April 2017 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Remove all Configurations in the Pharo 6 release?

by Cyril Ferlicot D.

On 15/04/2017 23:08, Tudor Girba wrote: > Hi, > > I do not quite understand the benefit of removing Configurations in Pharo 6. Is there a benefit that I do not see? > > Cheers, > Doru > > If you have a project depending on another project that got his configuration in the image, the configuration will not be updated if you do not do it explicitly. We found with Pavel that the version of MooseAlgo used by Moose was outdated because ConfigurationOfMooseAlgos was in the image with 5-6 commits late. Users should not have to update the configuration of the dependencies of their project by hand in their builds because Pharo has old configurations inside the image. -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr http://www.synectique.eu 2 rue Jacques PrÃ©vert 01, 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France

April 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Remove all Configurations in the Pharo 6 release?

by Alexandre Bergel

I understand that since the whole development will be Git-based, then the configurations will be pretty much obsolete. Alexandre > On Apr 15, 2017, at 6:08 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > I do not quite understand the benefit of removing Configurations in Pharo 6. Is there a benefit that I do not see? > > Cheers, > Doru > > > >> On Apr 14, 2017, at 2:24 PM, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> 2017-04-14 14:20 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <chisvasileandrei(a)gmail.com>: >> >> >> On Apr 14, 2017 14:13, "Pavel Krivanek" <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> 2017-04-14 12:52 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <chisvasileandrei(a)gmail.com>: >> Isn't it a bit too late for such a change? Might break projects that expect configurations to be present. >> >> I do not think so. We do not have configurations for the system itself (well, we have them in an external repository but they are not update since switch to baselines). They are used only for the actively maintained semi-external projects like GT, QA, Epicea, Zinc etc. However even in that case they are sometimes out-of-sync with the upstream. >> >> Most users of such configurations are using the upstream configurations. If some one is using wrongly the versions in Pharo, he uses reference to the Pharo repository where the configurations will still be present. >> >> For the record, I still think it's not the best idea to do this now :) >> >> Probably :-) In the end, the users that have troubles with it can easily do it during preparations of their images too. >> >> -- Pavel >> >> >> Cheers, >> Andrei >> >> >> Cheers, >> -- Pavel >> >> >> Cheers, >> Andrei >> >> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Hi, >> >> in Pharo 7 all configurations will be removed and replaced with the baselines. The bootstrapped image itself does not load the configurations at all. Most of them is now outdated and old versions of configurations in the standard Pharo image can cause problems for users of newer versions semi-internal packages (like Moose-Algos). >> >> So we, me and Cyril think that we should remove all current Configurations from the image just before the Pharo 6 release. Do you see any disadvantages of this step? >> >> Cheers, >> -- Pavel > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with." > > -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

April 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Remove all Configurations in the Pharo 6 release?

by Tudor Girba

Hi, I do not quite understand the benefit of removing Configurations in Pharo 6. Is there a benefit that I do not see? Cheers, Doru > On Apr 14, 2017, at 2:24 PM, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > 2017-04-14 14:20 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <chisvasileandrei(a)gmail.com>: > > > On Apr 14, 2017 14:13, "Pavel Krivanek" <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > 2017-04-14 12:52 GMT+02:00 Andrei Chis <chisvasileandrei(a)gmail.com>: > Isn't it a bit too late for such a change? Might break projects that expect configurations to be present. > > I do not think so. We do not have configurations for the system itself (well, we have them in an external repository but they are not update since switch to baselines). They are used only for the actively maintained semi-external projects like GT, QA, Epicea, Zinc etc. However even in that case they are sometimes out-of-sync with the upstream. > > Most users of such configurations are using the upstream configurations. If some one is using wrongly the versions in Pharo, he uses reference to the Pharo repository where the configurations will still be present. > > For the record, I still think it's not the best idea to do this now :) > > Probably :-) In the end, the users that have troubles with it can easily do it during preparations of their images too. > > -- Pavel > > > Cheers, > Andrei > > > Cheers, > -- Pavel > > > Cheers, > Andrei > > On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > in Pharo 7 all configurations will be removed and replaced with the baselines. The bootstrapped image itself does not load the configurations at all. Most of them is now outdated and old versions of configurations in the standard Pharo image can cause problems for users of newer versions semi-internal packages (like Moose-Algos). > > So we, me and Cyril think that we should remove all current Configurations from the image just before the Pharo 6 release. Do you see any disadvantages of this step? > > Cheers, > -- Pavel -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."

