April 2017 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by Stephan Eggermont

On 16/04/17 23:27, Cyril Ferlicot D. wrote: > On 16/04/2017 23:13, Stephan Eggermont wrote: >> We do not break things a week before the release. We break them a week >> after the release. Otherwise, why bother. >> >> Stephan >> > > As I asked in my previous mail, what is broken? There are 214 instances of the text 'Color white' and 210 of 'Color black' in a 60450 image. Moose images have 1.5 to 2 as many Stephan

April 16, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by Cyril Ferlicot D.

On 16/04/2017 23:13, Stephan Eggermont wrote: > We do not break things a week before the release. We break them a week > after the release. Otherwise, why bother. > > Stephan > As I asked in my previous mail, what is broken? In Pharo 4 there is broken things. In Pharo 6 I don't see what is broken. Maybe that if we see that there is indeed things broken that you can list it will wait P7. For now I see 0 issue on dark theme on fogbugz. -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr http://www.synectique.eu 2 rue Jacques PrÃ©vert 01, 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France

April 16, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Remove all Configurations in the Pharo 6 release?

by Stephan Eggermont

On 16/04/17 16:14, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > Just for the record the easiest way to load packages in the image the > Package Browser relies solely on configurations . Is there a plan to > migrate because as much I am vocal supporter of Pharo moving to git it > will be a big lose if Package Browser is not ported . Which browser do you mean? Catalog? That generally does not work well because it cannot deal with combinations of configurations. Stephan

April 16, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by Stephan Eggermont

On 16/04/17 20:53, Cyril Ferlicot D. wrote: > Also, I use the dark theme since almost two years and I don't remember > having problems. Do you have examples? Within two minutes I found a non-themed visualization in Moose. The switching works a lot better than last time I looked at dark theme. Stephan

April 16, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by Stephan Eggermont

On 16/04/17 20:53, Cyril Ferlicot D. wrote: > And last, when a new version of a programming language is out, we do not > expect all applications to be up to date with the language at the time > of the release. We do not break things a week before the release. We break them a week after the release. Otherwise, why bother. Stephan

April 16, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by Dimitris Chloupis

Yes it's actually more than that. It's called Nireas and I think it's the only theme that comes with its own GUI that allows to customize its colors , so it's very flexible. It's available at Package Browser On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 at 21:53, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > did you publish the blue theme as an autonomous package? > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Me too, even my blue theme is nothing more than a customization of dark >> theme. Plus dark theme is based on darcula dark theme which is by far the >> most popular dark theme out there. >> On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 at 14:27, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> clement esteban is using the dark theme since several years!!!! >>> phil too. >>> No new code! >>> >>> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:35 AM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Isn't a couple days before release a bit late to change the default >>>> theme ? Aren't we in feature freeze mode ? >>>> >>>> If for marketing it makes sense to switch to the dark theme, then let's >>>> switch to dark theme. But why not switching for Pharo 7 instead ? >>>> Instability is bad for marketing anyway, isn't it ? >>>> >>>> I don't mind for myself, I will always switch back with user settings >>>> to the light theme it's more about the general perception of Pharo >>>> stability. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:31 AM, phil(a)highoctane.be < >>>> phil(a)highoctane.be> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Bah, I made GTSpotter dark theme work with SublimishTheme and got the >>>>> "yeah, for Pharo7". >>>>> >>>>> It is pissing me off but what can I say, just follow what is released. >>>>> >>>>> Compare Pharo 1 and Pharo 6. Worlds apart. I hope this continues. >>>>> >>>>> Phil >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand < >>>>> hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it >>>>>> more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative? >>>>>> >>>>>> We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes >>>>>> you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find >>>>>> there is more voice for the "small minority". >>>>>> >>>>>> 2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com>: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Hernan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research >>>>>>> purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was >>>>>>> needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and >>>>>>> the view. >>>>>>> Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) >>>>>>> and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. >>>>>>> We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do you want another example? >>>>>>> I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he >>>>>>> cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made >>>>>>> for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do you want another example? >>>>>>> Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to >>>>>>> build a system that other people >>>>>>> can use it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do you want another example? >>>>>>> Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and >>>>>>> FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do? >>>>>>> He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that >>>>>>> igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). >>>>>>> And the FFI is for everbody. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do you want another example? >>>>>>> We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure >>>>>>> that we can make sure that the three yars >>>>>>> effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do you want more? >>>>>>> All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to >>>>>>> write a book? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned >>>>>>> doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per >>>>>>> hour I lost) and the mooc is free. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they >>>>>>> have. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and >>>>>>> you can rant in your corner. >>>>>>> But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are >>>>>>> sharing all the things that we are doing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Stef >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand < >>>>>>> hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com>: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> : >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly >>>>>>>>>> discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> no, this is not how it works. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> yes, it is how it could work :) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is >>>>>>>>> difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. >>>>>>>>> But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have >>>>>>>>> impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago >>>>>>>> in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects >>>>>>>> (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, >>>>>>>> etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time >>>>>>>> fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff >>>>>>>> with each new Pharo version. >>>>>>>> Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more >>>>>>>> democratic Pharo ;) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> HernÃ¡n >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >

