26PM +0200, Luke Gorrie wrote: >> On 15 April 2017 at 11:53, Alistair Grant <akgrant0710(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> (actually, I'm not sure why you're bothering since 6 should >> be out before the end of the month, but that's your choice :-)). >> >> >> I just want something stable and reasonably modern for running existing >> applications and building new ones. >> >> If that means waiting for Pharo 6.0 release then that is okay with me. >> >> >> The (V6) linux install relies on a number of bash scripts to launch pharo >> (bin/pharo, bin/pharo-ui and bin/pharo-vm/pharo). How are you producing >> these, or are you doing something else? >> >> >> Here is where those scripts are generated in the existing pharo-vm packaging: >> https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/master/pkgs/development/pharo/vm/ >> build-vm.nix#L50-L70 > > Ahh, so Nix is doing its own thing, not using the ZeroConf scripts. > > >> (I didn't write the nix packaging code but I have volunteered to maintain it so >> if it's out of date then I should fix that.) > > It will be for V6. Esteban has changed the scripts to ensure that Pharo > versions of libraries are loaded (from memory)(this is also partly why I > would like to use the full build process). > > >> git clone https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-vm.git <https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-vm.git> >> git checkout <the stable code...> >> cd pharo-vm/opensmalltalk-vm/build.linux64x64/pharo.cog.spur/build >> ./mvm >> -- >> >> BTW: HEAD is currently eaf13db484ac87720d8454e66b5ce92f51c01036, and my >> experience is that it is significantly less stable than the latest >> binary, which is from 1c38b03fb043a2962f30f080db5b1292b5b7badb >> >> >> This is really the bleeding edge :-) both of those commits were pushed within >> the past three days! > > Yep, V6 is still in testing. :-) > > Cheers, > Alistair

April 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by phil＠highoctane.be

Make it default so that it will bother people enough to fix the glitches. Phil On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > > On 15 Apr 2017, at 13:41, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > > > > On 14/04/17 09:09, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: > >> I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to > make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0. > >> This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of > changing things (yeah, marketing ;) ) > > > > > > No. Please revert that decision. It is too late. You can try that for 7, > and then have the discussions, but not for 6. > > Why would it be too late ? > > Many, many people (myself included) have used the current Dark Theme for > years, it just works (modulo some minor problems). > > It is a matter of taste, of course, but after 5 major releases with White > Themes, an alternative is more than welcome. > > Sven > > > >

April 15, 2017

why all technical discussions suddenly moved to pharo-users?

by Esteban Lorenzano

that :) I think most discussions now happening on pharo-users belongs here (pharo-users was supposed to help people to achieve their goals with Pharo, not to discuss Pharo implementation;) cheers! Esteban

April 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by Stephane Ducasse

A final point I cannot work with the dark theme. But the interest of Pharo is more important that own little ego. I will try and put a preference if I fail. Why because we need to have a different look for the version and I proposed this change!!!!!! Stef On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand < hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > 2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com>: > >> >> 2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: >> >>> Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly >>> discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. >>> >>> >>> no, this is not how it works. >>> >> >> yes, it is how it could work :) >> >> Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult >> to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. >> But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it >> looks good or not. Voting can work here. >> > > I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this > community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects > (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, > etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time > fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them. > > The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each > new Pharo version. > Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic > Pharo ;) > > HernÃ¡n > >

April 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by Stephane Ducasse

Hi Hernan Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy? Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community. Do you want another example? I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it. Do you want another example? Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people can use it. Do you want another example? Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do? He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). And the FFI is for everbody. Do you want another example? We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost. Do you want more? All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book? I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free. May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have. So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing. Stef On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand < hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > 2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com>: > >> >> 2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: >> >>> Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly >>> discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. >>> >>> >>> no, this is not how it works. >>> >> >> yes, it is how it could work :) >> >> Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult >> to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. >> But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it >> looks good or not. Voting can work here. >> > > I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this > community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects > (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, > etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time > fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them. > > The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each > new Pharo version. > Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic > Pharo ;) > > HernÃ¡n > >

April 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by Cyril Ferlicot D.

Le 15/04/2017 Ã 14:23, Stephan Eggermont a Ã©crit : > On 15/04/17 13:48, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: >> It is a matter of taste, of course, but after 5 major releases with >> White Themes, an alternative is more than welcome. > > Mostly because it is not a matter of taste. For most people (there are > several eye problems where it is not the case), a dark on light theme is > better. The exceptions are well known (keeping night vision, photo/video > processing, a room that is too dark), but there is no reason at all to > make a dark theme default > > Stephan > > It's even better. With it as default more people will report issues. -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr http://www.synectique.eu 2 rue Jacques PrÃ©vert 01, 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France

April 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by Stephan Eggermont

On 15/04/17 13:48, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > It is a matter of taste, of course, but after 5 major releases with White Themes, an alternative is more than welcome. Mostly because it is not a matter of taste. For most people (there are several eye problems where it is not the case), a dark on light theme is better. The exceptions are well known (keeping night vision, photo/video processing, a room that is too dark), but there is no reason at all to make a dark theme default Stephan

April 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by Cyril Ferlicot D.

Can people just explain to my why we have so many big threads each time a default settings is changed? I understand that some settings need a certain default value when it come for discover-ability of a feature. But why so many noise for feature that are totally taste dependent? The principle of settings is that some people will like the default one and some will not like it. That's the point. Why are people so afraid of settings? I have the impression that Pharo has no setting system each time I see those threads. Neverless, I agree that we should have a way at the first launch of Pharo on a computer to let the user define some common settings as Squeak does. It's a really cool feature of most IDEs (like Intellij for example). Probably too late for Pharo 6, but not for Pharo 7. I am just a little tired to see this many noise for things like that. -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr http://www.synectique.eu 2 rue Jacques PrÃ©vert 01, 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France

April 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 15 Apr 2017, at 13:41, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > > On 14/04/17 09:09, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: >> I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0. >> This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) ) > > > No. Please revert that decision. It is too late. You can try that for 7, and then have the discussions, but not for 6. Why would it be too late ? Many, many people (myself included) have used the current Dark Theme for years, it just works (modulo some minor problems). It is a matter of taste, of course, but after 5 major releases with White Themes, an alternative is more than welcome. Sven

April 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by Stephan Eggermont

On 15/04/17 10:19, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > I am a huge supporter of Dark Themes, they are friendlier to the health > of the eye and much friendlier to the environment too. Their objective > value cannot be questioned. But as always personal taste plays a role here. All science shows otherwise. Stephan

April 15, 2017