April 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] patching vmmaker

by ClÃ©ment Bera

Hi, The main VMMaker repo is on http:/source.squeak/org/VMMaker, not on smalltalkhub. The repo is common with other programming languages than Pharo. To integrate your changes into the main repo you may send a mail to vm-dev (in CC). If you plan to commit frequently in the VMMaker repository you may ask for commit rights on the repo. Alternatively you may hope that someone with rights will look into your changes. Any change that break one of the builds (including all platforms, programming languages supported, vm versions) that has no massive impact on the VM (performance, stability or feature) is usually ignored. The opensmalltalk-vm github repo contains the generated C sources and most builds (all builds except some oddities like the android version that is not obvious to build with free build frameworks) are generated automatically from this repo using common build frameworks (travis, appveyor). On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:34 AM, K K Subbu <kksubbu.ml(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > While building the VM from generator.image through eval handler, I noticed > spurious blank lines in the log output. I created a changeset that removes > these and creates a compact log (all in VMMaker package). > > My generator.image only throws up local repos for MC. smalltalkhub.com > seems to be down. How do I upload the patch to VMMaker mainline? > > Regards .. Subbu >

April 15, 2017

patching vmmaker

by K K Subbu

Hi, While building the VM from generator.image through eval handler, I noticed spurious blank lines in the log output. I created a changeset that removes these and creates a compact log (all in VMMaker package). My generator.image only throws up local repos for MC. smalltalkhub.com seems to be down. How do I upload the patch to VMMaker mainline? Regards .. Subbu

April 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by phil＠highoctane.be

Bah, I made GTSpotter dark theme work with SublimishTheme and got the "yeah, for Pharo7". It is pissing me off but what can I say, just follow what is released. Compare Pharo 1 and Pharo 6. Worlds apart. I hope this continues. Phil On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand < hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more > clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative? > > We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you > like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there > is more voice for the "small minority". > > 2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com>: > >> Hi Hernan >> >> Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy? >> >> Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** >> and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and >> that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. >> Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and >> we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. >> We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community. >> >> Do you want another example? >> I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot >> script well enough the model. And versionner was made >> for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it. >> >> Do you want another example? >> Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build >> a system that other people >> can use it. >> >> Do you want another example? >> Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI >> nabive boost does not so what do we do? >> He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor >> would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). >> And the FFI is for everbody. >> >> Do you want another example? >> We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that >> we can make sure that the three yars >> effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost. >> >> Do you want more? >> All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a >> book? >> >> I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing >> it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I >> lost) and the mooc is free. >> >> May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have. >> >> So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can >> rant in your corner. >> But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are >> sharing all the things that we are doing. >> >> Stef >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand < >> hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> 2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com>: >>> >>>> >>>> 2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: >>>> >>>>> Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly >>>>> discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> no, this is not how it works. >>>>> >>>> >>>> yes, it is how it could work :) >>>> >>>> Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is >>>> difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. >>>> But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is >>>> it looks good or not. Voting can work here. >>>> >>> >>> I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in >>> this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects >>> (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, >>> etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time >>> fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them. >>> >>> The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with >>> each new Pharo version. >>> Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic >>> Pharo ;) >>> >>> HernÃ¡n >>> >>> >> >

April 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by Pavel Krivanek

BTW, if you open the welcome help that users will see after opening of Pharo 6, you will realize, that switching of the theme to white one is matter of one click: WelcomeHelp openForRelease Cheers, -- Pavel 2017-04-15 18:18 GMT+02:00 HernÃ¡n Morales Durand <hernan.morales(a)gmail.com>: > Hey Hilaire, > > Not afraid at all, because I know where the changes come from. > > Take a look at the SmalltalkHub users/projects and how many contribute > back to pharo-dev and you will understand. > > HernÃ¡n > > > 2017-04-15 11:04 GMT-03:00 Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu>: > >> May be Herman is expressing some level of frustrations resulting from >> important changes occurring in the system release after release. >> Your listing of changes may afraid him even more ;-) >> >> From my point of view, Pharo is changing too fast to follow what's up >> and to adapt code. I am still lagging with Pharo3 on Dr.Geo :) But I am >> only an amateur programmer, professional programmer may fell just fine >> with this pace of change. >> >> But anyway, because of its energy and community, Pharo is definitely the >> best free Smalltalk horse around. >> >> Hilaire >> >> Le 15/04/2017 Ã 14:30, Stephane Ducasse a Ã©crit : >> > Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy? >> > >> >> -- >> Dr. Geo >> http://drgeo.eu >> >> >> >