April 16, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by Cyril Ferlicot D.

On 16/04/2017 20:31, Stephan Eggermont wrote: > Sorry, but that does not make sense to me. I've only heard complaints > about dependent projects not honoring theme color settings, and I've > never been able to switch themes actually work without leaving artifacts > behind. I agree it makes sense to fix that, and I'm all in favor of > temporarily switching default to black in 7. I strongly oppose switching > themes now. > > Stephan > > > Hi, There is still some glitches on theme change but most of them have been corrected in Pharo 6. Also, I use the dark theme since almost two years and I don't remember having problems. Do you have examples? And last, when a new version of a programming language is out, we do not expect all applications to be up to date with the language at the time of the release. -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr http://www.synectique.eu 2 rue Jacques PrÃ©vert 01, 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France

April 16, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by Stephane Ducasse

did you publish the blue theme as an autonomous package? On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Me too, even my blue theme is nothing more than a customization of dark > theme. Plus dark theme is based on darcula dark theme which is by far the > most popular dark theme out there. > On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 at 14:27, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> clement esteban is using the dark theme since several years!!!! >> phil too. >> No new code! >> >> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:35 AM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Isn't a couple days before release a bit late to change the default >>> theme ? Aren't we in feature freeze mode ? >>> >>> If for marketing it makes sense to switch to the dark theme, then let's >>> switch to dark theme. But why not switching for Pharo 7 instead ? >>> Instability is bad for marketing anyway, isn't it ? >>> >>> I don't mind for myself, I will always switch back with user settings to >>> the light theme it's more about the general perception of Pharo stability. >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:31 AM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> Bah, I made GTSpotter dark theme work with SublimishTheme and got the >>>> "yeah, for Pharo7". >>>> >>>> It is pissing me off but what can I say, just follow what is released. >>>> >>>> Compare Pharo 1 and Pharo 6. Worlds apart. I hope this continues. >>>> >>>> Phil >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand < >>>> hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it >>>>> more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative? >>>>> >>>>> We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes >>>>> you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find >>>>> there is more voice for the "small minority". >>>>> >>>>> 2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com>: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Hernan >>>>>> >>>>>> Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy? >>>>>> >>>>>> Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research >>>>>> purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was >>>>>> needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and >>>>>> the view. >>>>>> Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) >>>>>> and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. >>>>>> We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community. >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you want another example? >>>>>> I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he >>>>>> cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made >>>>>> for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you want another example? >>>>>> Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to >>>>>> build a system that other people >>>>>> can use it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you want another example? >>>>>> Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI >>>>>> nabive boost does not so what do we do? >>>>>> He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that >>>>>> igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). >>>>>> And the FFI is for everbody. >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you want another example? >>>>>> We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure >>>>>> that we can make sure that the three yars >>>>>> effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost. >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you want more? >>>>>> All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to >>>>>> write a book? >>>>>> >>>>>> I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned >>>>>> doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per >>>>>> hour I lost) and the mooc is free. >>>>>> >>>>>> May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they >>>>>> have. >>>>>> >>>>>> So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you >>>>>> can rant in your corner. >>>>>> But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are >>>>>> sharing all the things that we are doing. >>>>>> >>>>>> Stef >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand < >>>>>> hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com>: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly >>>>>>>>> discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> no, this is not how it works. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> yes, it is how it could work :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is >>>>>>>> difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. >>>>>>>> But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression >>>>>>>> is it looks good or not. Voting can work here. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago >>>>>>> in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects >>>>>>> (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, >>>>>>> etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time >>>>>>> fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with >>>>>>> each new Pharo version. >>>>>>> Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more >>>>>>> democratic Pharo ;) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> HernÃ¡n >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>