April 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by HernÃ¡n Morales Durand

Hey Hilaire, Not afraid at all, because I know where the changes come from. Take a look at the SmalltalkHub users/projects and how many contribute back to pharo-dev and you will understand. HernÃ¡n 2017-04-15 11:04 GMT-03:00 Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu>: > May be Herman is expressing some level of frustrations resulting from > important changes occurring in the system release after release. > Your listing of changes may afraid him even more ;-) > > From my point of view, Pharo is changing too fast to follow what's up > and to adapt code. I am still lagging with Pharo3 on Dr.Geo :) But I am > only an amateur programmer, professional programmer may fell just fine > with this pace of change. > > But anyway, because of its energy and community, Pharo is definitely the > best free Smalltalk horse around. > > Hilaire > > Le 15/04/2017 Ã 14:30, Stephane Ducasse a Ã©crit : > > Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy? > > > > -- > Dr. Geo > http://drgeo.eu > > >

April 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by Stephane Ducasse

There is no voting for such default. Why because this is marketing! I do not like the black theme but I find the white one not good either. And we need to have a different look. So you will add a preference script to set it back to white and perfect. I fully agree with Cyril. If one day we set a model it will be the one of avogado and with weight based on contribution. Stef On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand < hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more > clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative? > > We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you > like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there > is more voice for the "small minority". > > 2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com>: > >> Hi Hernan >> >> Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy? >> >> Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** >> and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and >> that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. >> Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and >> we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. >> We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community. >> >> Do you want another example? >> I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot >> script well enough the model. And versionner was made >> for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it. >> >> Do you want another example? >> Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build >> a system that other people >> can use it. >> >> Do you want another example? >> Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI >> nabive boost does not so what do we do? >> He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor >> would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). >> And the FFI is for everbody. >> >> Do you want another example? >> We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that >> we can make sure that the three yars >> effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost. >> >> Do you want more? >> All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a >> book? >> >> I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing >> it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I >> lost) and the mooc is free. >> >> May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have. >> >> So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can >> rant in your corner. >> But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are >> sharing all the things that we are doing. >> >> Stef >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand < >> hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> 2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com>: >>> >>>> >>>> 2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: >>>> >>>>> Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly >>>>> discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> no, this is not how it works. >>>>> >>>> >>>> yes, it is how it could work :) >>>> >>>> Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is >>>> difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. >>>> But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is >>>> it looks good or not. Voting can work here. >>>> >>> >>> I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in >>> this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects >>> (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, >>> etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time >>> fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them. >>> >>> The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with >>> each new Pharo version. >>> Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic >>> Pharo ;) >>> >>> HernÃ¡n >>> >>> >> >

April 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by Stephane Ducasse

Hilaire We are porting Moose in max two days for each version and it is around 150 packages. Now if you want to be able to use Athens then one guy as to fix FFI if you want to use Spur, 64bits..... So such kind of rants are totally useless, counterproductive and our community deserves more. I worked 4 months to write a project proposal to bring money in the community and new people and I may lose all my efforts if the project is not accepted and when I see such kind of behavior. I'm just thinking that it is UNFAIR!!!! Stef On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:04 PM, Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu> wrote: > May be Herman is expressing some level of frustrations resulting from > important changes occurring in the system release after release. > Your listing of changes may afraid him even more ;-) > > From my point of view, Pharo is changing too fast to follow what's up > and to adapt code. I am still lagging with Pharo3 on Dr.Geo :) But I am > only an amateur programmer, professional programmer may fell just fine > with this pace of change. > > But anyway, because of its energy and community, Pharo is definitely the > best free Smalltalk horse around. > > Hilaire > > Le 15/04/2017 Ã 14:30, Stephane Ducasse a Ã©crit : > > Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy? > > > > -- > Dr. Geo > http://drgeo.eu > > >

April 15, 2017