April 16, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] Remove all Configurations in the Pharo 6 release?

by Cyril Ferlicot D.

On 16/04/2017 08:54, Tudor Girba wrote: > However, Configurations are useful in offering people a way to understand how the code is organized. For example, in Moose we have the inspector extension that shows the dependencies and it is very valuable. > > The only thing we need is to Metacello to be able to load new versions of the configuration/baseline. > Hi, This is already possible via the method #get. But, IMO, the user should not have to do that with a fresh Pharo image. > Cheers, > Doru > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > âThe smaller and more pervasive the hardware becomes, the more physical the software gets." > > -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr http://www.synectique.eu 2 rue Jacques PrÃ©vert 01, 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France

April 16, 2017

Re: [Pharo-dev] changing default theme to DarkTheme

by HernÃ¡n Morales Durand

Hi Norbert, 2017-04-16 13:28 GMT-03:00 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name>: > I wonder why voting is considered something good. To me voting is rather a > last resort strategy. > Voting is taking power without the need for having an opinion nor any > reason. To me the sense of voting is to make most people feel > empowered/comfortable. And the outcome is often poor or even contradictory. > > On the contrary, voting is a good measure of the wisdom and education of the community. Voting is a way to get people who seek absolute power and tyrants out of the road. Because a man without a vote is a man without protection. Because voting and prevents the cult of ignorance promoted by the Open-Source lemma of the "benevolent dictatorship". That post-modern notion of benevolent dictatorship will solve things is terrible. HernÃ¡n my 2 cents, > > Norbert > > > Am 16.04.2017 um 17:49 schrieb Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com>: > > > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 8:01 PM, Cyril Ferlicot D. < > cyril.ferlicot(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Can people just explain to my why we have so many big threads each time >> a default settings is changed? >> > > Law of triviality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality > Because its natural to have personal preferences/opinions and easy > to bike-shed about those. I'm as guilty as the next guy. > > btw, I'm in favour of the board making these sorts of executive decisions > rather than voting. > Sure if a vote was 90% against the dark theme it would seem strange to go > against it, > but what if it was only 51%. I don't imagine that result really smoothing > community sentiment. > Now what about 55% or 60%? Where you draw the line now becomes an > executive decision. > > So sometimes its more efficient to just move than have continuous > discussions. Also there may > be a bigger picture to bring in more users/money (aka marketting) which we > don't hear > the details of. But people do need an opportunity to vent so the board > are not blind > to community sentiment. So just roll with it. > > cheers -ben > > >> >> I understand that some settings need a certain default value when it >> come for discover-ability of a feature. But why so many noise for >> feature that are totally taste dependent? The principle of settings is >> that some people will like the default one and some will not like it. >> That's the point. >> >> Why are people so afraid of settings? I have the impression that Pharo >> has no setting system each time I see those threads. >> >> Neverless, I agree that we should have a way at the first launch of >> Pharo on a computer to let the user define some common settings as >> Squeak does. It's a really cool feature of most IDEs (like Intellij for >> example). Probably too late for Pharo 6, but not for Pharo 7. >> >> I am just a little tired to see this many noise for things like that. >> >> -- >> Cyril Ferlicot >> https://ferlicot.fr >> >> http://www.synectique.eu >> 2 rue Jacques PrÃ©vert 01, >> 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France >> >> >

April 16, 2017